Buying one fireplace to heat 3 rooms

[Starter]

You're doing fine and I understand you. When it's "cool" outside, where do you spend most time as a family? That's where I'd want the heat. The 12 kw should suffice for normal conditions, though weather has ceased to be "normal" for a lot of us. If it's 0C you won't be walking all around in a t-shirt, but as a chill chaser, the stove should really help. If the mistrals don't reach Malta then 12kw may suffice. It will certainly help alot. As for the bath, a simple and safe electric heater can solve that problem quickly. No need to heat it when no one is in there.

Most of the time is spent in the kitchen and dining room as are seen on the ground floor diagram. However, the kitchen with the cooking and the oven generates heat. Both kitchen and dining room have doors, and they are connected to each other by a serving window. That means the heat generated by the cooking there remains in those two rooms quite efficiently.

However we'd be comfortable there but as soon as we open the dining room door to go upstairs the temperature would be chilly compared to the one we've been in. I mostly worry about our 4 year old daughter, going from a warm room to cold... etc... Hopefully a couple of fans placed by the 2 arches as shown in the pictures of my house in the first page of this thread would help dissipate the heat...

The other mostly used rooms are those on the first floor: daughter's bedroom, bathroom and our bedroom.

The company who's going to install our system told us that the best way to do it would be to run the chimney straight up from the hall, straight up through daughter's bedroom, and up through the washroom which (not shown on plan here) is right above daughter's bedroom.

Plainly speaking, daughter's bedroom is one of the warmest rooms since there is building all around. He said the chimney would pass through her bedroom, there would be concrete 'chimney pots' around it, but he'll place a vent at the bottom and another at the top so that heat from between the chimney and chimney pots could escape into the bedroom. I don't think that's bad, considering that the chimney itself would be sealed as a whole unit and no gases could escape, it's just the air from between the chimney and the concrete insulation which would be heating that room.

Then we'd be having 2 ducts.

Note that the ducts do not come directly from the fire compartment itself, they're inbuilt as ducts by the factory in the insert, for the purpose to be used as ducts to other rooms. I'm pointing this out because someone mentioned something about carbon-monoxide danger etc...

One duct will spill into the bathroom upstairs.

The other duct would pass through the false roof (soffit) of same bathroom and exit into the main bedroom.

Right now what we can't decide is this issue: is it better to have a 16KW insert in the hall but which blows forward and through the ducts SIMULTANEOUSLY? Or would it be best to have a smaller 12KW insert which enables us to close the blower to the hall and thus enabling all the heat generated to be redirected to the main bedroom and bathroom?

 

[nshif]

Just for clarification ... When you say 1st floor you do not mean the ground floor, you are referring to the floor one flight of stairs up. Right? In the US the ground floor is considered the 1st floor.

 

[Starter]

[quote author="Starter" what is a flue, a baffle and a damper? :red: [/quote] To the above I might also ask what a cord means, apart from that of a string instrument? :blank:

 

[Starter]

Just for clarification ... When you say 1st floor you do not mean the ground floor, you are referring to the floor one flight of stairs up. Right? In the US the ground floor is considered the 1st floor.

What we mean here is that the ground floor is the floor which is level with the street. Anything below that is called a basement.

So the ground floor in my plan is essentially the lowest floor of my house since I got no basement. It is at the same level of the street.

The first floor would be one storey up from the ground floor.

My study is on the first floor, so when I'm out in the balcony I see the street and cars below me like... 12 or 13 feet below.

:-S I can't fathom why we speak the english language as well but so many terminologies are different from us to the REAL english language speaking countries! Sorry for the confusion!

 

[begreen]

A cord is a US measure of firewood. It equals 128 cu ft or a stack 4 ft x 4 ft x 8 ft. A flue is the chimney, a damper is an adjustable baffle in the flue pipe to restrict the draft (or draw) of the flue. Sometimes if the draft is too strong a damper is used to throttle down the draft.

I still think that keeping things simple is the best way. If all the heat is ducted to upstairs it will be hot up there and cool downstairs. But it sounds like you can regulate that by controlling whether the heat goes into the downstairs room or upstairs ducts, so maybe it will be fine If you trust uour installer and their references check out, go for it and let us know how it works out. I'd love to come over and help you out. Maybe I can talk my wife into it, probably wouldn't take too much arm twisting.

