Any way to use a free standing stove in this situation?

[fabsroman]

Thinking about buying a new to us house, and putting in a wood burning furnace like I did here will most likely not be an option. However, there is a gas fire place in the great room with a brick and mortar chimney. I am including pics of the great room and the back of the house with the chimney. The chimney runs all the way from the basement floor up past the 2nd story roof line. Just wondering if there is any way I can modify the hearth so I can use a free standing wood stove instead of an insert.

Yes, I know I need to check the chimney, make sure it is sound, make sure it has a ceramic liner in it, etc. and then run a stainless steel liner up the chimney.

Looking to go with a free standing wood burning stove because I have access to "free" firewood and because I think I need all the heat I can possibly get to cut down the heating cost in this house.

Anybody have any before/after pics where this was done. I'm just trying to see if this is a viable option, and if so, how it it done.

Thanks

 

[Tar12]

First let me say that is a beautiful home! I don't see any reason why it can't be done...at what cost and effort...the professionals here will be along to guide you in the right direction.

 

[FTG-05]

It can't be done, sorry.

Here's proof in case you don't believe me:

 

[fabsroman]

It can't be done, sorry.

Here's proof in case you don't believe me:

Think I have already figured it out. I am going to weld some plate steel together with a base that will rest on the wood floor in front of the hearth. I will sit the free standing stove on top of the plate steel. Going to paint the steel black just like the stove. I'll run the plate steel back into the chimney area too. Then, I will go with black pipe all the way up to the ceiling, penetrate through the ceiling with stainless insulated pipe from the ceiling junction box, and then penetrate through the roof right there. The chimney should penetrate the roof line right at the very top of the roof. I will just need to figure out how a penetration is done right at the crest of the roof. 2 stories of single wall black pipe should help to heat the upper level of the house too.

Now, only question is going to be whether I can use the chimney for a stove in the basement.

 

[begreen]

Think I have already figured it out. I am going to weld some plate steel together with a base that will rest on the wood floor in front of the hearth. I will sit the free standing stove on top of the plate steel. Going to paint the steel black just like the stove. I'll run the plate steel back into the chimney area too. Then, I will go with black pipe all the way up to the ceiling, penetrate through the ceiling with stainless insulated pipe from the ceiling junction box, and then penetrate through the roof right there. The chimney should penetrate the roof line right at the very top of the roof. I will just need to figure out how a penetration is done right at the crest of the roof. 2 stories of single wall black pipe should help to heat the upper level of the house too.

Honestly that sounds like a terrible solution. It would look like crap and it would detract from the home's value. Why is this being proposed if the house is already heated by a wood furnace? Also, a 2 story single-wall flue is strongly discouraged. Too much heat will be lost from the stove pipe. That can cause flue gases to cool down to the point that they start to condense on the inside of pipe causing creosote buildup. The stove is the heater, not the stove pipe.

What about removing the current gas fireplace from the outside and replacing it with a high quality EPA wood fireplace that heats well?

Now, only question is going to be whether I can use the chimney for a stove in the basement.

No, each stove needs its own dedicated flue.

 

[fabsroman]

Honestly that sounds like a terrible solution. It would look like crap and it would detract from the home's value. Why is this being proposed if the house is already heated by a wood furnace? Also, a 2 story single-wall flue is strongly discouraged. Too much heat will be lost from the stove pipe. That can cause flue gases to cool down to the point that they start to condense on the inside of pipe causing creosote buildup. The stove is the heater, not the stove pipe.

What about removing the current gas fireplace from the outside and replacing it with a high quality EPA wood fireplace that heats well?


No, each stove needs its own dedicated flue.

The wood burning furnace is in my current house. Do not think I can install one in the house we are thinking about buying because there is not enough room in the basement where the furnace is currently located and running a chimney for it would be a PITA.

