Burn in Jotul 450

[pmilam]

I too have the jotul 450 and found that the ash had clogged the air intake. I cleaned out and found that the air goes in much better and fire burns better. As far as the coals I have the same problem. I use this stove 24 - 7 it is my primary heat. I have to get rid of coal about every other day. Nice big coals that does not burn down. I think that the way the stove was made does not put enough air into the fire. I run my air wide open all the time. And still nothing. I have read on here that some people hardly have to empty ash. I find that hard to believe. Don't get me started on the heat out put. I'm very disappointed with this stove. I hope you have better luck with yours.

 

[cityevader]

Today is the first full day of burning after cleaning it out. Primary and secondary burn are much better now. I can keep it at about 25% open for slowest burn with secondary going. Almost no heat output still, until I left the fan off, intake at 50% for several hours, then turned the fan on with intake back to 25%. Been several more hours now, and finally getting heat.

I used to think more air=more heat. But now that it's combusting properly, more heat goes out the chimney than into the room. Running wide open air I now believe heats less...perhaps as an absolute statement overall...definitely less heat per volume of wood consumed compared to closing it down to just enough to keep secondary going. If the burning gasses stay in the firebox longer, they'll transfer more heat...unless of course, you're chimney pipe is exposed inside!

 

[cityevader]

Oh yeah, since 6 A.M. I've managed to get the adjacent room temp up by .7 degrees using two fans. That's just over 1/10 degree rise per hour...woo hoo!!

 

[Oregon Fire]

Get a rutland stove thermometer so you can tell what is going on. Don't turn on the fan until you hit 400 degrees.

Why do you keep going down to 1/4 on the air control? When I want "heat" - I typically run at 1/2 to 5/8.

And yes, I also find that "running wide open" will not allow the firebox to get up to temp - you need to establish a fire and then throttle back to 5/8 to 3/4 to keep the heat in the firebox to warm her up.


jeff

 

[stoveguy13]

I know you already said it is not the wood but everything you are saying is pointing to wet would large chuncks opening the door and it starts to burn all point to wet wood as well as no heat what do you use for startting the fire? and have you tryed cracking your door during start up?

 

[Rudyjr]

There has to be a logical explanation here somewhere. Too many people are able to get extremely good heat and performance out of this stove. As I said before I had to do some experimentation to find what works for me. I also had help from Brent on getting a fire started and maintaining it. I was also cutting the air back too soon, and I am still cutting it back too much at night, smoking up the glass. My wife (who is always cold) said the rec-room was too hot the other night. I would check the moisture of the wood and install a block off plate if possible.

 

[jgoodnow]

I've been burning with a 450 for one year. I'm using the unit for supplemental heat. My house is a 1600 square foot colonial with a traditional, closed floor plan. The room with the Jotul is about 12' x 22'. I have a block-off plate and a non-insulated stainless steel liner all the way to the top of chimney, which is 25' high. My sense is I got a pretty good install.

I have no trouble heating the house with the 450. The thermostat is set at 65F, and I can raise the temperature in the room with the insert to 75F or 80F and keep the rest of the house at 65F to 70F without the fossil fuel heating system coming on. Two things I would like to improve on are 1) getting longer burn times, and 2) using less wood. My wood is seasoned but not dry enough because I don't have a good system for keeping it well-covered.

I have a Rutland thermometer on the top of the unit just behind the door frame (Mike Wilson location), and I usually run the temp to 550 or 600 before cutting back the air.

 

[cityevader]

Get a rutland stove thermometer so you can tell what is going on. Don't turn on the fan until you hit 400 degrees.

Why do you keep going down to 1/4 on the air control? When I want "heat" - I typically run at 1/2 to 5/8.

And yes, I also find that "running wide open" will not allow the firebox to get up to temp - you need to establish a fire and then throttle back to 5/8 to 3/4 to keep the heat in the firebox to warm her up.


jeff

Now that there is airflow, 5/8 to 3/4 open IS basically full throttle.