 

[Starter]

A cord is a US measure of firewood. It equals 128 cu ft or a stack 4 ft x 4 ft x 8 ft. A flue is the chimney, a damper is an adjustable baffle in the flue pipe to restrict the draft (or draw) of the flue. Sometimes if the draft is too strong a damper is used to throttle down the draft.

Thanks. Now I'm really starting to understand things. So my flue is the chimney... and the damper is that adjustable circle in the insert which can be closed/opened or anywhere in between. (Which means that a damper is a baffle too?)

Actually I was going to post asking what was that iron thing for which I got a lever on the outside, to close and open the chimney with. Now I know it's the damper.

If all the heat is ducted to upstairs it will be hot up there and cool downstairs. But it sounds like you can regulate that by controlling whether the heat goes into the downstairs room or upstairs ducts, so maybe it will be fine If you trust your installer and their references check out, go for it and let us know how it works out. I'd love to come over and help you out. Maybe I can talk my wife into it, probably wouldn't take too much arm twisting.

Lol I wouldn't object to having you coming over here I've learnt a ton over here than any agent/installer ever taught me!

The main issue about the controlling of the heat is that it is not that I can just shut off all the heat for downstairs and make it go up... the lever is manual... which means in the long run I can learn the correct balance and like leave off 1/4 open for downstairs and 3/4 open for upstairs, or as the best case may be.

I think that'd still be better than having a larger firebox which doesn't allow that option, huh?

 

[Starter]

Another issue is that the bathroom and main bedroom on the first floor are ensuite, so essentially that would be helping out since we'd be having one duct in the bathroom and another duct in the ensuite bedroom.

And what deters me from electrical power is the fact that our electricity bills have doubled within the past year and a half. Right now we pay nearly 19 U.S. cents per KW-hour. We do have a 24,000 BTU aircondition in the living room (ground floor) and a 12,000 BTU aircondition in the main bedroom, which we had bought long ago way before we bought this present house. But considering the extremely hefty bills we've been getting we'd prefer to use them as a last resort, keeping in mind that for us 19 U.S. cents per KW-hour is extremely expensive since our wages here are like half of what you guys get in the US...

 

[begreen]

Agreed. I like the regulation feature. Sounds like the next step is to check out references. Ask your dealer what the warranty is and how long Bompi has been making stoves and how long they have been installing them If you can find someone that has had this unit burning for awhile, that would be the best next step. If all checks out, then I'd go for it. Just be sure they clearly understand that safety is your absolute first concern. BTW, do they have to pass an inspection before the stove can be fired up? If yes, then take full advantage of this. (Unless local politics has the inpectors on the dole.)

 

[nshif]

I dont know if this is your goal or not but you are not going to get an all night burn with pallets. It will still be cold when you get up in the AM. And you will have to start a new fire from scratch.

 

[Starter]

I dont know if this is your goal or not but you are not going to get an all night burn with pallets. It will still be cold when you get up in the AM. And you will have to start a new fire from scratch.

The difference relevant for me is whether it will be like you say even if I get a 16KW insert but which would be without the option to shut of the frontal vent, or whether it will be the same if I get the 12KW insert with the option to redirect output in the proportion I determine to the ground floor or to the first floor.

The issue of my preference to pallets is that we obtain them for free. A lot of them, we end throwing them away which is a pity. We can always buy wood, but obviously we'd be burning the free wood as long as it's available. In my country wood is quite expensive, we have no woods where one can go and chop away. All trees are protected. Any good wood is imported and expensive. Though still less expensive than gas or electricity. Pallet wood comes free to us since we are importers and we get 'free' pallets with every container. So better having that burn than nothing, I thought?

I took a look at the wood burning qualities on this site... the worst wood which MIGHT be our pallets have 13.5 BTU's per cord (millions) and the really best ones have 24. So at worst we'd be having to burn twice as much wood as were we to buy best quality wood.

