Bolt production to stop

[ABMax24]

Yes but the only car on Chevy’s website now is the Malibu. Starting at $25k USD. Will the small cars come back??

Weird, it's still on the Canadian site. I get it though, I can't remember the last time I seen a Chevy Spark on the roads, they don't sell around here. Granted I live in an abnormal market, 80% of the houses here have at least one pickup in the driveway, many like mine have 2.

I think many people shopping in that price point turn to the used market anyway.

 

[EbS-P]

Weird, it's still on the Canadian site. I get it though, I can't remember the last time I seen a Chevy Spark on the roads, they don't sell around here. Granted I live in an abnormal market, 80% of the houses here have at least one pickup in the driveway, many like mine have 2.

I think many people shopping in that price point turn to the used market anyway.

I drove through a new neighborhood down here last week Saturday afternoon. 80% of them had a truck. Southern Suburbia baby!! Some had two. One duramax had an extension cord drug out to it. I really hope it wasn’t a block heater down here. But we did get a frost that week

I guess my point was the the auto market had been completely disrupted by Covid chip shortages and now an EV transition. Now the new EPA mileage standards whatever they will be. What was normal is gone. It won’t be back. If the US is given a 7500$ tax credit to a BEV purchase.

 

[DBoon]

Yes but the only car on Chevy’s website now is the Malibu. Starting at $25k USD. Will the small cars come back??

Nope - GM is basically out of the car business, see this release from a year ago https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2022/apr/0405-gmhonda.html

Your next GM car, if there is one, will be a re-badged Honda using a GM battery and maybe GM motor platform.

Maybe Honda will offer CarPlay - it is disappointing that we'll have to go back to the days of crappy manufacturer-designed mapping and audio interfaces. I'll just buy a mount for my mobile phone and use it on my dashboard, like the old days.

 

[begreen]

Nope - GM is basically out of the car business, see this release from a year ago https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2022/apr/0405-gmhonda.html

Your next GM car, if there is one, will be a re-badged Honda using a GM battery and maybe GM motor platform.

Maybe Honda will offer CarPlay - it is disappointing that we'll have to go back to the days of crappy manufacturer-designed mapping and audio interfaces. I'll just buy a mount for my mobile phone and use it on my dashboard, like the old days.

That doesn't say they are getting out of the car business. It's more of a boost for Honda's lagging on EV development. It's not the first time. GM collaborated in the past, with Toyota, to produce the Geo Prizm. GM is still producing a lot of cars, but most (7) are listed under the SUV segment, which is still a car. They also have a strong presence in the Chinese market. The Equinox EV and Blazer EVs are the next coming up along with the Silverado truck.

 

[DBoon]

That doesn't say they are getting out of the car business.

It depends on what you call a car. I really don't want what I would consider a "large" SUV as my daily driver - I don't need the size or the room and I don't enjoy driving something that large with all of the inefficiencies and compromises (my opinion) that size entails. Honda, meanwhile, has lots of products that I would classify as "cars", though I have never considered purchasing one of their vehicles before.

I've been a satisfied and happy GM consumer for many years, but the Bolt seems like it will be my last GM purchase. I always felt that GM made solid, reliable drivetrains and all my vehicles from GM have held up well for 200,000+ miles with regular maintenance and non-abusive driving. But I'm not going to purchase the size vehicle they seem intent on offering. But there will likely be many good BEV options in five or so years from now when I am looking to purchase a new car.

 

[blades]

drove a lot of gms til apx 1980 started having various problems - all on the mfg side, typical year of driving back the was around 90k mi. Tried a nissian that didn't go well, couple mini vans dodge ( they were ok family of 3 little ones) then fords, been fords ever since. average about 100 mi. a day now. i will do my own wrenching when i can- but it sure is getting more difficult when you have take a third of the car apart to fix a $20 item. ( maybe annoying would be a better term) the most irritating part is known issues that mfgs fail to step up and address. they are all guilty of this. one only has to look at the litany of class actions due to this. I guess the EPA could share some of this.

