Ashford 30 Smoke Smell, again

[lsucet]

Like bends, altitude affects draft strength. Related to air density at lower atmospheric pressure due to less of that heavy air between you and the moon!

I would enjoy testing my draft. I’m guessing that very few forum members, stove enthusiasts, have ever used a draft meter.

It will not hurt at all to test it. This is the way i see it. There is a lot of contradiction on those statement on any manual related to wood stoves. they all say, depending manufacture that do not exceed 0.05 or 0.06. We all know that the wood needs to be char and the temp in the firebox will rise and flue temp will also be higher exceeding those WC figures. Including the shortest chimney will go over when burning hot.
The only way i see that can be under control is installing a barometric damper inline. I did it with previous stove for about a week but i know was not recommended for solid fuel.But, yes, it did work. with the BK you can have the proper draft maybe when the thermostat is closed, but what happens when opens up asking for more heat? It will exceed those numbers in no time. I don't know what can be the solution to all this draft issue. What can be the solution is not recommended.

Many of us don't have choices to modified the setup cause other regulations. How can we fix this if draft is the issue?

 

[Highbeam]

Maybe draft has nothing to do with it and we’re barking up the wrong tree. Even if that’s the case, the specifications in the manual need to be fixed.

 

[aaronk25]

with the BK you can have the proper draft maybe when the thermostat is closed, but what happens when opens up asking for more heat? It will exceed those numbers in no time.

See that’s the thing, if it’s cold the draft is the highest at closed T-stat due to the chimney pulling hard against the shut T-stat. Keep in mind the airwash is between the two. The draft is still higher than full open T-stat ever after a hour of cruising at low temperature after the chimney has cooled some.

Total volume of air movement is way less at closed T-stat but with a well insulated chimney the pressure difference is high because the chimeny can’t pull enough air due to the T-stat is closed. It really comes down to how much heat does the chimney retain (how well insulated)? The manufactured chimneys inside a chase blocking the wind are amazing from this standpoint.

This is proven by seeing a manometer reading of .9 at closed T stat then going full open and it will drop to .05, initially. After 20 mins (chimney warms) it might clime to .12 (just a example).

So why would t it stink at .12 on high vs .9 on low? Well your moving day 3 times or more air volume compared to t stat set at low and air has weight and velocity, so the shear column of the air going across the air wash is way higher and the air continues down the face of the glass and keeps the smoke off the glass and the stink as well.





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[lsucet]

See that’s the thing, if it’s cold the draft is the highest at closed T-stat due to the chimney pulling hard against the shut T-stat. Keep in mind the airwash is between the two. The draft is still higher than full open T-stat ever after a hour of cruising at low temperature after the chimney has cooled some.

Total volume of air movement is way less at closed T-stat but with a well insulated chimney the pressure difference is high because the chimeny can’t pull enough air due to the T-stat is closed. It really comes down to how much heat does the chimney retain (how well insulated)? The manufactured chimneys inside a chase blocking the wind are amazing from this standpoint.

This is proven by seeing a manometer reading of .9 at closed T stat then going full open and it will drop to .05, initially. After 20 mins (chimney warms) it might clime to .12 (just a example).

So why would t it stink at .12 on high vs .9 on low? Well your moving day 3 times or more air volume compared to t stat set at low and air has weight and velocity, so the shear column of the air going across the air wash is way higher and the air continues down the face of the glass and keeps the smoke off the glass and the stink as well.





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Understood and great explanation. What still bring the question of, What can be done to keep a steady draft regardless t-stat operation?
As I mentioned before the component that can fix that issue it is not recommended unless a professional decide and give the ok.
And then, you will have room air going straight into the chimney plus the smell of creosote. You fix one and still have the other.

Key damper helps but don't fix it and keep adding more key dampers to the system is insane. What is the solution here? This is a good one.

 

[aaronk25]

Ya your right and the key damper is only good at a given (static T stat setting and fuel load) plus it’s manual, but the only other option is a barometric damper but the downside you mention of using room air and then cooling the chimney is a sucky option.

Need a key damper that is electronically controlled thermostatic controlled but that kills the beauty of the simple wood stove, plus I don’t think there available. Even the fans take away from the “pureness” of wood burning.

I don’t know the answer. I think I could figure it out but like many this is a hobby for me, not what I do for a living.


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[Calentarse]

Very frustrating, to say the least. Having to rob Peter to pay Paul with a $4000 appliance is not what I have in mind.

Now that the cold is moving out of the east and I'm turning the stove back, I get to smell it's ugly stink. The good news is that the stench rises, and now that we have a two story house, it's mostly headed upstairs where we don't spend as much time.