I was thinking that it would still be worth, considering that my wood comes for free, and that my country in the middle of the Mediterranean is quite of a mild temperature compared. The lowest it gets at night here would be +6 centigrade, which would be around 38 or 40 Fahrenheight (sp?).

 

[begreen]

They also make 14kw units that appear to have the regulation option. That looks like the Sevilla model.
http://www.itrisa.com/cassettes/bronpisevilla.htm

As to the pallets, do you have a good area to store the wet wood ones? Cutting them up in advance will help speed up the process, but they will need to dry out, possibly for a year. Some of the palettes will be bone dry and can be used right away. Developing a skilled sense of which is wet and which is dry will be important. As a test, go out and drive a good sized nail into a few of them. If you see moisture ooze out where the nail entered, then the wood is green. Once you get to know the variety of wood used, you can also guage somewhat by weight. But a moisture meter is probably your best bet.

 

[Starter]

I didn't manage to find out for how long Bronpi have been making inserts and stoves, but on their website they boast of being the leaders in Spain and they export to more than 20 countries.

My dealer gives a 5 year warranty on the insert, which we think is quite good.

He showed us the 14Kw units which have the regulation option as well, that's the Seville model ... It's practically the same as the Astorga model in my avatar, but.... they have the front glass split in two doors... and well to put it mildly we hate the way the unit appears aesthetically! Ugh!

I read here that the stove can be filled up to 2/3 with wood... I'll be asking that to the dealer. I already told him we'd be using pallets and he warned us that they don't have as much heating properties as purchased good wood, in the sense that what would normally take 2 hours to heat in my case would need 4 hours.

My dealer assured me that his company have been installing inserts and stoves for the last 27 years and they never had any safety problems. I'm comfortable also with the fact that if all the items are imported from Spain then they'd be according to the EU regulations applicable in Malta.

Right now I don't have a moisture meter but I'll be trying out your nail technique. Storing pallets isn't a problem, we keep ours stored for quite a long time before we throw them away... or donate them to other guys who can use them in their fireplaces...

But am I mistaken or did I read that the danger of pallets is when they are too dry and cause overfiring? And moisture might only cause difficulty in getting them to burn well, but no danger at all?

Please have patience with me, this is all so new to me and I'm reading a lot in a short time and trying to learn and to make the best choices as possible.

 

[Starter]

The difference between the regulated 12KW Astorga insert in my avatar and the regulated 14KW Seville insert is that the former weighs 275lb and the latter 319lb. They've got practically the same dimensions otherwise. It seems the extra heat is produced because there's more iron mass in the Seville model box to be heated and to be transferred out by the blower...

I'd be buying the Seville one... but we just hate the way it looks! Lol is that reasonable?

 

[begreen]

The very real danger of buring wet wood is creosote build up in the chimney. This can lead to a chimney fire if not kept in check. Wet wood will also provide a very smokey fire which will not be appreciated by your neighbors.

Weight doesn't contribute to heat. The Seville is a bigger stove, with a larger firebox.

Sounds like your mind is made up. Best of luck with the new stove.

 

[Starter]

Weight doesn't contribute to heat. The Seville is a bigger stove, with a larger firebox.

Sounds like your mind is made up. Best of luck with the new stove.

Well, no my mind isn't made up as yet.

The fireplace will be in that hall, it wouldn't be in our view all the time. True we might be 'looking' at it and having fun doing so for the first couple of weeks, but then we'd be looking more into its practicality and efficiency rather than staring and appreciating the aesthetics.

Here are attached the dimensions of the Astorga and the Seville.

So it means if I put the same weight of wood in either stove, I'd be getting the same heat notwithstanding that the Seville has more iron material?

It's only if I manage to get more wood in the Seville that I'd manage to get more heat out of it just because the Astorga doesn't take as much wood inside?

[Edit: I read the introduction of the catalogue, Bronpi are going to be 10 years on 24th February...]

 

[begreen]

Correct.

 

[nshif]

If you load ANY stove 2/3 full with dry pallet wood you are going to over fire it. Plan on loading it a few times during the night if you want any heat in the AM.

