Buying one fireplace to heat 3 rooms

[Gooserider]

(continued from previous)

One downside about your construction however, is that I think many of us have been assuming that you had a fairly typical American level of insulation, as opposed to what you are describing as basically non-insulated...

This means that you might need a MUCH bigger stove than we would to heat the same amount since you don't have any insulation. A stove like what you are looking at might help, but not let you reach quite the levels of comfort you want when it gets down to your lower temperatures.

However, this is still speculation on my part, and your dealer probably has more knowledge about what is appropriate for your conditions. I would try to talk to any other people you can that are trying to heat similar size spaces with that size of stove to see if it actually works for them.

Another option that you might consider, though it might not be practical for you (I'm not sure) is a MASONRY HEATER. In some ways what you describe almost begs for one. A masonry heater is designed to run short hot fires, so it is almost impossible to over fire, and at the same time is less fussy about wood quality, so the pallet wood is potentially much less of an issue. It is actually a modern version of the heaters they used in the old Roman Baths, so it would fit traditionally, and it potentially could even take advantage of your house construction as part of it's heating method.

A masonry stove is essentially a very large masonry structure with a tight sealing firebox made of very fire resistant materials. Built into the structure is a very convoluted smoke path, (which can include a stone oven for traditional baking of breads, etc.) designed to pass through most of the structure. It can have ducts bult into it as well, or the heat exchanger for various other heating systems. The basic principle of operation is that you build one or two large HOT fast burning fires a day. The heat from the fires goes through the masonry structure which absorbs and stores the heat while cooling the smoke. The hot masonry structure then sits and radiates the heat out over several hours. This radiant heat is supposed to be very effective and efficient. Masonry stoves are supposed to be very efficient at getting lots of heat out of smaller amounts of wood, and are getting to be very popular up in the Scandinavian countries, as well as Russia. The basic concept actually is supposed to go back as far as the Roman times when it was used to heat their baths. It was rediscovered in medieval times when increasing population in the northern countries caused there to be shortages of firewood, and a search for stoves that would give as much heat as possible from minimal wood.

Downsides are the weight and cost. Since you don't have a basement, you may not have as many concerns about the weight since you would need much less in the way of a footing (which would lower the cost) and since you have no existing structure and are having to build everything from scratch, there might not be as much cost difference. There are several places in the EU that are building the parts for these stoves, in fact just about all the places in the U.S. that are selling them are either using EU parts, or are being run by EU immigrants and/or trained builders, or have EU designs that they are working from. Since your house is basically masonry construction, it might even be possible to incorporate the house structure into the heater, so that you wouldn't need any ducting, etc...

This might be a totally crazy idea, but it might be worth looking into...

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

Goose: Your response is excellent and should be included in the WIKI. You can fix that. What you need to do is explain to this nice lady why we call you Goose, she can not understand.

Hmmm.... Given my avatar, and where Malta is, I'd have thought she might understand faster than most Americans :coolsmile:

However, in short, I am a biker (motorcyclist) and my ride of choice for about the last 20 years or so has been a Moto Guzzi motorcycle, specifically a couple of California II's that have been heavily modified, including sidecars.

One of our habits in the U.S. is to have slang nicknames for all sorts of things, and a Moto Guzzi is commonly known (to the extent that it is known, as it isn't a commonly seen bike) as a "Goose"

When I first got online years back, before there was a publicly accessible Internet, I picked Gooserider as my handle, and have been using it ever since. (And periodically having to explain that it does not refer to performing unnatural acts with poultry.... %-P )

 

[restorer]

Goose: Your response is excellent and should be included in the WIKI. You can fix that. What you need to do is explain to this nice lady why we call you Goose, she can not understand.

Hmmm.... Given my avatar, and where Malta is, I'd have thought she might understand faster than most Americans :coolsmile:

However, in short, I am a biker (motorcyclist) and my ride of choice for about the last 20 years or so has been a Moto Guzzi motorcycle, specifically a couple of California II's that have been heavily modified, including sidecars.