Would be grateful of anyone chiming in to offer a known solution...for now, I'm going to keep charing the wood really well and run it hotter than I want to try to minimize the smell...

 

[Calentarse]

I remember another member had the PH and couldnt solve the smoke smell issue. After many tries gave up got their money back and got another brand stove. Same issue. Turned out it was a problem with his house. I only bring it up because you have to look at everything not just the stove.

I am intrigued by your comment. I don't know if any of you read a post that I wrote before having my new BK installed but one of the installers tried to convince me to move the stove to the North or west side of my house instead of the south or east because of a theory that the stove would work better- about gravitational pull rotation of the Earth. Everyone on the forum seemed to dispel this crazy theory and now I can't help but question whether there was some truth to it... Why is it that I seem to be having issues with these stoves While others do not. I've gone through all of the common denominators like my wood moisture, Etc and just can't seem to pinpoint the issue.

 

[Calentarse]

I was certain regarding my new purchase come spring time. A Chinook was going into my newly constructed house.

This smoke thing makes me nervous.......

My VC will backpuff on occasion but I know I caused it by shutting it down too quickly. And it can be easily fixed by adding some more air.

Keystone is probably equal to the Chinook in terms of heat output. Decisions, decisions.......

I used to own a VC encore and know all too well of the back puffing woes. The Blaze King is superior in its ability to regulate the burn rate ie the thermostat. The Encore was supposed to have the same technology but couldn't come close to the Blaze King in my experience. The room it was in was so I comfortably hot no matter the thermostat setting. Never again.

As much as I love nearly everything about the stove, I won't be buying another and sadly can't recommend it to anyone who has a sensitive nose. I have seen enough testimony on this forum alone to believe that the stove is at least susceptible to a smoke smell under certain conditions. I'm not entirely sure what these conditions are since I smell it nearly all the time at the beginning of a load, and it's present for the first half of the load on low. I believe that some smell is normal for burning wood inside a house and I also believe that this stove is capable of burning without a smell for some. I only seek to help others and to help myself by writing my testimony on this forum. Hopefully some good can come from it! And if BK reaches out and wants to try to put some resources into fixing it, I will gladly accept help. I certainly WANT to help find a solution and perfect the stove.

I'm not on the Forum enough to be able to recommend a stove that would compete with the Chinook. My parents have a Woodstock stove and it comes with its own challenges. My in-laws have a Hearthstone and I haven't heard of any issues from them (their house is always 80 degrees though - don't know if those things can be turned down) . Just my anecdotal observation, I also have not seen any negative comments about any Pacific Energy stoves either, but then again, I'm only reading forums that interest me; I don't read them all.

 

[begreen]

Did you also have a Woodstock stove at one point?

 

[DuaeGuttae]

And if BK reaches out and wants to try to put some resources into fixing it, I will gladly accept help. I certainly WANT to help find a solution and perfect the stove.

Have you seen BKVP’s request for information that he posted on the Everything BK thread? I think it’s post 771. It looks like the company is committed to resolving the situation for every user.

I appreciate your posting your experiences. I think it helps people be more informed and as someone considering a BK in the future, I am following this issue.

 

[Calentarse]

Did you also have a Woodstock stove at one point?

Nope, never. My parents have a PH...I used to have a VC Encore 2n1

 

[aaronk25]

I used to own a VC encore and know all too well of the back puffing woes. The Blaze King is superior in its ability to regulate the burn rate ie the thermostat. The Encore was supposed to have the same technology but couldn't come close to the Blaze King in my experience. The room it was in was so I comfortably hot no matter the thermostat setting. Never again.

As much as I love nearly everything about the stove, I won't be buying another and sadly can't recommend it to anyone who has a sensitive nose. I have seen enough testimony on this forum alone to believe that the stove is at least susceptible to a smoke smell under certain conditions. I'm not entirely sure what these conditions are since I smell it nearly all the time at the beginning of a load, and it's present for the first half of the load on low. I believe that some smell is normal for burning wood inside a house and I also believe that this stove is capable of burning without a smell for some. I only seek to help others and to help myself by writing my testimony on this forum. Hopefully some good can come from it! And if BK reaches out and wants to try to put some resources into fixing it, I will gladly accept help. I certainly WANT to help find a solution and perfect the stove.

I'm not on the Forum enough to be able to recommend a stove that would compete with the Chinook. My parents have a Woodstock stove and it comes with its own challenges. My in-laws have a Hearthstone and I haven't heard of any issues from them (their house is always 80 degrees though - don't know if those things can be turned down) . Just my anecdotal observation, I also have not seen any negative comments about any Pacific Energy stoves either, but then again, I'm only reading forums that interest me; I don't read them all.