Now I need to relearn the stove as it had been changing it's behavior over time. Now it is suddenly different and better. A "well established fire" based on this last burn session, is about 2 hours to achieve. Last night, I was trying to get heat from the blower with approx 3/4 air on an hour-new fire, with secondary, but too young to really put out heat. This mornings session went better.
Do I still wish for a better stove? Yup. Will I give it another chance? Yup.

 

[Rudyjr]

Cityevader, You said in an earlier post that you had a full liner in a Masonry chimney correct? Do you have anything blocking the throat or damper area?

 

[cityevader]

nope, 6 inch oval flex with a mild bend, maybe 20 degrees, to get past chimney bottleneck, then 6 inch round all the way up and out.

I assume creasote gets thicker towards the top, so shouldn't be any more of it below than above.

As I was just went into town to get a magnetic thermometer (now reading 400 with minimum coals where I'd normally reload, but gonna let it die some more to empty ashes) and got to thinking about the car. As I hit the 2 mile mark, I know for a fact that the engine is at 200 degrees, which is where it will thereafter stay....but in no way is it "fully warmed up". The heater isn't fully warm and I could put my hand onm the engine easily enough.Once in town at the six mile point and still at 200 degrees, but the heater is just now fully cranking out heat to the point of needing to be turned down, and no way I could put my hand on that "same temp" engine..

Kinda similar to the stove, no? Get 'er good and hot before turning on the blowers and expecting heat.

Simple revelation.

 

[Rudyjr]

Cityevader, What I am asking is there a block off plate of any kind at the top of the firebox around the liner to block the heat from going around the liner and up the old flue? My block off plate is installed in the straight part of the firebox before it tapers down to the damper throat. There is rockwool between it and the old damper throat. The ss pipe extends through it to the top of the chimney where there is rock wool around the pipe and the termination is siliconed to the liner. You can see picture of the block off plate in my previous post. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/30941/ I believe I would be getting very little usable heat out of my stove had I not done this.

 

[begreen]

nope, 6 inch oval flex with a mild bend, maybe 20 degrees, to get past chimney bottleneck, then 6 inch round all the way up and out.

I assume creasote gets thicker towards the top, so shouldn't be any more of it below than above.

As I was just went into town to get a magnetic thermometer (now reading 400 with minimum coals where I'd normally reload, but gonna let it die some more to empty ashes) and got to thinking about the car. As I hit the 2 mile mark, I know for a fact that the engine is at 200 degrees, which is where it will thereafter stay....but in no way is it "fully warmed up". The heater isn't fully warm and I could put my hand onm the engine easily enough.Once in town at the six mile point and still at 200 degrees, but the heater is just now fully cranking out heat to the point of needing to be turned down, and no way I could put my hand on that "same temp" engine..

Kinda similar to the stove, no? Get 'er good and hot before turning on the blowers and expecting heat.

Simple revelation.

Good to hear that things are improving. It sounds like you've done everything right. 2 year old madrona should be sweet, hot firewood. You are exactly correct with the car analogy. Let her warm up first, then turn on the blowers. It takes a good hour to fully heat up the mass of our T6, so I could see the C450 taking at least half that long if not more.

 

[cityevader]

Cityevader, What I am asking is there a block off plate of any kind at the top of the firebox around the liner to block the heat from going around the liner and up the old flue? My block off plate is installed in the straight part of the firebox before it tapers down to the damper throat. There is rockwool between it and the old damper throat. The ss pipe extends through it to the top of the chimney where there is rock wool around the pipe and the termination is siliconed to the liner. You can see picture of the block off plate in my previous post. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/30941/ I believe I would be getting very little usable heat out of my stove had I not done this.

Ahhh...this was something I was thinking about today...I have only a rain cap at the top, not exactly sealed and certainly not insulated. At one point i was going to stuff some bare fiberglass insulation at the very top between pipe and chimney, but didn't feel safe without knowing exact temp rating of the stuff. There's no way I'm ever going to remove the stove itself except for replacement, due to difficulty installing, so won't do anything down low.

Old stove with no liner cranked out the heat, so thought process stopped there. Possibly higher flue temp with liner? More convection?

