Anyone know about Smartstove technology

[John Ackerly]

I'm the Guinea pig who bought the Englander NC 13 and having it rigged up with the automated stove: (broken link removed to http://inveninc.com/SmartStoveForum/index.php?topic=46.0), so I'll report back once I get it installed and experiment with it. Things is, half dozen others already have various stoves outfitted with this technology and from what I hear, they really like it. Tons of techies have thought of this idea, but finally someone is doing it and willing to put it on stoves for a test drive. The Englander NC 13 only cost me $650 and the automated controls will cost another $650, including all the labor. So even if only use it for a few seasons, I'm sure I can resell it for something. But I think Inveninc is on to something big. Europeans stoves will probably commercialize it first. All this technology already works well on log wood boilers, so its really just taking these sensors and controls and moving them from the basement to the living room. Anyway, should have this thing installed and working next week. If anyone in the DC area wants to come over and check it out, shoot me an email. I live in Takoma Park Maryland.

 

[bag of hammers]

You might want to click the link I provided to check out the product before offering opinions, just my 2 cents. I will post it again: (broken link removed to http://inveninc.com/products.htm)

If you want to see pictures of an actual install click the link and sign up for the forum so you can view the pics of the ongoing NC13 install. That link again is: (broken link removed to http://inveninc.com/SmartStoveForum/index.php?topic=46.0)

I did - my opinions were also (I thought) kinda posed as questions. Thanks for the add'l link. tfdchief I think you hit exactly on what I was trying to say and much more eloquently.

 

[tfdchief]

I'm the Guinea pig who bought the Englander NC 13 and having it rigged up with the automated stove: (broken link removed to http://inveninc.com/SmartStoveForum/index.php?topic=46.0), so I'll report back once I get it installed and experiment with it. Things is, half dozen others already have various stoves outfitted with this technology and from what I hear, they really like it. Tons of techies have thought of this idea, but finally someone is doing it and willing to put it on stoves for a test drive. The Englander NC 13 only cost me $650 and the automated controls will cost another $650, including all the labor. So even if only use it for a few seasons, I'm sure I can resell it for something. But I think Inveninc is on to something big. Europeans stoves will probably commercialize it first. All this technology already works well on log wood boilers, so its really just taking these sensors and controls and moving them from the basement to the living room. Anyway, should have this thing installed and working next week. If anyone in the DC area wants to come over and check it out, shoot me an email. I live in Takoma Park Maryland.

JA, it will be very interesting to hear from you.

 

[DexterDay]

JA, it will be very interesting to hear from you.

X100... Looking forward to this

 

[bag of hammers]

All this technology already works well on log wood boilers, so its really just taking these sensors and controls and moving them from the basement to the living room.

That's a great point - hope the pilot goes well for you.

 

[begreen]

Cool John, thanks for the update. I'm looking forward to hearing how this works for you.

 

[jdp1152]

These technologies work well on a Big Green Egg. Google BGE Stoker. I personally don't use it as it removes some of the fun from smoking, but I understand why people do. Not a new concept and pretty well vetted across a number of applications.

 

[dafattkidd]

Very curious to see how this works. John, thanks for posting. Looking forward to the real world experience. Have you run the stove without the smart stove technology?

 

[ControlFreak]

I think it's a cool idea! It is much more sophisticated than the BK draft t-stat with lots of cool features.. Would love to see one in operation..