Others on here including myself have pointed out how critical it is to ensure your draft is within spec .03-.05. I haven’t seen anywhere in your posts where you took the advice and check this VERY VERY critical measurement. Without doing your due diligence first you are not in a position to be offering creditable negative recommendations.

How about take the advice others have laid out and report back and let us know what the result is?

 

[Calentarse]

Others on here including myself have pointed out how critical it is to ensure your draft is within spec .03-.05. I haven’t seen anywhere in your posts where you took the advice and check this VERY VERY critical measurement. Without doing your due diligence first you are not in a position to be offering creditable negative recommendations.

How about take the advice others have laid out and report back and let us know what the result is?

I can certainly try. I have no experience with it, so how would I go about doing this? Must I hire someone?

 

[begreen]

It might be better for BK to have the dealer come out and do this measurement. The target spec is very narrow and IMO not reflective of real world variations in draft. Seasonal temperature variations can change draft readings significantly.

 

[Joyboy]

Others on here including myself have pointed out how critical it is to ensure your draft is within spec .03-.05. I haven’t seen anywhere in your posts where you took the advice and check this VERY VERY critical measurement. Without doing your due diligence first you are not in a position to be offering creditable negative recommendations.

How about take the advice others have laid out and report back and let us know what the result is?

Sure he can offer recommendations. He has now owned two of the stoves. Some people argue against stoves they haven’t ever owned. It’s his opinion.

Not everyone is interested in troubleshooting and fixing problems.

I know there are many happy owners on here that don’t have this problem. But it doesn’t mean his opinion doesn’t count.

 

[Highbeam]

Only a handful of forum participants, all of us stove overachievers, have ever touched a manometer. The focus has been on chimney height and construction specifics until just recently.

We don’t even know if bk has decided whether the minimum chimney height requirement or the draft strength requirement is more important but we do know that you usually can’t hit both.

 

[Calentarse]

Have you seen BKVP’s request for information that he posted on the Everything BK thread? I think it’s post 771. It looks like the company is committed to resolving the situation for every user.

I appreciate your posting your experiences. I think it helps people be more informed and as someone considering a BK in the future, I am following this issue.

I have not seen that; unfortunately don’t have time to keep up with the BK thread. I will look for that post...

 

[aaronk25]

I can certainly try. I have no experience with it, so how would I go about doing this? Must I hire someone?

Ok that’s a real fair question. I’d be glad to help. You can certainly hire a chimney sweeper but ask them if they have the ability to do a manometer test. Run it on high for 30 mins to get the chimney up to hot temp and check the reading. Do the same on low.

If you want to do it yourself, it’s simple. This manometer will do it. It’s simple but precise, at least for stove and (furnace work if that ever arises). Buy a digital one if you want, but this is about as cheap as it gets with precision. What it involves with this unit is setting it on a flat surface or mounting on wall behind. It has its own built in level so it’s easy to get it level so it will give a correct reading.

It comes with a 1/8” rubber tube about 8’ worth but the challenge is if you use the rubber tube to check draft you get about a 2 sec reading and then it starts to melt. What I found that works is:

Manometer:

https://www.zoro.com/dwyer-instrume...MI3faotNHJ2AIV27jACh0fjgUYEAQYCCABEgIEd_D_BwE

Tubing:

The soft rubber tube that comes with the manometer will fit inside the copper tube. After pushing about a inch in it gets hard to push any further. Ok pull it out and out a dab of silicone around the first inch of rubber tube then push it in to the copper tube. The smear silicone around the transition between the 2. Let it dry. Then test it, by sucking very gently on the copper tube (yay I know), while u watch the manometer, then lick your thumb and quickly cover the hole. If you did it fast the manometer should show a rise and short fall that stopped when u put your thumb over it.

It should stay at this indication until you release your thumb. If your transition between hoses leaks you will see the manometer drop with your thumb over it.

Ok it’s kinda a cool little instrument. But by now your probably annoyed with this whole ordeal so moving on.......

You can leave the copper at full length or trim it upto you, the test will come out the same. With a leather glove pull your cat thermometer out of the whole and put the copper end in. Now watch your manometer. Have fun with it, burn it on high for a while then turn down the T-stat abruptly. With 25’ of chimney drafting hard what I think you will see is your manometer spike way up and you will smell your stink or your stoves stink I mean. Here some more pics......ok here is unhooked

See the tube ready to go in cat hole?::::



Ok tube in hole:


Here is the reading with a 600f flue on high but with the stove top damper partly closed (also see the transition between copper to rubber hose):



So here is damper wide open:


See the draft is to high when the damper is open. It was even slightly high when it was partially closed but it early in the burn and I’ve learned the chimney will cool and reduce draft and it will end up right at .04ish.