 

[begreen]

Up until the relabeling, the station wagon was America's most popular family car. I just see the SUV as a wagon with an edge and a bit more ground clearance and a minivan as a wagon with more capacity.
FWIW, the Equinox, Trailblazer, Blazer, & Trax are not big cars. My SIL has driven a Blazer as her daily for the past 20+ yrs. Just got a new one last year. The Blazer is slightly shorter than a Honda Accord.

 

[gthomas785]

I just see the SUV as a wagon with an edge and a bit more ground clearance and a minivan as a wagon with more capacity.

And both have twice the volume of a station wagon. Growing up we had the original Subaru wagon, it was a great car and felt plenty big for family trips etc. Now even the smallest Subaru available is bigger than that. The size has just gotten out of control. Call them what you want, but I'm in agreement with DBoon that just about every vehicle sold in the US is too big and would not count as a car in my eyes.

Edit: No not the Legacy. This:

 

[stoveliker]

The Equinox, Trailblazaer, and Blazer are big cars - because "big" is relative, and to me they are big.

Moreover, it's a ton of metal people are lugging around daily when most of those miles are driven with one person in the car (if owned by a working person, even a parent)

Moreover, these taller "cars" have far, far poorer gas mileage (i.e. higher impact on the environment) than normal cars, due to not only their weight, but mostly their (wind-) resistance profile.

I subscribe to the notion above that if one has two cars in a household, it in the far majority of cases works to have a true small car and one that can "do what one (sometimes) needs to do", e.g. vacation, lugging kids and friends (carpooling!) to baseball games, etc.

So, we have a mazda 2 and a Rav4.
(We used to have a mazda 2 and a corrolla...!)

I drove to work (15 miles) in my mazda 2 for a decade, including dropping one or two kids off at school with that car on the way to work. Perfectly suitable. (In fact, I am 6'4" and have more headroom in that thing than in the corrolla, and not significantly less than in the Rav4...!)

(Even the Bolt is large; I liked the Volt better...)

Cars here are like food portions: people got used to more even when they did not need it, and now can't live without that more.

As always: my $0.02

 

[begreen]

Growing up, we had Buick Sportswagon. It was not tiny, but good for a big family.

The Equinox, Trailblazaer, and Blazer are big cars - because "big" is relative, and to me they are big.

From a European or Japanese perspective yes. And my wife would agree with you. She only likes small cars to drive. But compared to the American cars of the 50's, through the 1980s and they are definitely downsized.

As for gas mileage, that depends. I had a nice VW Eurovan that got on its best day, 20mpg. Now I have a Dodge Grand Caravan that is larger and much more convenient. It gets 30+ mpg on a trip. 20 mpg is its worse case short trip around town mileage.

 

[EbS-P]

The new proposed mileage standards may have a considerable influence on what manufacturers offer. When trucks sell so well those poor mileage performers will have to get offset somewhere. Look how much larger the RAV4 has become since it was first offered. Can’t chalk all that up to safety standards. It’s all about sales. We like big cars. Looking at the safety of small cars on our road it’s clear that they are not as safe as bigger vehicles. So the response is to by bigger.

 

[gthomas785]

it’s clear that they are not as safe as bigger vehicles.

Not as safe for whom? the occupants maybe. For everyone else, including other drivers on the road, larger vehicles are a menace.

 

[stoveliker]

The new proposed mileage standards may have a considerable influence on what manufacturers offer. When trucks sell so well those poor mileage performers will have to get offset somewhere. Look how much larger the RAV4 has become since it was first offered. Can’t chalk all that up to safety standards. It’s all about sales. We like big cars. Looking at the safety of small cars on our road it’s clear that they are not as safe as bigger vehicles. So the response is to by bigger.

That is not clear. At all.

Are Larger Vehicles or Smaller Cars Safer: The Disturbing Truth

Are larger vehicles or small vehicles safer? We look at the safety pros and cons of each kind of motor vehicle.

www.motorbiscuit.com

" As such, in collisions involving similarly rated vehicles, occupants of the larger vehicle tend to fare better. Ultimately, this means you’ll be safer in a larger vehicle if you collide with other cars. That said, given that these cars are more prone to different types of accidents, you can’t claim them to be safer overall than smaller vehicles."