Ray

Hello Raybonz,

I see that you are here in MA, in Carver. Here's an invitation for you to drop in and see SmartStove in action, here in Holden, MA. Would be helpful to have a seasoned hearth.com person report back. I am free this weekend, and will welcome your visit any time. Send me a PM if you are interested. Same invite applies to anyone else close enough to drop in. This Englander 15NC will ship to John Ackerly on Monday.
Thanks, Dan

 

[corey21]

I'm the Guinea pig who bought the Englander NC 13 and having it rigged up with the automated stove: (broken link removed to http://inveninc.com/SmartStoveForum/index.php?topic=46.0), so I'll report back once I get it installed and experiment with it. Things is, half dozen others already have various stoves outfitted with this technology and from what I hear, they really like it. Tons of techies have thought of this idea, but finally someone is doing it and willing to put it on stoves for a test drive. The Englander NC 13 only cost me $650 and the automated controls will cost another $650, including all the labor. So even if only use it for a few seasons, I'm sure I can resell it for something. But I think Inveninc is on to something big. Europeans stoves will probably commercialize it first. All this technology already works well on log wood boilers, so its really just taking these sensors and controls and moving them from the basement to the living room. Anyway, should have this thing installed and working next week. If anyone in the DC area wants to come over and check it out, shoot me an email. I live in Takoma Park Maryland.

Cant wait to hear the results.

 

[jharkin]

True, but shutting off a gas valve or oil burner or an electric disconnect with a fail safe high limit switch that is basically mechanical, i. e. a thermo disc is fairly simple and fail safe. Shutting off burning chunks of wood would be a little more difficult I imagine.

Excellent point, I was thinking the same. Gas or oil burner both have to be fed a continuous supply of fuel. Any failure condition that shuts off the fuel kills the fire instantly - nothing to run away. . In a gas boiler the solenoid valve has to be fed electricity constantly to keep the gas supply open. Any electrical failure and the spring closes it immediately. Similarly for an oil burner if you loose power the pump and blower shutdown.

In both types if you had some kind of fail on condition from the tstat that continually called for heat, there is usually a high limit control (hot water or forced air) or low water cutoff (steam) as a second level backup to shut things down.

 

[northernontario]

Wish I didn't have to register for ANOTHER forum just to see the pictures. I find it annoying when forum mod's set the options like that.

 

[ControlFreak]

Wish I didn't have to register for ANOTHER forum just to see the pictures. I find it annoying when forum mod's set the options like that.

Hey Northern,
Try again. Guests should now be able to see attachments.
Thanks,
Dan

 

[northernontario]

Hey Northern,
Try again. Guests should now be able to see attachments.
Thanks,
Dan

Yes! Thank you!

 

[bag of hammers]

nothing to run away

+1. I think the discussion here is also a bit about managing the expectations. This could be great technology, great benefit to a lot of stove owners, etc. Not trying to slam it, just trying to understand it, and point out that (at least in IMHO), regardless of this or any new technology, or how good it may be, a wood stove will always require extra "care and feeding" - this aspect to me is part of the whole (excellent) wood burning experience. The Invenic stuff could certainly be part of that experience, even enhance it, but it would never replace it. I don't think that's their intent, but it may be some folks' expectation. Just sayin'. The points by tfdchief and Jeremy are very helpful in balancing out the whole discussion.

 

[northernontario]

There are a couple of ways to build failsafes into the design, since it's all custom anyways. A springloaded damper on the primary air, with an electromagnetic latch... if the power goes out, latch opens, damper closes. (same setup used on fire doors in commercial buildings).

A failsafe on the flue temps would be harder to do without sensors to digital temp gauge... bimetalic switches don't go hot enough.

 

[jharkin]

There are a couple of ways to build failsafes into the design, since it's all custom anyways. A springloaded damper on the primary air, with an electromagnetic latch... if the power goes out, latch opens, damper closes. (same setup used on fire doors in commercial buildings).

A failsafe on the flue temps would be harder to do without sensors to digital temp gauge... bimetalic switches don't go hot enough.

Some good points - I can add that I'm not against the idea at all. In fact I could see some value in a system that would monitor things and slow the fire in case certain limits where breached. For example on a catalytic it would be cool to have it monitor catalyst temperature and close the air if the 1700F limit was exceeded. A system like that would make me more comfortable running an overnight load on a very cold night at more than minimum air.

 

[BrotherBart]

If ESW is already announcing the thing you can bet it has been put through its paces in that burn lab down there. A lot. Would love to get a dozen shots of Crown down Mike's throat and get some info.