Was not going to run two appliances through the same flue. The stove in the great room would be on a chimney that would be black and stainless and it would NOT go through the brick and mortar chimney. Now, if I could tap into the brick and mortar chimney from the basement and run a stainless steel liner up it. It would be even better if I could accomplish both without having to tear everything and its mother apart.

As far as the black pipe run to the ceiling is concerned in the great room, it will be fine. The pipe isn't exposed to extreme cold since it will be all within the living space. Once I hit the ceiling and put a support box at the ceiling, I would transition to Type A stainless steel pipe. Maybe I'll go with double walled black pipe inside the living space just to reduce heat loss and cooling of the black pipe, but I doubt it. The entire run will be vertical, which is the best way to get a good draft on the stove. I'll post some pics of stoves that are used in lodges so you can see what I am talking about.

As far as the steel plate for the stove to rest on, I think I can make it work and make it look pretty decent. Maybe use some ornamental plate for the supporting portion. I can also run a backstop/shield on the plate and use it to close up the hole that will be present when I remove the gas fireplace.

If I cannot access the brick/mortar chimney from the basement, I'll just run Type A right up the side of the house and along the brick chimney.

 

[begreen]

I've seen plenty of tall pipe installations. Several of those pictured appear to be with double-wall stove pipe. You'll note that all of those pictures are purpose built stove installations and not in front of an existing fireplace. If you can afford this house then why not do it right?

 

[fabsroman]

I've seen plenty of tall pipe installations. Several of those pictured appear to be with double-wall stove pipe. You'll note that all of those pictures are purpose built stove installations and not in front of an existing fireplace. If you can afford this house then why not do it right?

Alright, so what is the right thing to do?

As far as "if you can afford this house, then why not do it right", we can have a discussion on spending money just to spend money at some other time. The entire reason I posted this thread was to find out what the "right way" is to do this without tearing down the mantle. I am pretty sure there are plenty of "right ways" to do this. Which one is ultimately right for my wife and me depends on how it looks, cost, etc.

I am open to all suggestions on what is the right way to accomplish this. However, I'm not going with Type A pipe all the way from the stove to the ceiling, through the ceiling, and then through the roof. I'm also not going to tear down the entire 2 story mantle and rebuild it.

I read the specs and installation instructions on the stove I want, and it has an 8" flue. I am willing to bet that is not going to fit in the brick chimney, but who knows.

 

[begreen]

Hopefully the interior fireplace facade can stay in place and a new unit be installed from the outside, but without measurements it's hard to say. Contact a good wood fireplace shop that sells EPA fireplaces and have them take a look.

Are there any other locations in the house where a large woodstove could be placed so that the fireplace stays intact?

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Thinking about buying a new to us house, and putting in a wood burning furnace like I did here will most likely not be an option. However, there is a gas fire place in the great room with a brick and mortar chimney. I am including pics of the great room and the back of the house with the chimney. The chimney runs all the way from the basement floor up past the 2nd story roof line. Just wondering if there is any way I can modify the hearth so I can use a free standing wood stove instead of an insert.

Yes, I know I need to check the chimney, make sure it is sound, make sure it has a ceramic liner in it, etc. and then run a stainless steel liner up the chimney.

Looking to go with a free standing wood burning stove because I have access to "free" firewood and because I think I need all the heat I can possibly get to cut down the heating cost in this house.

Anybody have any before/after pics where this was done. I'm just trying to see if this is a viable option, and if so, how it it done.

Thanks

Put an insert in the fireplace. If you haven't found one you like, keep looking. There are some beauties available that can meet your (wife's) aesthetic needs.

If you really want a freestanding stove, find another place in the house.

You really don't want to cut into your ridge board.

I really wanted a freestander, but had two fireplaces, and was considering exactly what you are. Now that I heat the house with the insert, I can't imagine why I'd have tortured my situation by ignoring the obvious.

Don't ignore the most obvious solution.

 

[djkeev]

That is a huge beautiful house to be sure.
Energy efficient? Ain't gonna happen. Too much soaring unused space and glass.