 

[Starter]

One last question - my house here (like all houses in my country) is built from quarried limestone. No insulation, just limestone walls and waterpaint.
The floors, which can be seen in the pics in the first page of this thread, are of hard shiny ceramic. And underneath it's concrete.

I admit the possiblilty of chimney fire due to our lack of experience in burning wood has been somewhat haunting me.

In the event of thinking about the worst, do the same implications of a chimney fire apply to me? (Ie can the event of a chimney fire burn my whole house down or the risk is minimised somewhat due to lack of flammable building material?) What really happens if a chimney catches fire?

 

[Starter]

If you load ANY stove 2/3 full with dry pallet wood you are going to over fire it. Plan on loading it a few times during the night if you want any heat in the AM.

So hopefully I got this right: pallet wood must be completely dry to avoid creosote buildup in the chimney, but you must load it at LESS than the recommended capacity in order to avoid over-firing the stove.

 

[nshif]

An over fire can cause a chimney fire especially if you burn green wood. a chimney fire is like a giant blow torch going up the flue and out the top. Your walls sound fine on the exterior but the roof and interior walls could be at risk. I dont mean to scare you just something to be aware of.

 

[begreen]

If you load ANY stove 2/3 full with dry pallet wood you are going to over fire it. Plan on loading it a few times during the night if you want any heat in the AM.

So hopefully I got this right: pallet wood must be completely dry to avoid creosote buildup in the chimney, but you must load it at LESS than the recommended capacity in order to avoid over-firing the stove.

Correct. Any wood burning is a judgement call based on the wood you have to burn, the desired heat you want and the stove itself. As I mentioned in the beginning most folks burning palette wood are experienced wood burners. Again, we don't know what type or quality of wood you are going to get with palettes. It could be slow burning hardwood or fast burning pine.

But I think your average fire is going to be small to medium. Most of the time you're just going to be chill chasing. You also have the option of mixing palette wood with purchased wood to give a longer burn.

For a lot more answers and educational information, visit this site:
http://www.woodheat.org/

 

[nshif]

If you load ANY stove 2/3 full with dry pallet wood you are going to over fire it. Plan on loading it a few times during the night if you want any heat in the AM.

So hopefully I got this right: pallet wood must be completely dry to avoid creosote buildup in the chimney, but you must load it at LESS than the recommended capacity in order to avoid over-firing the stove.

That is correct but you dont want it too dry or it will just burn right up. hence the moisture meter. I would say around 20% moisture. And yes not filling the stove will help prevent an over fire. But again you will not get an all night burn. Perhaps this is when you want somepurchased cord wood.

 

[Marty]

If you load ANY stove 2/3 full with dry pallet wood you are going to over fire it. Plan on loading it a few times during the night if you want any heat in the AM.

So hopefully I got this right: pallet wood must be completely dry to avoid creosote buildup in the chimney, but you must load it at LESS than the recommended capacity in order to avoid over-firing the stove.

Think of it this way:

Dry wood is good but not too dry
+
Lots of small pieces makes the fire much hotter than fewer larger pieces of the same weight.

If you burn the center structural support pieces of the pallets or even slightly larger pieces of scrap wood you can scavenge you should not have a problem overfireing. If you burn the cross pieces of the pallet you will have to tend the fire more frequently and watch the temp more closley.
When you are new to wood burning it is a learning curve. Just be sure to have respect for the fire burning in your home until you know it's every move.
The way I see it, with yearly low temps above freezing you should be able to chase away the chill with palletts and not have to overfire the stove to do so.

Get a moisture meter. See how the stove handles different sized loads of different sized pieces of wood before you leave it burning full and alone. Sit back and enjoy the fire.

 

[Gooserider]

Btw I'm somewhat embarrassed to post this but it's the language barrier I think... I've been reading the FAQ on choosing stoves, woodburning etc on hearth.com and there are a couple of words I am not understanding what they refer to. Mainly, what is a flue, a baffle and a damper? :red:

I'm chiming in because I'm not sure your question has been answered real well yet.

Don't worry to much about the language, you do better than many native american speakers - our gov't education system is nothing to brag about. I think anyone might be confused by some of the technical terms.