 

[Slow1]

BB is onto a good point - I would feel much more comfortable with such controls if vetted by the manufacturer of my stove. Especially as it sounds like the costs are rather high ($650 for controls w/installation?). I'm having a hard time imagining that I'd ever get that much value out of automated controls on my stove given that I rarely make any adjustments in the air control once set anyway. I'm quite satisfied with the performance of my stove as it is.

The other thing I wonder about is the fact that I do most of my fine control adjustments (reducing air to the cruising point) based only marginally on any temperature readings. Although I do look for a temp to start the shutdown sequence, I rely on visual queues from the fire in order to know if I'm shutting down fast enough or too fast (i.e. firebox should not go dark immediately, I like to see nice secondaries, the "color" of the flame changes etc). If I had to wait for temperature changes between each adjustment I imagine it would take a long time to get settled....

 

[mellow]

I was seriously tempted to buy this setup last year but I instead spent my money on buying a new insert. With a tube secondary stove with only 1 lever to have to hook up this makes sense, for a CAT stove with bypass AND air levers it starts to make less sense, not to mention we do not have as bad of spikes of burn temps. as the tube stoves, cats burn more consistent through the burn cycle already.

 

[northernontario]

If I had to wait for temperature changes between each adjustment I imagine it would take a long time to get settled....

Using a properly located thermocouple, you can get instantanious temperature changes... measuring the actual flue temps (inside the pipe, not the surface) will show changes in fire INSTANTLY. If I bump my damper, I instantly see temps start raising or lowering.

As for a cat stove, it wouldn't be hard to measure temps and have a setpoint when to engage the cat.

Using visual cues can also be very helpful though... there's a difference between 1000F flue temps, an 800F firebox temp, and a 500 stovetop temp. You need to know when the "fire" as a whole is hot enough to start damping down the air to optimize secondary burn, but keep the fire hot enough to keep secondaries going.

 

[Slow1]

Using a properly located thermocouple, you can get instantanious temperature changes... measuring the actual flue temps (inside the pipe, not the surface) will show changes in fire INSTANTLY. If I bump my damper, I instantly see temps start raising or lowering.

As for a cat stove, it wouldn't be hard to measure temps and have a setpoint when to engage the cat.

I believe we are in agreement as a whole - but your comments, particularly the "properly located..." further support my position that I'd like to have the solution well tested on my stove before I buy. I generally think the manufacturers are in the best place to do this and I support the general theme of the solution given the cavets already mentioned (proper fail-safe conditions).

I also would very much enjoy working on this problem - it seems like quite an interesting automation project from the algorithm development point of view. Only thing better than playing with fire is doing it with computers? heh - I could see a remote control app as well so you could monitor and adjust from anywhere. Or have the system take room and outside temps as well as target low/high room temp goals and try to optimize this with the load burn time (i.e. tell it you want to reload at 10p and optimize the 2p load to be ready at that time). Complex problems to be sure, but sure would be fun to solve.

 

[blades]

Heck all I would like would be a rig to open up the air control at say 200 deg which is about all coals at that point, so I do not have work so hard at reducing the quanity of them before a reload. I could do it with a simple timer and a solenoid likely work just fine

 

[begreen]

Wow, that took some serious modifications to make it work. The exposed primary and secondary ports on the PE would be a much easier mod.

 

[raybonz]

Hello Raybonz,

I see that you are here in MA, in Carver. Here's an invitation for you to drop in and see SmartStove in action, here in Holden, MA. Would be helpful to have a seasoned hearth.com person report back. I am free this weekend, and will welcome your visit any time. Send me a PM if you are interested. Same invite applies to anyone else close enough to drop in. This Englander 15NC will ship to John Ackerly on Monday.
Thanks, Dan

Thanks for the offer Dan but my 3 year old grand daughter is doing a sleep over here this weekend.. I see you called it a 15NC or this a 13NC typo? I do look forward to seeing how it operates.

Ray