One of our habits in the U.S. is to have slang nicknames for all sorts of things, and a Moto Guzzi is commonly known (to the extent that it is known, as it isn't a commonly seen bike) as a "Goose"

When I first got online years back, before there was a publicly accessible Internet, I picked Gooserider as my handle, and have been using it ever since. (And periodically having to explain that it does not refer to performing unnatural acts with poultry.... %-P )

Hey , Goose, being friendly and fun. My Mom would not know you by that association. Thought this nice lady might not understand our American fun, you pointed out. That's why I don't use "wood butcherer, or any o it's variations. No offense intended, just wanted to include her in the private circle.

By the By, I think she might understand an Avatar like Colnago-Masi man as easily. See I used to race bikes also, but they were people powered.

 

[Gooserider]

Goose: Your response is excellent and should be included in the WIKI. You can fix that. What you need to do is explain to this nice lady why we call you Goose, she can not understand.

Hmmm.... Given my avatar, and where Malta is, I'd have thought she might understand faster than most Americans :coolsmile:

However, in short, I am a biker (motorcyclist) and my ride of choice for about the last 20 years or so has been a Moto Guzzi motorcycle, specifically a couple of California II's that have been heavily modified, including sidecars.

One of our habits in the U.S. is to have slang nicknames for all sorts of things, and a Moto Guzzi is commonly known (to the extent that it is known, as it isn't a commonly seen bike) as a "Goose"

When I first got online years back, before there was a publicly accessible Internet, I picked Gooserider as my handle, and have been using it ever since. (And periodically having to explain that it does not refer to performing unnatural acts with poultry.... %-P )

Hey , Goose, being friendly and fun. My Mom would not know you by that association. Thought this nice lady might not understand our American fun, you pointed out. That's why I don't use "wood butcherer, or any o it's variations. No offense intended, just wanted to include her in the private circle.

By the By, I think she might understand an Avatar like Colnago-Masi man as easily. See I used to race bikes also, but they were people powered.

Not a problem... I assumed it was a friendly message. Just that since Malta is so close to Italy, I thought it likely she would have spotted the Guzzi logo on the Italian flag background faster than many Americans. Guzzi isn't a hugely popular bike in the EU either, but they are a bit more present and visible - for instance they are commonly used as police bikes in Italy the way Harley's are in the U.S.

Around here, I've found that even in the biker community there are lots of folks that have seldom if ever seen a Guzzi, let alone non-riders. Guzzi has been a big name in racing, mostly in the past, but my bikes aren't anything close to race machines. The California series was primarily touring oriented, and had a model lineage that came from the Guzzi police bikes (used to be popular in the U.S. - it's what they used in some of the Dirty Harry movies) and I've taken them even further in that direction by turning them into dedicated sidecar outfits that I ride all year round - I haven't owned a car since 1980...

Gooserider

 

[restorer]

Goose: Your response is excellent and should be included in the WIKI. You can fix that. What you need to do is explain to this nice lady why we call you Goose, she can not understand.

Hmmm.... Given my avatar, and where Malta is, I'd have thought she might understand faster than most Americans :coolsmile:

However, in short, I am a biker (motorcyclist) and my ride of choice for about the last 20 years or so has been a Moto Guzzi motorcycle, specifically a couple of California II's that have been heavily modified, including sidecars.

One of our habits in the U.S. is to have slang nicknames for all sorts of things, and a Moto Guzzi is commonly known (to the extent that it is known, as it isn't a commonly seen bike) as a "Goose"

When I first got online years back, before there was a publicly accessible Internet, I picked Gooserider as my handle, and have been using it ever since. (And periodically having to explain that it does not refer to performing unnatural acts with poultry.... %-P )

Hey , Goose, being friendly and fun. My Mom would not know you by that association. Thought this nice lady might not understand our American fun, you pointed out. That's why I don't use "wood butcherer, or any o it's variations. No offense intended, just wanted to include her in the private circle.

By the By, I think she might understand an Avatar like Colnago-Masi man as easily. See I used to race bikes also, but they were people powered.

Not a problem... I assumed it was a friendly message. Just that since Malta is so close to Italy, I thought it likely she would have spotted the Guzzi logo on the Italian flag background faster than many Americans. Guzzi isn't a hugely popular bike in the EU either, but they are a bit more present and visible - for instance they are commonly used as police bikes in Italy the way Harley's are in the U.S.