 

[Stihl Burning]

One more thing I noticed, The glass in the door on the left was loose enough to push up and down with my fingers pushing on one side. There are only two clips on each glass, and a bit of fibreglass that loses its compression over time. I shimed it and now it is tight, but that leak would only rob my "over night burn times" I would think. Mike.

 

[Rudyjr]

Cityevader, The cap may help a little but the real heat loser is down below. If you do not want to remove the stove I would suggest what my chimney sweep told me they do in my area all the time on installations. Call your local drywall supply house (not Home Depot or Lowes) ask them for firestop insulation or rock wool, one brand is called Roxxul same stuff. In my area it is sold in 50 sf bales for $28.00. Remove your surround, it lifts up and off easily, and put some of it up in the damper opening around your liner. You should be able to do this by hand. You can even get some of those wire insulation supprts to wedge up in there to keep it there. I am pretty sure if you push it up it will stay on its own. An insulating contractor by our shop gave me a piece that was laying around that was left over, so you may check one of them. This stuff is rated at something like 2000 degrees and I would reccomend wearing a dust mask and long sleeve shirt. I think putting at least insulation in around the pipe at the damper will help you a bunch. The three of us who have posted that we are getting good results all have this opening blocked off.If you would like to cheaply test this theory: find some scrap fiberglass insulation, unfaced or remove the facing. Try it and see if you see a difference. It will only get hot enough to melt if there is a chimney fire so it should be o.k. to experiment with, then you can replace it rock wool.

 

[stoveguy13]

nope, 6 inch oval flex with a mild bend, maybe 20 degrees, to get past chimney bottleneck, then 6 inch round all the way up and out.

this cloud be part of the problem you dont really want to ovalize a 6 inch it is kind of like putting a kink in your garden hose ovalizing a 6 inch round can affect the flow rate of the exhaust and having it restricted can cause alot of your issues. may want to cut your damper and make that oval as round as you can.

 

[Rudyjr]

Citevader, Stihl Burning, Pmilam, Any change in what is going on with your stoves? I know you should be able to get better performance than what you are getting. It was in the single digits here last night and the furnace never kicked on. It is 18 degrees out now with 30-40 mph winds and still heating a 50 year old house like a champ (newer windows and insulation). I have to believe that there has to be some logical explanation for what you are experiencing. Give the insulation around the pipe in the damper a shot just for _hits and grins.

 

[Stihl Burning]

In my case no, When we get a warmer spell, I'll try to install a block off plate as a process of elimination, before I ditch this POS. But it does defy any logic, that all this heat (about 50%, cause this thing works about alf as good as expected) is dissapating to the massonary, yet the hearth and the chimney are not even luke warm as a result of being lost to it. Also as I recall, I believe there were a few dissatisfied 450 owners who had block off plates and still dissapointed. Let's face it, nobody is complaining that they are getting cooked out by one of these. Also if I'm getting up to 800 degrees and two feet away ain't wickedly hot, this insert must fall a little short in design some how. The best way to compare, would be, If I could come to your house and visa versa, we would know for sure. I paid $1350 CAD, about a third of new, boy would I be pissed, paying the full $3500! One more thing, my liner barely fit down the chimney, uninsulated, shouldn't whatever heat that is escaping up the chimney, at least aid/benefit my draft? Cheers, Mike.

 

[myzamboni]

a block off plate or rockwool around the liner just above the insert is going to make a significant difference.

 

[Rudyjr]

I burnt a Garrison II airtight for years in the 70's and early 80's. It was a steel stove with cast iron doors and a rear flue. It was installed in two different houses, both times vented into a fireplace with single wall pipe up past the damper. Back then it was common to see guys pack insulation around the pipe at the damper to seal the opening which is what I did. I gaurantee that had that opening not been "blocked off" that the Garrison would have not been able to heat a decent size room. Nobody I know would ever consider installing a free standing stove with the pipe up a masonry flue without some means to block off the opening,so why would this stove be any different? It most certainly will not help your draft not to do it.