A flue is not quite the same as a chimney. A chimney is a brick or metal structure that contains one or more flues. The flue is actually the pipe or passage that the smoke travels through. Typically the rule of thumb is that each fuel burning appliance, such as a furnace, stove, fireplace, etc. will need to have it's own seperate flue, so many times they will put several flues into the same chimney structure, especially when dealing with masonry chimneys.

A damper is sort of like a valve in the flue that controls the flow of exhaust gasses. These days the term is a bit ambiguous because there are really two different sorts of dampers, that serve two different functions.

The older traditional type may or may not be needed with a modern stove, but was very important on older stoves. It is typically either at the exit from the stove or somewhere in the flue passage. It controlled the effective size of the flue, and thus restricted the total airflow through the stove. On a modern stove, it is usually not needed unless the flue has an unusually powerful draft that can over-ride the modern stoves normal controls. In that case, adding a damper can restrict the effective flue volume so that the stove works better. (Draft, or draw, is the force that pulls the smoke up the chimney, it is influenced by many things, including the height, construction and size of the flue, the outside temperature, how hot the stove is, etc. )

In a modern stove, there are several techniques used to make it more efficient and cleaner burning. Many of these involve restrictions and extra chambers for secondary combustion, which work well once the stove is burning well, but can be too restrictive when the stove is being lit, or when you open it up to add more wood, so that the stove would blow smoke into the room. To deal with this, many stoves use a "bypass damper" that is usually internal to the stove body, and which (as the name implies) opens and closes a larger passage around those restrictions so that the stove won't smoke when you open the doors, and allows you to get it lit or get reloads burning well. This is one of the main controls on the stove itself.

A baffle is a part that is found in some stoves and not in others, and takes several different shapes and locations, and can be made from lots of different things depending on what the stove designer wanted it for. Some stoves might even have several baffles. Essentially what they do is control the movement of air and combustion gasses through the stove so that you get the most efficient combustion possible. Usually they aren't an item of major concern, however on some stoves they may need to be removed as part of the stove maintanence procedure, and on other stoves they are made out of relatively fragile material that you need to be somewhat careful to avoid damaging.

Next issue... Chimney fires.

Chimney fires are caused when excessive creosote builds up in the flue, and gets ignited by a hot fire. Creosote buildup is normally dealt with by developing good burning habits, and by proper periodic flue cleanings. If you don't have excess creosote, you are unlikely to have a fire in the process, so the number one step in preventing fires is preventing the creosote buildup in the first place. Fortuneately, modern stoves are far better about this than old units. The more efficient burning you get with a new stove also means there is less creosote going up the flue in the first place.

However if you DO have a chimney fire, you are potentially in big trouble! Creosote burns extremely hot, and as it burns generates tremendous draft in the flue, which adds air, making it burn hotter, in a self perpetuating cycle that will last until you either manage to shut off the air flow or the creosote all gets consumed. While it is burning, it may be shooting flames out the chimney, and blowing burning material all over the neighboorhood. You essentially have a giant blowtorch going inside your chimney! A large part of the reason codes require chimneys and flues to be built the way they do is to hopefully keep the fire contained inside the chimney structure. If it weren't for chimney fires, we could probably build much lighter chimneys...
If the fire is contained inside the chimney, it is spectacular, but not a big problem - typically you would want to get an inspection to make sure the structure is still sound, and possibly you'd have to replace some or all the chimney parts.

If the fire breaks out, you have a big blowtorch flame trying to get anything inside the house going that it can reach.... You now have a major fire more or less like one from any other cause - how much damage does a major fire typically do with your style of house construction? You probably will be better off than a typical american house made with wood framing and lots of other combustible materials, but I suspect it is still a serious problem.

About the only potentially "good" thing about a chimney fire, is that you will KNOW if you have one - they are typically compared to a jet airplane landing on your roof, or maybe a heavy freight train running through the living room. This gives you the warning to call the fire department and prepare to evacuate.

(almost out of room - will continue)

Gooserider

 

[restorer]

Goose: Your response is excellent and should be included in the WIKI. You can fix that. What you need to do is explain to this nice lady why we call you Goose, she can not understand.