Around here, I've found that even in the biker community there are lots of folks that have seldom if ever seen a Guzzi, let alone non-riders. Guzzi has been a big name in racing, mostly in the past, but my bikes aren't anything close to race machines. The California series was primarily touring oriented, and had a model lineage that came from the Guzzi police bikes (used to be popular in the U.S. - it's what they used in some of the Dirty Harry movies) and I've taken them even further in that direction by turning them into dedicated sidecar outfits that I ride all year round - I haven't owned a car since 1980...

Gooserider

Goose:
Old world has it, Guzzi used castings from Campy and Colnago for the rides. Makes you a cousin. Let's help this fine lady get a good rider out of her stove.

BTB, don't ever call me a lug nut.

 

[Starter]

Given my avatar, and where Malta is, I'd have thought she might understand faster than most Americans :coolsmile:

Gooserider

Haha you were right! Apart from that, we're in the automotive/motorcycle business mainly care products and body shop repair products importers... so I definitely didn't associate you with any geese! :cheese:

Thank you all for the information - it is very valuable for us. We were thinking we might start of by burning 'proper' wood at first, so that we get to know our stove and the way it works and behaves, then move on to mixing good wood with pallet wood, and ultimately try pallet burning alone. I was wondering if we tie the bits of pallet together, using flexible wire (unplasticised of course!) in order to create 'logs' made of like 3 pieces...

Another topic... alas we still can't decide on the stove model!

Originally, since the house is somewhat open and we'd be having ducting and all, we had set our minds on the largest stove, the 16KW Madrid. The dealer supported our decision since he said the ducted heat would be larger with a big stove.

In the meantime, we went to other dealers who came on site too, and some said we'd do OK with 14KW, and some said anything above 12KW would be too much.

What made us change our minds at first was because the dealer doesn't have the 16KW box in stock. He can order it for us but it will be arriving in March... AND also the reason that the 16KW Madrid doesn't have the option to close the frontal blower and direct all the heat through the ducts.

The 12KW model in my avatar has the option to blow all the heat from the ducts and nothing from the front. Or half and half, or 1/4 and 3/4.

Also my husband was checking the dimensions of the 12KW model and he is now thinking that it is too small. It certainly is small when compared to the 16KW Madrid. And personally we like the aesthetic look of the 16KW model more since it's somewhat more modern looking.

Here are the 12KW Astorga and its dimensions, and the 16KW Madrid and the dimensions. I'd appreciate your advice on this.

 

[begreen]

I was going to suggest the Madrid but didn't think you would go for the more modern look. I wouldn't worry too much about the regulation. If you want less heat upstairs, close the registers down a bit.

 

[Starter]

I was going to suggest the Madrid but didn't think you would go for the more modern look. I wouldn't worry too much about the regulation. If you want less heat upstairs, close the registers down a bit.

I was acually afraid that the Madrid would be giving me less heat upstairs, since I can't close up its frontal blower!

Now if that isn't the case, it's another story!

 

[begreen]

If the duct runs are kept clean with a minimum number of elbows, then the ducted heat should be good. What did you decide? Interior ducts or exterior insulated ducts? If exterior, how do they propose to insulate them? Do they have a demo unit that you can feel the output difference between the frontal and ducted output? If not, can they lend you a manual to see what Bronpi recommends for balancing the output?

 

[Starter]

So far we decided on interior un-insulated ducts. Two of them. One opening into the bathroom upstairs and the other one passing above the soffit (false roof) of the bathroom and exiting into our bedroom.

Our issue now is chosing the best stove to give us the best heat in the upstairs rooms where we really want to be comfortable, and the maximum it can downstairs to minimise the chill factor between one part of the house and the other.

 

[Starter]

Here's a picture of how flue and ducts are supposed to go up.

Obviously everything will then be enclosed.

The diagram shows a cross-section, with the main part showing the works in daughter's bedroom, all connections come up from the hall downstairs and the flue alone goes up through the washroom and out through the roof.

(Edit: the ducts might be inverted, ie the longer one being near the flue)

 

[Gooserider]

Looks like a setup that should work, the only question being if it will produce enough heat in total...