To run a pipe two, three stories up in front of a fireplace to vent a wood stove placed in front of a gas fireplace is simply visual folly.
It will destroy resale value and desireability.

As mentioned, your absolute best option is to install a good insert and vent it out the existing masonry structure. With a liner as needed.

Why not remodel the basement to accept your wood furnace?
If a black pipe in front of your existing fireplace doesn't bother you than some sort of add on chimney shouldn't be a visual problem for you either.
Often corners of rooms can be boxed in to accomodate a chimney pipe with only minor loss of space and no visual distraction.

Personally, if I had the funds I'd so enable all three heat sources!
Keep your options open.
Wood burning fireplace insert for ambiance and spot warmth (maybe a pellet stove insert), keep your gas furnace for when you aren't home or are sick, and add a wood furnace next to it.


Dave

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

The wood burning furnace is in my current house. Do not think I can install one in the house we are thinking about buying because there is not enough room in the basement where the furnace is currently located and running a chimney for it would be a PITA.

Was not going to run two appliances through the same flue. The stove in the great room would be on a chimney that would be black and stainless and it would NOT go through the brick and mortar chimney. Now, if I could tap into the brick and mortar chimney from the basement and run a stainless steel liner up it. It would be even better if I could accomplish both without having to tear everything and its mother apart.

As far as the black pipe run to the ceiling is concerned in the great room, it will be fine. The pipe isn't exposed to extreme cold since it will be all within the living space. Once I hit the ceiling and put a support box at the ceiling, I would transition to Type A stainless steel pipe. Maybe I'll go with double walled black pipe inside the living space just to reduce heat loss and cooling of the black pipe, but I doubt it. The entire run will be vertical, which is the best way to get a good draft on the stove. I'll post some pics of stoves that are used in lodges so you can see what I am talking about.

As far as the steel plate for the stove to rest on, I think I can make it work and make it look pretty decent. Maybe use some ornamental plate for the supporting portion. I can also run a backstop/shield on the plate and use it to close up the hole that will be present when I remove the gas fireplace.

If I cannot access the brick/mortar chimney from the basement, I'll just run Type A right up the side of the house and along the brick chimney.

Please note that none of the pictures you found have the stove sitting in front of a fireplace. You haven't come up with some new, outside the box, solution. You just had an idea that turns out to be a bad one (we all have them), and somewhere along the way you've convinced yourself that it's a good one.

Now, for a little Philosophy 3000: Don't get too hung up on any one idea. Got that one from Gus McCrae (Lonesome Dove).

 

[Tar12]

I really like FTG-05s mod.! Have you considered getting into it this deep? Not cheap but very functional...you will need the largest stove you can possibly put there to try and off set heating costs...and wonder then if it will pay large enough dividends....what stove did you have in mind?

 

[DuaeGuttae]

There are people who have put free-standing stoves in masonry fireplaces. I can think of @Nick Mystic, @Woody Stover, or @weatherguy off the top of my head. I know you don’t own the house, but do you have dimensions of the fireplace? It’s hard for the installation wizards of the forum to give real advice without numbers.

My husband and I moved in September and have been discussing what to do about wood heat in our new home. Our fireplace is factory-built rather than masonry, so that was a set of additional complications. One thing that was clear to us, though, was that we weren’t going to detract from the aesthetics of the existing fireplace by trying to put a freestander in front of it. A freestander would go in an entirely different part of the house.

I personally wouldn’t get too far into the weeds until you’ve actually bought the house and lived in it unless the wood heating situation is make or break for you. Once you’re living there, you’ll have a better idea what your best options are.

It looks like a gorgeous home, by the way.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

There are people who have put free-standing stoves in masonry fireplaces. I can think of @Nick Mystic, @Woody Stover, or @weatherguy off the top of my head. I know you don’t own the house, but do you have dimensions of the fireplace? It’s hard for the installation wizards of the forum to give real advice without numbers.