 

[Stihl Burning]

First of all, I have a full liner (uninsulated) to the top, sealed & insulated at the top. Now let analyze for a second. No block off plate, allows heat to escape up the flue surrounding my 6" SS liner, annd slowly deminshing as it reaches and stops at the top of my 22 foot chimney. Should this "wasted heat", not at least warm my 6" SS liner and aid in draft? Or is the masonary above the old damper, some kind of "devil's Triangle, super effecient, heat sink" that absorbs heat without a trace? ie: warmed hearth, chimney in garage warmed up. The only way 2 + 2 = 4, in this case would be, that the insert is so "border line", that the heat is so evenly absorbed, you can't even feel where it evaporated to! Kind of reminds me of going to the Dodge Dakota site, and all the "band-aid ways" of trying to make a 3.9 V6 perform and get the MPG of the 4.7 V8. Kind of sucks, as I have about 6-7 bush cords of wood for burning, but at this point, I might as well just "bend over" for the gas company, stop raising my blood pressure, and quit trying to stoke the almighty 5000 btu insert. Sorry for the crappy attitude, but if I could have my warpped Emira 1600 sucking up my wood, house at 78 degrees F, giving additional heat to my garage, I'd be happy. I dread to think, how weak the jotul 450 must be when it is installed flush with the surround! Maybe as a freestanding stove, it would impress? It'll make a nice orniment in the living room fire place. A little big for a boat anchor! Cheers, Mike

 

[Rudyjr]

Like I said before, nobody I know would ever install a freestanding stove in a fireplace and not block off the damper throat. Why would an insert be any different. If you are not willing to try it I would sell it.

 

[Stihl Burning]

Yeah, I'm going to keep hearing that, till I install a block off plate, with no actual science or physics. I just took off the surround and with the stove running at 700 F, I can stick my my hand/arm deep in that 3" gap between the insert top and the mantle, and hold it there comfortably as long as I want. I'm suprised that blocking the escape of that 120 degree air, can change things so drasticly. The jotul has a full sheetmetal jacket to capture and direct the heat to the front of the surround leaving little to go up the flue, and that is a major difference between a freestanding stove installed in a hearth. One other thing, my Jotul is installed in a Heatalator hearth, and when I run the fan, cold air comes out, so I can't see that much heat getting past the sheet metal jacket.

 

[Rudyjr]

7 degrees in central Ohio at 6:30 p.m. 30-40 mph winds. Temperature in rec-room 76 temperature on main floor of house 68 with stat set at 63. This is with 2 medium size red oak splits and a good coal bed, fan set on low.This stove is not even being worked hard. There is no way I could stick my arm on top of the shroud and the surround on the sides are too hot to touch. I am a utility company welder so I know what hot is, I am out of suggestions for you, good luck whatever you decide to do.

 

[cityevader]

I spent all day yesterday doing nothing for a change. Yeah!! Spent a lot of time in front of the stove and monitoring the new thermometer stuffed on top center.

I discovered I used to turn the fan on too soon. It appeared it was at full burn, but in actuality was under 300*F and turning on the fan drops temp by 50* regardless of temp. Combine that with the previous problem of lack of primary so charcoal built up so fast that when a new log was thrown in before temp got a chance to rise, it dropped due to log absorbing heat before burning. Vicious circle which keep temp at about 300*.

Now with primary air functioning, and waiting longer before turning on the fan, say 500*, allows higher temps to be maintained and new logs added don't drastcally lower temps as they used too, and with lowered "coal" bed of unburned charcoal, new logs burn much better, and maintains over 500* at half throttle.

Temp in fire room is noticeably better, but the adjacent room I'm trying to also heat is still nearly 20* colder. That room is 2 feet lower, and there's a 12" fan on ceiling of doorway and a 20" box fan on the steps to push/pull cold/warm air between rooms....so i'm thinking the 450 puts out enough infrared to make the living room feel warm, without heating the air enough to warm the other room by convection...prior stove warmed both, but it was a sort of freestanding type venting into fireplace vs flush mount 450.

Next step is definitely to try the rockwool around damper.

Oh yeah, and the 6" inch oval doesn't restrict airflow at all because has the same cross section of 6"round....it's flatter but wider.