Uncle Rich, I don't think Guzzi ever used any pedal bike maker parts, or at least there isn't anything that has one of those brand names on it that I know of. Guzzi gets their disk brakes from Brembo, carbs from Del'Orto, and the electrics from Bosch and Marrelli. I'm not sure where any of the other cast stuff comes from, but you never know. Nothing wrong with using those parts, just that I don't think they did. (Though I wouldn't have bragged if they made the old drum brake setups cause those were truly awful. Just not enough power for the weight of the bike.)

Gooserider

 

[Starter]

Looks like a setup that should work, the only question being if it will produce enough heat in total...

Guess we'll only have to wait and see then.

They'll be coming to do the installation next week. Hopefully Monday or Tuesday...

Btw has anyone ever burnt eucalypus? My dad's got 6 or 8 large eucalyptus trees, and he wants to get rid of them...
They're live trees now however, so I think it'll be a year before they'd be ready for burning.

 

[begreen]

I've burnt some scraps of eucalyptus. It burns well and hot. If your dad has 6-8 good sized trees, he might want to first see if someone wants to buy them for furniture wood. There will be plenty of firewood left over in the limbs. Otherwise, he may want to get into the firewood business. With your mild climate one good sized tree would last you a couple years. Sounds like you'll be burning hardwood in year though. Just let it season well.

 

[Starter]

I've burnt some scraps of eucalyptus. It burns well and hot. If your dad has 6-8 good sized trees, he might want to first see if someone wants to buy them for furniture wood. There will be plenty of firewood left over in the limbs. Otherwise, he may want to get into the firewood business. With your mild climate one good sized tree would last you a couple years. Sounds like you'll be burning hardwood in year though. Just let it season well.

Oh well, lol, I forgot that a large maltese tree would probably be a bush by american standards The trees are about two storeys high and the trunk at their thickest has a circumference of some 30 inches probably. Dad was just planning to throw them away, but obviously he won't now. My husband will be buying a chainsaw to cut them down, and the chainsaw will also be handy for cutting up pallets.

I'm glad that eucalyptus is good for burning. I checked the prices to buy wood for burning here. 20 pieces of olive wood of 8" circumference cost 15 US Dollars. Due to my inexperience I don't know the length of time they'd be burning till we finish them. But it is not cheap considering that the wages here are half of those in the US.

I really want to thank everyone for the invaluable help you gave me on this forum. I've learnt a lot from your answers to my posts, and from the information on hearth.com, and what I learnt I can pass on to my husband as well. I'll hope that some day I'll know so much as to be able to contribute and give advice here as well!

FINALLY... we've decided on the insert! It will be the 16KW Madrid model. It's the largest we could find here, and I think that way we'd be playing safe. Initially we always had that model in mind, but the dealer said he didn't have it in stock... Today he called us and said that he actually had two models - they had been showing up on his pc as stock but only now they located them physically in their stores. So we grasped the occasion and now next week they'll be coming over to install the 16KW model. I put the insert's description in my signature.

I can't wait until the insert is installed and ready so that we can try it out! :cheese:

 

[begreen]

That's about the size of our eucalyptus. Nice trees. If your dad would permit, I would only take down one tree a year. Split it and stack it right away and you should be able to burn it the next year. I doubt you could burn more than a tree a year with the palettes supplement.

 

[Starter]

Seriously? Initially I thought you were kidding when you said about my dad going into the firewood business! It's awesome if just one tree would last us the whole winter! Your advice was very valuable. Thanks again!

 

[Gooserider]

Seriously? Initially I thought you were kidding when you said about my dad going into the firewood business! It's awesome if just one tree would last us the whole winter! Your advice was very valuable. Thanks again!

I don't know that I'd go as far as to say that you'd get a seasons burning out of one tree, BG may have misread your comment on the size of the tree, I know that I did at first because normal U.S. convention is to talk about the diameter of a round thing rather than it's circumference. A 30" circumference would work out to about a 10" diameter, which would be good for about 3-4 splits per round. A two story tree might produce about 15-20 18" long rounds, plus a bunch of branches and kindling in smaller diameters. That isn't a huge amount of wood, but it will be useful.

I would be inclined to leave it in large splits as the pallets are probably going to be mostly smaller size peices, which will burn quickly. This stuff will be slower burning and I'd use it for large "all nighter" splits that you can throw on when you are going to bed and want a long burn that you don't have to keep feeding.