It’s easy to do but hire a pro if you don’t want to. Oh and the second I flipped the damper to full open, take one guess what I smelt. Yep.

 

[coutufr]

Is there someone who understands why too much draft could cause a woodstove to emit a smell. I believe it does just I don’t understand why?

 

[aaronk25]

Is there someone who understands why too much draft could cause a woodstove to emit a smell. I believe it does just I don’t understand why?

It’s just a theory. But t stat gets closed and chimney is pulling (drafting) in excess of spec and draw a pretend line though how the air flows though the stove. Off the air wash down the glass door to bottom or middle of fire, then exits up though the cat.

The chimney is like a vacuum, the t-stat restricts the flow, then if the draft is to high the air goes directly from the airwash to the cat(or some of the air), when the laminar flow of air breaks down the air becomes turbulent and buffets. Anyone ever been up for a flight lesson knows that when you slow a plane up until it won’t fly it pulses (buffets) for a few seconds and drops. I this instance the angle air wash is the wing and when the flow of air separates due to excessive low pressure, vaccum, draft or whatever term works the best, the air bangs against the glass.

It pushes the leached creosote further into the gasket and the. The hot knife edge vaporizes the smoke or kind of smolders it.

And that advice may be worth just as much as what you paid for it


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[coutufr]

It makes sense. Turbulence caused by excessive draft is causing the smell. Is it standard for a woodstove to have such a tight target for draft?

 

[Highbeam]

The low and tight draft spec is not unique to bk. Trouble is, almost nobody ever checks it, they just make sure their chimney meets the minimum length requirement. The wood furnace guys use a barometric damper to hit the low draft spec which is not desirable for a stove.

 

[rdust]

Others on here including myself have pointed out how critical it is to ensure your draft is within spec .03-.05. I haven’t seen anywhere in your posts where you took the advice and check this VERY VERY critical measurement. Without doing your due diligence first you are not in a position to be offering creditable negative recommendations.

How about take the advice others have laid out and report back and let us know what the result is?

You can’t build a stove and market it to the masses that requires a “critical” draft window. His chimney is a 25’, this stove should be working plain and simple.

25’ straight up, double wall with an OAK, that’s what you call a slam dunk.

I’ve hung out here a long time now and have never read about any other stove brand having this many issues that are the same.(not counting VC junkers)

Woodstock had a smell issue with the PH and fixed it quickly.

 

[tarzan]

You can’t build a stove and market it to the masses that requires a “critical” draft window. His chimney is a 25’, this stove should be working plain and simple.

25’ straight up, double wall with an OAK, that’s what you call a slam dunk.

I’ve hung out here a long time now and have never read about any other stove brand having this many issues that are the same.(not counting VC junkers)

Woodstock had a smell issue with the PH and fixed it quickly.

I agree. I love my BK but if I were to have to install a manometer and a manual draft damper so I could constantly monitor and correct inches of water column so it wouldn't stink up my house, that would be a deal breaker!

 

[Calentarse]

Wow, boy have I stirred the pot. I appreciate everyone’s opinions and posts.

@aaronk25 thank you for that write up with the pictures. I will come right out and say that I do not have the time, patience, or ability to do that. If BK says it has to be done, I’ll call someone in HVAC or my installer to see if they can help me. I really appreciate you sharing your opinion and have confidence in your theory. I just worry that if it’s true I may have to replace this stove because there’s no way I’m manually controlling all that. Maybe one day when I am retired!

At my old house I spent well over $1000 adding and swapping out pipe for the best scenario I could in a rancher. I replaced bolts for the window gasket, and replaced the RTV once by myself and paid for my sweep to come out and do it his way. We never did resolve the issue, although I do think it improved slightly when my installer put in his white rope gasket in his expert manner.

Now, in my new house, I have spent $6800 on a new setup, moving the stove in the room to a somewhat odd place to avoid rafters forcing the installer to go straight up (through a bedroom!) and not curve into a closet, so I could have no bends, all to avoid a smoke smell presumably caused by poor draft. I added an extra 4’ on the roof just to be absolutely sure I had enough draft to avoid this issue. I have worked my tail off getting cords and cords of extra wood these past few years, striving to get far ahead, and moved the entire pile out from under trees into the sun, keeping it fully covered on top, to ensure my wood is seasoned (some of the maple is like paper around 10-12%). After everything I have been through, I’m finding it hard to believe that this is not a design defect. I also SMH to think that one must use a manometer and manual dampers to avoid this smell.

I’m an open-minded guy who will gladly work with BK to troubleshoot further because I do love the stove (it passes the WAF) and I want to get this issue resolved. I’m still amazed it can operate the way it does and don’t want it to be too good to be true. I think I will respond to @BKVP s offer from post 771 of the BK thread.