BYD School Bus

[brenndatomu]

transportation overlords

Nailed it

 

[SpaceBus]

I'm not against EV's, but my point is a mad rush to "get it done" is crazy.
No, there are no "great" improvements in cleaner mining for lithium,yet. Plus, do you think other countries will adopt them? Nope. So, in our mad rush to electrify, we will cause much more pollution and destruction around the world. Currently, Canada already has less stringent regulations on lithium mining than the USA.
No, there is not "plenty of energy,power production". Especially "greener" or cleaner production. The reports how-- lets just take Cali.-- that just to meet their stringent 2025 regulations, they will have to expect more shortages, and power outages. Just think, they are making all small engines banned. Chain saws, lawn mowers, riding mowers, smaller tractors. If they wan to meet their 2050 goal of no ICE's, or even their 2035 goals, they should have been building Nuke plants 10 years ago. Plus, they have blocked smaller, "on-site" NG generation sites,(the most logical thing) for many years. Our state is an electricity over producer, for many years, BUT, because of circumstances, many have moved here. We sell our excess, but, there shall be much less to sell. I see problems in Cali's immediate future. Along with shutting down power generation, removing dams, on the west coast states. But, that is just a small part of the problem. On a side note, yes, in our state, as power transmission lines and facilities need repairs, they have been/being upgraded,expanded and hardened against EMP.
I see ICE's being needed for, at least, the next 100 years.
Yes, a certain group would love to densely pack everyone within cities, restricting their lives even more. But that is backfiring already, because of the increases crime they promote, and raising people and business taxes and regulations, along with an open border, increasing crime all over, but mostly in cities.
"What if's, could,can.may" are pretty much useless sayings at this point, but are well used by people rushing things.

I just don't get this "much more pollution" thing. You are also assuming CA wouldn't have power issues without the move to green energy. As with most things, this is an old problem.

Now you are talking about civic planning, but clearly have no education in the area. Per capita crime rates are lower in cities than rural areas, but have higher raw numbers. This is just a numbers game, but urban areas are safer than rural.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...w-york-city-more-dangerous-than-rural-america

Why wouldn't lithium mining change? Less water use means less expensive mining ops, so it is a win win.

How many peer reviewed or otherwise academic level studies have you read on this topic? All of the available data says the opposite of what you are saying about EVs.

Most of your criticisms are the same that automobiles faced in their own infancy, along with any tech that seeks to disrupt the status quo. Think about all the jobs that will be lost in the transition to EVs, all the people that will need to be retrained. There's a lot of opposition to changing any status quo.

 

[semipro]

I'm not against EV's, but my point is a mad rush to "get it done" is crazy.

Despite my optimism for EVs in general I tend to agree with this. I'm worried we're moving too fast and may end up shooting ourselves in the foot. I hope I'm wrong.

Another good read below, unexpectedly from Motortrend of all places.

You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

Sorry, that meme you just retweeted isn't correct.

www.motortrend.com

 

[woodgeek]

Plus, do you think other countries will adopt them? Nope.

I'm sorry, you are uninformed. In fact the two other largest car markets in the world are buying far MORE EVs that we are: China and Europe are both well ahead of us in EV adoption, by a significant multiple.

The best selling car in all of Germany the end of last year? The Tesla Model Y.

The US car makers (and the govt) are fostering the EV industry here (including supply chains) bc if they don't we won't be able to compete in the global auto market in a few years.

We are not in a mad rush to EVs in the US... we are bringing up the rear.

 

[SpaceBus]

Regardless of how anyone feels about the environmentally friendliness of EVs, they are taking all of the market share. The range anxiety complaints are getting pretty tired at this point as well.

 

[Mt Bob]

I'm sorry, you are uninformed. In fact the two other largest car markets in the world are buying far MORE EVs that we are: China and Europe are both well ahead of us in EV adoption, by a significant multiple.

The best selling car in all of Germany the end of last year? The Tesla Model Y.

The US car makers (and the govt) are fostering the EV industry here (including supply chains) bc if they don't we won't be able to compete in the global auto market in a few years.

We are not in a mad rush to EVs in the US... we are bringing up the rear.

Apparently your reading skills lack. That statement was about adopting cleaner mining. Let me know how that works out in China and others.

 

[woodgeek]

Apparently your reading skills lack. That statement was about adopting cleaner mining. Let me know how that works out in China and others.