All that said, I'd still suggest calling any places that might be interested in the trees as furniture wood or lumber to see if they have a serious interest - it is possible that you might get more money from selling them the trees than it would cost to purchase an equivalent amount of firewood, depending on how "exotic" a wood eucalyptis is considered to be, and how large those trees are compared to the average.

Gooserider

 

[begreen]

Yep, I follow you goose. I was thinking one, (maybe two for insurance), eucalyptus combined with palette wood should carry them through a winter. It's supposed to be in the 60's there all this week.

 

[Starter]

Btw I haven't vanished - the installer postponed the installation for next week. I'll be posting pictures of the installation.

I was reading some of Elk's posts. I don't think we here have a code for the installation of fireplaces... umm and I studied law so I should be knowing if there is. So I think it'd be very useful for me to post pics here!

Thanks guys!

 

[begreen]

I suspect you'll have to be your own inspector. This is why a good reputable installer is important. You will have your own rules, regulations and materials in Malta. We can only speak about standards and materials used here. As a general rule, be sure that the ducting is not in direct contact with wood. Try to keep it with at least a 2" spacing from combustibles, especially for the first 10 feet.

As to the flue, I am a little confused by the original quotation. There are listed 13 chimney pots for the first floor and 7 for the roof. Search google for the typical meaning of a chimney pot, it's what tops off the flue. Usually there is only one per flue, so I have no certain what this is about. The flue pipe listed is double-wall part of the way and single wall the rest. We're not allowed to use this here, but perhaps that is what all the chimney pots are about. In Malta, do chimney pots = flue tile? Is he building a tile liner for the flue pipe to run up inside of? If so, that may be an ok alternative to our practices.

Pictures or the installation process will be fun. I'm looking forward to them.

 

[Starter]

Search google for the typical meaning of a chimney pot, it's what tops off the flue. Usually there is only one per flue, so I have no certain what this is about. The flue pipe listed is double-wall part of the way and single wall the rest. We're not allowed to use this here, but perhaps that is what all the chimney pots are about. In Malta, do chimney pots = flue tile? Is he building a tile liner for the flue pipe to run up inside of? If so, that may be an ok alternative to our practices.

Lol you're right about that. Bet it does sound funny saying I'm going to have 13 chimney pots!

What you call chimney pot in my quote is listed as 'comignolo'.

My 'chimney pots' are like thick big hollow concrete bricks. After they drill the holes for the flue, they'd put the 'chimney pots' in place and the flue will pass through them, so that it is isolated.

I guess they are a type of flue tile, premade into square shape for ease of installation?

 

[begreen]

Got it, they seem to use 'comignolo' interchangeably for any part of the chimney structure. Is this what they look like?
http://www.esseblock.com/

 

[Starter]

Yes exactly!

 

[Gooserider]

OK, that looks like a variant on what we refer to as a "flue tile". However yours look like they are made out of some sort of concrete, ours are typically made from a red clay that looks sort of like our old traditional clay flower pots. Standard American practice for a masonry chimney is (in very simplified description) to build the firebox, then stack a series of those clay tiles (which come in approx 3' lengths) to make the flue of the desired height, and build the brick chimney structure around the clay tiles to support and protect them. These tiles are normally sized for fireplace style setups, and are too big to work well with most stoves, so we then come along and drop a stainless liner down the tiles, hopefully with some insulation, to hook up to the stove. (The clay tiles are also rather fragile, and tend to get damaged in chimney fires or by other abuse, including age)

It is getting more common these days, if planning to go directly to a wood stove, to skip the whole masonry setup and instead use a multi-layer insulated metal chimney system that can be installed without needing all the surrounding masonry structure. (It still requires appropriate clearances, and other care in installing, but is much easier to deal with otherwise)

To us the term "Chimney Pot" is more frequently referred to as a "Chimney Cap", and is the gizmo that normally sits at the top of the flue pipe, whatever sort of structure it is made from, and serves to keep birds and other critters from trying to get down the pipe, and in some designs also includes a screen intended to (hopefully) keep any sparks or embers from your fire from escaping out of the flue where they might cause a problem for others.

Judging from the picture it looks to me like what you are getting is a sort of hybrid all in one peice that combines the flue tile, liner and insulation into one peice that is fastened together in sections some how. Looks like a nice concept that should work well as long as it's installed right.

Gooserider