My husband and I moved in September and have been discussing what to do about wood heat in our new home. Our fireplace is factory-built rather than masonry, so that was a set of additional complications. One thing that was clear to us, though, was that we weren’t going to detract from the aesthetics of the existing fireplace by trying to put a freestander in front of it. A freestander would go in an entirely different part of the house.

I personally wouldn’t get too far into the weeds until you’ve actually bought the house and lived in it unless the wood heating situation is make or break for you. Once you’re living there, you’ll have a better idea what your best options are.

It looks like a gorgeous home, by the way.

Sage advice, DG. Really like your post.

 

[Rearscreen]

That is a huge beautiful house to be sure.
Energy efficient? Ain't gonna happen. Too much soaring unused space and glass.

Sure it can be efficient. Just install radiant hydronic floor heating.

 

[xman23]

I agree with the consensus here. The focal point in the great room is that floor to ceiling brick fireplace. It's is a formal look, as is the rest of the house. If I understand your idea, you want to build a steel hearth in front of the brick wall and go straight up with an exposed chimney in front of the brick wall. Seams like rustic look, more suited for my timber frame cabin.

If it was my place an wanted some heat from what you have, I would go to an insert. Maybe not as much heat as a free standing, but it wouldn't change the look much. With this plan you get the same rolling fire and produce heat. Your not heating that house with one stove anyway. Plan B would be another location for the free standing stove. Then you would have the stoves heat and the convenience of the gas fireplace.

 

[fabsroman]

That is a huge beautiful house to be sure.
Energy efficient? Ain't gonna happen. Too much soaring unused space and glass.

To run a pipe two, three stories up in front of a fireplace to vent a wood stove placed in front of a gas fireplace is simply visual folly.
It will destroy resale value and desireability.

As mentioned, your absolute best option is to install a good insert and vent it out the existing masonry structure. With a liner as needed.

Why not remodel the basement to accept your wood furnace?
If a black pipe in front of your existing fireplace doesn't bother you than some sort of add on chimney shouldn't be a visual problem for you either.
Often corners of rooms can be boxed in to accomodate a chimney pipe with only minor loss of space and no visual distraction.

Personally, if I had the funds I'd so enable all three heat sources!
Keep your options open.
Wood burning fireplace insert for ambiance and spot warmth (maybe a pellet stove insert), keep your gas furnace for when you aren't home or are sick, and add a wood furnace next to it.


Dave

The biggest problem with running a wood furnace in that house is trying to figure out where the chimney would go. With our current house, that was pretty simple, but it did require us to box in the chimney in the corner of the living room. Not extremely happy with that box, but such is life. We've been using the furnace for 7 years now and saved about $3,000 a year in heating expense and this house is "only" 4,400 sf. Guessing the new house we are looking at is going to be $4,000+ a year to heat. While we could "afford" it, $4,000 a year means $40,000 contributed to a college fund in 10 years. We try to save as much of what we make as possible.

I would really prefer a standalone stove with an ashpan, but an insert isn't out of the question.Thing is, I think I can build out the base with brick and put a black plate under the stove and behind the stove such that the black plate will merely look like a heat shield. The installation instructions call for sheet metal underneath the stove anyway.. Regarding resale value, I can always take the stove and chimney out and patch up the ceiling and roof. Did it in this house where they had a rough in for a free standing wood stove. It isn't rocket science and would probably take me 1/2 to a full day of my time.

The gas furnace will remain. We have a natural gas furnace in our current house. Actually, the furnace we installed is a combo wood/natural gas furnace with two different thermostats.

 

[fabsroman]

There are people who have put free-standing stoves in masonry fireplaces. I can think of @Nick Mystic, @Woody Stover, or @weatherguy off the top of my head. I know you don’t own the house, but do you have dimensions of the fireplace? It’s hard for the installation wizards of the forum to give real advice without numbers.