Myth Busted - Larger, Heavier Vehicles Are Not Necessarily Safer - BestRide

We all know that larger, heavier vehicles are always safer, except that’s not what the real-world data indicate. In the real world, two of the largest, heaviest passenger vehicles on the road, the Chevy Suburban 2WD, and the Ford Expedition 2WD have driver death rates higher than the compact...

bestride.com

The statement "bigger is safer" focuses on one aspect, a collision with another car. But even if the survivability of that is higher, the larger number of accidents (e.g. rollovers) may make the total probability of SHTF be worse than that of a small car.

I also note that in collisions with stationary objects (that don't budge, e.g. mature trees in rural America... ), a big car brings a lot more kinetic energy to the incident - all of which has to be dissipated in that bigger car.

Things are not as black and white as "bigger is safer".

 

[EbS-P]

That is not clear. At all.

Are Larger Vehicles or Smaller Cars Safer: The Disturbing Truth

Are larger vehicles or small vehicles safer? We look at the safety pros and cons of each kind of motor vehicle.

www.motorbiscuit.com

" As such, in collisions involving similarly rated vehicles, occupants of the larger vehicle tend to fare better. Ultimately, this means you’ll be safer in a larger vehicle if you collide with other cars. That said, given that these cars are more prone to different types of accidents, you can’t claim them to be safer overall than smaller vehicles."

Myth Busted - Larger, Heavier Vehicles Are Not Necessarily Safer - BestRide

We all know that larger, heavier vehicles are always safer, except that’s not what the real-world data indicate. In the real world, two of the largest, heaviest passenger vehicles on the road, the Chevy Suburban 2WD, and the Ford Expedition 2WD have driver death rates higher than the compact...

bestride.com

The statement "bigger is safer" focuses on one aspect, a collision with another car. But even if the survivability of that is higher, the larger number of accidents (e.g. rollovers) may make the total probability of SHTF be worse than that of a small car.

I also note that in collisions with stationary objects (that don't budge, e.g. mature trees in rural America... ), a big car brings a lot more kinetic energy to the incident - all of which has to be dissipated in that bigger car.

Things are not as black and white as "bigger is safer".

Not as safe for whom? the occupants maybe. For everyone else, including other drivers on the road, larger vehicles are a menace.

Here is where I get my data.

Driver death rates by make and model

One way to compare the relative safety of vehicles is to look at driver death rates.

www.iihs.org

 

[gthomas785]

Here is where I get my data.

Driver death rates by make and model

One way to compare the relative safety of vehicles is to look at driver death rates.

www.iihs.org

I'm curious if they have data for all casualties involved not just the driver?

 

[stoveliker]

Here is where I get my data.

Driver death rates by make and model

One way to compare the relative safety of vehicles is to look at driver death rates.

www.iihs.org

Average "mini": 22 - 13 - 5
Average "small": "22 - 13 - 5
Average "large": 22 - 13 - 5


Zero (average) difference (I used 4-door cars, as we were talking about family cars, etc.)

Larger cars are not safer than smaller ones...

 

[SpaceBus]

I think larger cars can be safer in a collision with another car (but not always), but when talking about stationary objects, the story is different. I think make and model are much more significant than size. I would rather be in the smallest Volvo or Acura than the largest GM.

 

[gthomas785]

It's an arms race-- you may be safer in an accident but only as long as you're driving the largest vehicle. And your safety comes at other drivers' expense, because a collision with a larger vehicle is much more dangerous. Meanwhile pedestrians are also much more vulnerable with large vehicles around. See https://towardsdatascience.com/suvs-are-killing-people-de6ce08bac3d

 

[EbS-P]

Average "mini": 22 - 13 - 5
Average "small": "22 - 13 - 5
Average "large": 22 - 13 - 5


Zero (average) difference (I used 4-door cars, as we were talking about family cars, etc.)

Larger cars are not safer than smaller ones...

Average "mini": 22 - 13 - 5
Average "small": "22 - 13 - 5
Average "large": 22 - 13 - 5


Zero (average) difference (I used 4-door cars, as we were talking about family cars, etc.)