Apologies. Are you implying that it would be a problem for us to have environmental laws that are more stringent than other countries? Or just arguing that EVs are an environmental disaster no matter what we do?

 

[SpaceBus]

Apologies. Are you implying that it would be a problem for us to have environmental laws that are more stringent than other countries? Or just arguing that EVs are an environmental disaster no matter what we do?

Anything to avoid change I suppose...

 

[SpaceBus]

Apparently your reading skills lack. That statement was about adopting cleaner mining. Let me know how that works out in China and others.

You could have said this without being a dick, and it says a lot about you.

 

[woodgeek]

Despite my optimism for EVs in general I tend to agree with this. I'm worried we're moving too fast and may end up shooting ourselves in the foot. I hope I'm wrong.

Another good read below, unexpectedly from Motortrend of all places.

You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

Sorry, that meme you just retweeted isn't correct.

www.motortrend.com

Nice article. I liked the stat that the energy required to make an EV battery (including the mining and refining) is the same as the energy in 74 gallons of gasoline.

 

[Mt Bob]

You could have said this without being a dick, and it says a lot about you.

Ya I get edgy when people manipulate words/sentences to suit their needs, even if it destroys the meaning/truth.

 

[SpaceBus]

Nice article. I liked the stat that the energy required to make an EV battery (including the mining and refining) is the same as the energy in 74 gallons of gasoline.

Sounds like a pretty obvious environmental win if you ask me. The "returns on investment" in regards to the environment happen very quickly.

The rest isn't really directed at you, just in general regarding anti-EV propaganda.

Once economies of scale take over ICE will look antiquated and foolish. If development in energy storage is anything like what ICE saw in the last fifty years, this will all be a non issue. Batteries and electric motors will become so cheap, efficient, and scalable to be used in pretty much any application that would have involved ICE. Which is a long way to say that the big fossil fuel industry players are going to lose money because their assets are becoming increasingly worthless as the transition away from fossil fuels continues. This should really make you question any rhetoric that insists that using fossil fuels is a good thing. Proliferation of renewable energy combined with cheap and efficient energy storage pretty much seals the fate for the entire fossil fuel industry. It won't be long until aviation and shipping also divorce themselves from the toxic fuels as well.

 

[semipro]

Once economies of scale take over ICE will look antiquated and foolish. If development in energy storage is anything like what ICE saw in the last fifty years, this will all be a non issue. Batteries and electric motors will become so cheap, efficient, and scalable to be used in pretty much any application that would have involved ICE. Which is a long way to say that the big fossil fuel industry players are going to lose money because their assets are becoming increasingly worthless as the transition away from fossil fuels continues. This should really make you question any rhetoric that insists that using fossil fuels is a good thing. Proliferation of renewable energy combined with cheap and efficient energy storage pretty much seals the fate for the entire fossil fuel industry. It won't be long until aviation and shipping also divorce themselves from the toxic fuels as well.

As we move towards expanding our use of electricity as a way of conveying power for transportation I suspect we'll see the FF industry move towards providing more power to a hungry grid as an attempt to stay relevant.
This is similarly occurring as FFs like natural gas are being tapped as feedstock for "blue" hydrogen production.
At some point, I think that FFs will be relegated to producing chemical products rather than power.

 

[woodgeek]

Ya I get edgy when people manipulate words/sentences to suit their needs, even if it destroys the meaning/truth.

And sometimes people just don't understand what is being referred to upthread, esp if they have limited reading comprehension.

 

[begreen]

As we move towards expanding our use of electricity as a way of conveying power for transportation I suspect we'll see the FF industry move towards providing more power to a hungry grid as an attempt to stay relevant.
This is similarly occurring as FFs like natural gas are being tapped as feedstock for "blue" hydrogen production.
At some point, I think that FFs will be relegated to producing chemical products rather than power.

We can only hope, but you may need to hold your breath, especially if near a refinery. What the FF industry is actually doing is dramatically increasing plastics production to compensate. In real terms global CO2 emissions are increasing at a high rate still.

 

[stoveliker]

Yes, they are just focusing on finding new markets, or increasing markets other than fuel for transportation to keep selling oil.

I hope plastics get more attention from science; we ought (as in *have to*) find other materials that could replace these. Plastics are incredibly useful, but incredibly damaging to the earth system.
Recycling is good for resource conservation, but not much of a help against pollution.