My husband and I moved in September and have been discussing what to do about wood heat in our new home. Our fireplace is factory-built rather than masonry, so that was a set of additional complications. One thing that was clear to us, though, was that we weren’t going to detract from the aesthetics of the existing fireplace by trying to put a freestander in front of it. A freestander would go in an entirely different part of the house.

I personally wouldn’t get too far into the weeds until you’ve actually bought the house and lived in it unless the wood heating situation is make or break for you. Once you’re living there, you’ll have a better idea what your best options are.

It looks like a gorgeous home, by the way.

Thanks for the response. Wood heating isn't a make or break situation, but I tend to plan things out well in advance and I pinch pennies. The difference in cost between wood heat and propane gas would probably be around $80,000 over the 20+ years we live there.

The house has exactly what we have been looking for, for the past 8 months. It has enough acreage to allow me to shoot on the property and it has all the features we want except wood heating and a HUGE walk in closet in the master bedroom. We are going to look at it again on Thursday, but I have already started to work on obtaining financing on it. I am guessing we are going to put a contract on it on Thursday and I am just trying to think ahead regarding heating and the related expense. Trying to put plans together for a free standing garage too. Always planning.

I will try to get dimensions for the gas fireplace when we go to look at it again on Thursday. Somewhat hard to measure the depth of it though with it being inside the chimney. An insert might be the only option because I cannot think of any other room I would want to put a free standing stove in.

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the response. Wood heating isn't a make or break situation, but I tend to plan things out well in advance and I pinch pennies. The difference in cost between wood heat and propane gas would probably be around $80,000 over the 20+ years we live there.

For heating such a large house I'd be looking into propane alternatives like a high efficiency wood furnace or boiler system. It's hard to project future heating costs based on current pricing. Propane pricing in particular fluctuates a lot.

When we bought our house it had propane forced air heating. In spite of having a newer high efficiency furnace the installation was shoddy and had high heat loss. Initially it was tolerable if we supplemented with wood heat. Propane at the time was selling for about $.97/gallon. Over the course of 10 yrs. that rose to around $2/gal. At that point I pulled the propane furnace and replaced it with a high efficiency heatpump and centrally relocated a larger wood stove. That was a good move. Within a year propane was selling locally for over $3/gal. At peak it was $4.36/gal. Our annual heating bill would have spiked to over $3500 had we remained on propane heating. Instead we dropped down to a manageable $6-700/yr bill.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Thanks for the response. Wood heating isn't a make or break situation, but I tend to plan things out well in advance and I pinch pennies. The difference in cost between wood heat and propane gas would probably be around $80,000 over the 20+ years we live there.

The house has exactly what we have been looking for, for the past 8 months. It has enough acreage to allow me to shoot on the property and it has all the features we want except wood heating and a HUGE walk in closet in the master bedroom. We are going to look at it again on Thursday, but I have already started to work on obtaining financing on it. I am guessing we are going to put a contract on it on Thursday and I am just trying to think ahead regarding heating and the related expense. Trying to put plans together for a free standing garage too. Always planning.

I will try to get dimensions for the gas fireplace when we go to look at it again on Thursday. Somewhat hard to measure the depth of it though with it being inside the chimney. An insert might be the only option because I cannot think of any other room I would want to put a free standing stove in.

Sounds like maybe you'll need to add on another room! ;-)

$80k in savings sounds like a good deal. Plus, WOOD HEAT! Like having a little bit of sunshine in the house all winter.

 

[fabsroman]

For heating such a large house I'd be looking into propane alternatives like a high efficiency wood furnace or boiler system. It's hard to project future heating costs based on current pricing. Propane pricing in particular fluctuates a lot.

When we bought our house it had propane forced air heating. In spite of having a newer high efficiency furnace the installation was shoddy and had high heat loss. Initially it was tolerable if we supplemented with wood heat. Propane at the time was selling for about $.97/gallon. Over the course of 10 yrs. that rose to around $2/gal. At that point I pulled the propane furnace and replaced it with a high efficiency heatpump and centrally relocated a larger wood stove. That was a good move. Within a year propane was selling locally for over $3/gal. At peak it was $4.36/gal. Our annual heating bill would have spiked to over $3500 had we remained on propane heating. Instead we dropped down to a manageable $6-700/yr bill.