Larger cars are not safer than smaller ones...

I just checked mini four door. And it’s the average is way over 22.


104 by my math.

 

[stoveliker]

I just checked mini four door. And it’s the average is way over 22.


104 by my math.

View attachment 312474 View attachment 312475

My screenshots (see the bottom line of the table for the average of all vehicles).

And this is from *your* website.

Mini:

Small (too long of a table, so only the bottom few lines:

Large:

Identical numbers for the averages of the classes.

If I understand all this correctly, there is no statistical difference between the *collection* of small and large vehicles considered here.
Of course one good large car may be better than a bad small car and vice versa.
But the statement was that "large is safer than small". That is a statement about the statistics of collections/groups of vehicles in a category. According to the source you provided, that is simply not the case.

To me this shows the common wisdom that "you're safer if you drive the larger vehicle" is bogus. Death rates are all the same, for all categories (overall, multivehicle, single vehicle, rollover).

 

[EbS-P]

My screenshots (see the bottom line of the table for the average of all vehicles).

And this is from *your* website.

Mini:
View attachment 312477

Small (too long of a table, so only the bottom few lines:
View attachment 312478

Large:
View attachment 312479

Identical numbers for the averages of the classes.

If I understand all this correctly, there is no statistical difference between the *collection* of small and large vehicles considered here.
Of course one good large car may be better than a bad small car and vice versa.
But the statement was that "large is safer than small". That is a statement about the statistics of collections/groups of vehicles in a category. According to the source you provided, that is simply not the case.

To me this shows the common wisdom that "you're safer if you drive the larger vehicle" is bogus. Death rates are all the same, for all categories (overall, multivehicle, single vehicle, rollover).

I’m reading the “all vehicles” as all the vehicles in every category not just the category listed. Hence why they are all the same.

I’m surprised that the data set confidence intervals are so large and the relatively few models that they have a confidence range for.

 

[begreen]

I think larger cars can be safer in a collision with another car (but not always), but when talking about stationary objects, the story is different. I think make and model are much more significant than size. I would rather be in the smallest Volvo or Acura than the largest GM.

Our Chevy Volt is a compact car. It has an excellent crash test rating. I have seen some bad crashes reported in the Volt forums and the occupants were very grateful that they walked away from some very ugly situations.

2018 Chevrolet Volt : Latest Prices, Reviews, Specs, Photos and Incentives | Autoblog

Get in-depth info on the 2018 Chevrolet Volt model year including prices, specs, reviews, pictures, safety and reliability ratings.

www.autoblog.com

Apparently it did better than a Volvo S40 which is about the same size.

2011 Volvo S40 Crash Test Ratings - Autoblog

Review the 2011 S40 crash safety ratings from the IIHS and NHTSA to see how well passengers are protected in front, rear and side impact collisions.

www.autoblog.com

 

[stoveliker]

I’m reading the “all vehicles” as all the vehicles in every category not just the category listed. Hence why they are all the same.

Hm, maybe you're correct.

You'd have to look at the first and second moment of the distributions for the different classes. The large class only has a few vehicles (and misses both extremes of the much larger small class) - so it's hard to compare classes.

The mean overall death rate of the "small" class is 48.8 . The mean of the "large" class is 45.
I did not calculate the second moment, so I don't know whether this small difference is significant, but I still hazard a guess that it's not statistically defensible to state that large cars are safer than small ones.

 

[EbS-P]

Hm, maybe you're correct.

You'd have to look at the first and second moment of the distributions for the different classes. The large class only has a few vehicles (and misses both extremes of the much larger small class) - so it's hard to compare classes.

The mean overall death rate of the "small" class is 48.8 . The mean of the "large" class is 45.
I did not calculate the second moment, so I don't know whether this small difference is significant, but I still hazard a guess that it's not statistically defensible to state that large cars are safer than small ones.

I find our ( the US’s) acceptance (or ignorance) of automobile risks absurd. It shouldn’t be this hard to figure to understand the data.

 

[semipro]

This discussion reminds me of this video and the fallacy that vehicles used to be built safer than now.

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