 

[begreen]

Scientific American and Nature had a good evaluation of the plastics industry and spotlighted Mango Materials as a promising alternative and solution to this complex problem. Amazingly, as a kid, I grew up with almost no plastics. We did ok without them.

Mango Materials was featured in Nature article | Mango Materials

Mango Materials was included in a recent article in Nature Outlook: The Circular Economy called “How to make plastic less of an environmental burden”. The article discusses the lack of recycling of plastics and how P3HB can be a solution to the plastic pollution problem. To read the full...

www.mangomaterials.com

 

[semipro]

The range anxiety complaints are getting pretty tired at this point as well.

As an EV driver it's not so much uncertainty about range but more the question of whether I can find an available and functioning charger. The few times I've had an range anxiety were brought on only because of the lack of an available working charger.
My range is effectively cut in half if the only charger I can depend on is at home.
I have high hopes that federal BIL funds and other commercial efforts will go a long way towards addressing this issue.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I'm pretty sure I've been told on this board that that's an unfounded fear and that anywhere you should want to go should have plenty of chargers available because plenty of chargers exist where they live.

 

[woodgeek]

I'm pretty sure I've been told on this board that that's an unfounded fear and that anywhere you should want to go should have plenty of chargers available because plenty of chargers exist where they live.

Haha. No.

I think of it the way that my Dad used to plan roadtrips when I was a kid. He would go to AAA and get one of those long squiggly maps with the route in a green line, and all the motels booked in advance over the phone. He was not the kind of person to just jump in the car, follow the highway signs and look for a lit vacancy sign when he felt like stopping.

So when I am going in 2023, shortly before I leave, I use the ABRP app to route me (like AAA), and then open an app (or two) to check that the selected DCFC units are well-rated (good uptime), appear to be online NOW, and not all occupied (like calling ahead to book your hotels). Except in practice this takes a minute or two in my living room, way easier than what my Dad had to do.

And yes, when I am doing the above, I look at 'plan B' options if the DCFC I am planning on using is broken or full. In the latter case, one can just wait a few minutes, but in practice it is usually quicker to go to the next station on the route rather than wait.

How are the DCFCs around here.... on the I-95 corridor they are pretty good and getting better.
--Southbound Philly to Virginia, lots of good choices that were working fine.
--Eastbound to the Jersey shore, I can get to the Atlantic and back without charging. There is a single DCFC along the route in case I needed it. When I went to Cape May, there are no DCFCs down there, so I did some 120V charging and found an L2 before I had to drive home.
--Northbound from Philly, currently things are a little sketchy, but should be better soon. The NJ turnpike was an early adopter of DCFC, but that means their units are older, lower power and already obsolete. So currently they are all offline (and the rest stops are being renovated too, several are closed). But there is a great 10 stall station at a Walmart about 30 miles south of NYC, so I go there. Problem: its only 70 miles from my home, so I don't need to charge there outbound (I use it on the return leg). On the other side of NYC (like 130-150 miles from my home), there are a few smaller stations scattered around, one with 4 stalls, and a couple others with one or two. And given the traffic chokepoint they are all quite busy. But I know them all well now. And NYC itself is (as it always has been) a DCFC desert, which is annoying.
--Southern New England is just OK, but some of the units on the Mass pike are getting older and more congested, they need to be upgraded/upsized. Cape Cod is a bit of desert... only one DCFC stall on the Cape last year, in Hyannis, but a couple more under construction.
--Westbound from Philly to Pittsburg was impossible in the past, now is apparently doable with some sketchy looking stations, haven't tried it yet. I did go up into the Poconos, and did most of my charging on 120V overnight with an extension cord run out my hotel window.

None of the above bothers me in the slightest... everything is growing leaps and bounds. On my first EV roadtrip in 2015, my car had a 75 mile HW range (versus 200-220 now), and there were just 2 DCFC stalls total between Philly and NYC (100 miles away), and they ran at 25 kW on a good day, when they worked at all.

 

[EbS-P]

Haha. No.

I think of it the way that my Dad used to plan roadtrips when I was a kid. He would go to AAA and get one of those long squiggly maps with the route in a green line, and all the motels booked in advance over the phone. He was not the kind of person to just jump in the car, follow the highway signs and look for a lit vacancy sign when he felt like stopping.