Yeah, the first month we were in this house, which was February 2011, we used $400 in heating oil. Actually, that was for the first 3 weeks we were here. The tank was empty and we had them put 100 gallons in it before we moved in (i.e., it was a foreclosure). That was gone in 3 weeks with the thermostat set at 68 and my wife always being cold. I had been looking at wood furnaces before we ended up buying this house. My wife was on the fence about it until that $400 in heating oil was gone in three weeks. That summer, we installed the wood burning furnace. At first, she did not even know how to light a fire. Now, she is a pro. She just goes to the basement and lights the furnace whenever she feels like it right now.

She actually just came in and saw me posting on this board and asked me if I had gotten any good advice. Told her that some people think a black pipe going up to the ceiling right in front of the brick mantle/wall would look terrible. Her response, "I'm fine with it, especially if we are going to save a ton of money." We have not paid for heat in this house since we installed the furnace. Well, we pay for it a little when we go on vacation during the winter, but the natural gas thermostat is set at 50 degrees and I always pile up the wood in the furnace when we leave. The natural gas will light the furnace. Then, my parents come over once or twice during the week and my dad piles in the wood some more. Sometimes, we go away for vacation during the winter and the house temp never drops to 50 degrees because the wood in the furnace is untouched when we get home.

The house we are looking at has two zone heating/cooling, so the smaller furnace can deal with the upstairs. Granted, heat rises and I am hoping that heat would rise from the great room to the 2nd floor. Another stove in the basement should take care of the basement for the most part.

 

[djkeev]

Not judging but that is a LOT of house, two furnaces, probably two A/C units, financing, big house uokeep, higher taxes?

For one squeezing pennies, this house is going to cost some significant monthly coin even with free wood heat..... but only part of the house will be wood heat?

I guess I think radically differently, my dream house is a small modest house on acreage. Currently I am too small at only 676 sf but I'll be adding on.
The upside of this small house is that it is easy and cheap to heat, easy to cool, minimal taxes.

One has different needs for sure, but in this scary economy I would keep my monthly obligations to an absolute minimum.

 

[fabsroman]

Not judging but that is a LOT of house, two furnaces, probably two A/C units, financing, big house uokeep, higher taxes?

For one squeezing pennies, this house is going to cost some significant monthly coin even with free wood heat..... but only part of the house will be wood heat?

I guess I think radically differently, my dream house is a small modest house on acreage. Currently I am too small at only 676 sf but I'll be adding on.
The upside of this small house is that it is easy and cheap to heat, easy to cool, minimal taxes.

One has different needs for sure, but in this scary economy I would keep my monthly obligations to an absolute minimum.

The property taxes are actually the same as the house we live in right now. Actually, $200 more a year. We pay $5,600 in property tax on our current house and this house is $5,800. We are moving to a different county within the state. Difference in income tax is .2% at the county level. We currently pay 3.2% in county income tax and the move to this county results in a .2% savings. That translates into a $400 savings on income tax on $200k in income. I am an attorney/CPA with a home office. The office in this house would be right next to the great room, and if necessary, in the sunroom. I get to depreciate a portion of the house and write off a portion of the property taxes, utilities, etc. against my Schedule C income and it reduces my self employment tax of 15.3%. My wife and I put close to $50k away every year between the college funds and the retirement funds. We have $550k saved for retirement and $160k saved for the kids' college. Our four kids range in age from 10 years to 3 months. We are done having kids and have decided that our 3 bedroom, 2 bath house just is not cutting it and we want to move to a more rural area with the same level of schools. The new construction in the county we currently live in is insane. Thought I could live here for 20+ years, but after 7 years I am going insane with the amount of traffic, the amount of people, and the politics. Not only that, but I found out that the county passed an ordinance just prior to us moving here that outlaws using a pellet gun anywhere in the county unless one is hunting with it. My kids and I cannot shoot a pellet gun in our 2 acre backyard. So, we have decided to move to a bigger house with more land, no HOA, and no local ordinances against the discharge of a firearm, much less a pellet gun. The new monthly mortgage payment will be less than my wife's bi-weekly pay check. So, it will be less than 50% of her take home. Then, there is what I make for a living. While not set in stone like my wife's salary, it isn't peanuts. We are putting down about 35% of the purchase price of the house.

Other than a mortgage, we have zero debt. No car loans, no school debt, no credit card debt, etc. Just the mortgage.

If it wasn't for the school systems in this area and my parents and siblings living in Maryland, I would not be here. The retirement plan is to move to a farm. We will most likely buy a farm in the next 5 to 10 years. Exit plan is to move wherever the majority of the kids end up at, once they are settled in. However, that move will be to a farm with a smaller house. Right now, with 4 kids, a smaller house isn't the answer. Sure, we could make this 3 bedroom, 2 bath, 4,400 sf house work, but it would take about $100k and a year of my life to make it into a 4 bedroom, 3.5 bath house. Not worth it when this other house we are looking at is $175k, maybe $150k, more expensive than our current house.

FYI - we all judge. It is human nature.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

The property taxes are actually the same as the house we live in right now. Actually, $200 more a year. We pay $5,600 in property tax on our current house and this house is $5,800. We are moving to a different county within the state. Difference in income tax is .2% at the county level. We currently pay 3.2% in county income tax and the move to this county results in a .2% savings. That translates into a $400 savings on income tax on $200k in income. I am an attorney/CPA with a home office. The office in this house would be right next to the great room, and if necessary, in the sunroom. I get to depreciate a portion of the house and write off a portion of the property taxes, utilities, etc. against my Schedule C income and it reduces my self employment tax of 15.3%. My wife and I put close to $50k away every year between the college funds and the retirement funds. We have $550k saved for retirement and $160k saved for the kids' college. Our four kids range in age from 10 years to 3 months. We are done having kids and have decided that our 3 bedroom, 2 bath house just is not cutting it and we want to move to a more rural area with the same level of schools. The new construction in the county we currently live in is insane. Thought I could live here for 20+ years, but after 7 years I am going insane with the amount of traffic, the amount of people, and the politics. Not only that, but I found out that the county passed an ordinance just prior to us moving here that outlaws using a pellet gun anywhere in the county unless one is hunting with it. My kids and I cannot shoot a pellet gun in our 2 acre backyard. So, we have decided to move to a bigger house with more land, no HOA, and no local ordinances against the discharge of a firearm, much less a pellet gun. The new monthly mortgage payment will be less than my wife's bi-weekly pay check. So, it will be less than 50% of her take home. Then, there is what I make for a living. While not set in stone like my wife's salary, it isn't peanuts. We are putting down about 35% of the purchase price of the house.

Other than a mortgage, we have zero debt. No car loans, no school debt, no credit card debt, etc. Just the mortgage.

If it wasn't for the school systems in this area and my parents and siblings living in Maryland, I would not be here. The retirement plan is to move to a farm. We will most likely buy a farm in the next 5 to 10 years. Exit plan is to move wherever the majority of the kids end up at, once they are settled in. However, that move will be to a farm with a smaller house. Right now, with 4 kids, a smaller house isn't the answer. Sure, we could make this 3 bedroom, 2 bath, 4,400 sf house work, but it would take about $100k and a year of my life to make it into a 4 bedroom, 3.5 bath house. Not worth it when this other house we are looking at is $175k, maybe $150k, more expensive than our current house.

FYI - we all judge. It is human nature.

I understand how you feel, completely.

I love that this forum just saved you between $20 and $50 thousand on therapy. ;-)

Dr. ED 3000 only charges $2.50 an hour. My bill is in the mail. $5.