So when I am going in 2023, shortly before I leave, I use the ABRP app to route me (like AAA), and then open an app (or two) to check that the selected DCFC units are well-rated (good uptime), appear to be online NOW, and not all occupied (like calling ahead to book your hotels). Except in practice this takes a minute or two in my living room, way easier than what my Dad had to do.

And yes, when I am doing the above, I look at 'plan B' options if the DCFC I am planning on using is broken or full. In the latter case, one can just wait a few minutes, but in practice it is usually quicker to go to the next station on the route rather than wait.

How are the DCFCs around here.... on the I-95 corridor they are pretty good and getting better.
--Southbound Philly to Virginia, lots of good choices that were working fine.
--Eastbound to the Jersey shore, I can get to the Atlantic and back without charging. There is a single DCFC along the route in case I needed it. When I went to Cape May, there are no DCFCs down there, so I did some 120V charging and found an L2 before I had to drive home.
--Northbound from Philly, currently things are a little sketchy, but should be better soon. The NJ turnpike was an early adopter of DCFC, but that means their units are older, lower power and already obsolete. So currently they are all offline (and the rest stops are being renovated too, several are closed). But there is a great 10 stall station at a Walmart about 30 miles south of NYC, so I go there. Problem: its only 70 miles from my home, so I don't need to charge there outbound (I use it on the return leg). On the other side of NYC (like 130-150 miles from my home), there are a few smaller stations scattered around, one with 4 stalls, and a couple others with one or two. And given the traffic chokepoint they are all quite busy. But I know them all well now. And NYC itself is (as it always has been) a DCFC desert, which is annoying.
--Southern New England is just OK, but some of the units on the Mass pike are getting older and more congested, they need to be upgraded/upsized. Cape Cod is a bit of desert... only one DCFC stall on the Cape last year, in Hyannis, but a couple more under construction.
--Westbound from Philly to Pittsburg was impossible in the past, now is apparently doable with some sketchy looking stations, haven't tried it yet. I did go up into the Poconos, and did most of my charging on 120V overnight with an extension cord run out my hotel window.

None of the above bothers me in the slightest... everything is growing leaps and bounds. On my first EV roadtrip in 2015, my car had a 75 mile HW range (versus 200-220 now), and there were just 2 DCFC stalls total between Philly and NYC (100 miles away), and they ran at 25 kW on a good day, when they worked at all.

Or go to the dark side and buy a Tesla. Say what you want about Elon but the charging network is good and getting better. Once opened up to third parties I think it will sell even more Teslas as the line for the CCS chargers will be long with no line for the Tesla only chargers.

 

[SpaceBus]

EV chargers have so many less complications compared to a gas station. A charger could be installed pretty much anywhere people regularly park, don't emit benzene and other toxic fumes, have far less risk, etc. Soon gas stations will look antiquated and silly in comparison to being able to charge, even for just a few minutes, anywhere you can park a car. Being able to "fuel" up a car at home is a huge convenience if you ask me. The average American drives 39 miles a day, well within the majority of EVs on the market.

 

[semipro]

Being able to "fuel" up a car at home is a huge convenience if you ask me.

My wife and I mention this often.
We much prefer the 15 sec. it takes to plug in our EV at home versus standing in the cold at a fueling station.
Of course, we plug in more often than we would fill gas but still.

 

[EbS-P]

EV chargers have so many less complications compared to a gas station. A charger could be installed pretty much anywhere people regularly park, don't emit benzene and other toxic fumes, have far less risk, etc. Soon gas stations will look antiquated and silly in comparison to being able to charge, even for just a few minutes, anywhere you can park a car. Being able to "fuel" up a car at home is a huge convenience if you ask me. The average American drives 39 miles a day, well within the majority of EVs on the market.

I believe I saw where Tesla is making pre manufactured charging stations where multiple chargers are assembled in a single and trucked to a location lifted off the truck and all that’s left is to make the electric connection to the grid.

I want to see what the rectifier looks like for a 250kw dc fast charger. Well it’s probably not that impressive given the inverter on each plaid motor prob does 250kw.

 

[EbS-P]

My wife and I mention this often.
We much prefer the 15 sec. it takes to plug in our EV at home versus standing in the cold at a fueling station.
Of course, we plug in more often than we would fill gas but still.

Found out yesterday that Costco closes the pumps at 7pm on the weekends.