Advice To Flatten Warped Baffle In Order To Remove From Firebox

[ctreitzell]

Rather than add to some of the other model specific baffle questions
I decided to start my own thread. Sadly, I'm going to have to run my Panadero
with current install for another season. The baffle is severely drooping but still seems
uncracked. It is plate steel, not cast.

I have purchased a new baffle from Panadero.
I have tried before to remove the warped baffle, but it fits tightly and is sitting on welded tabs
like a shelf in a cupboard and there is miniscule clearance: has to be angled to clear the tabs.
With this warp, I haven't been able to remove it.

I'm looking for advice on flattening this piece of steel while still in the stove.
I'm a wood worker, not a metal worker.

I'm planning to remove the stove entirely; take it outside and turn it upside down
and blow the whole thing out with compressed air.

Then maybe take a torch to heat the baffle and tap out enough of the bend to get the baffle out.
I'd like to avoid cutting it into pieces with an angle grinder.

I realize any pounding or pressure could fracture other parts and/or break welds.

Anyone have any advice on a less invasive repair attempt?
I reckon the safest way is to cut the warped baffle out...
but maybe there are other solutions I haven't thought of?

any advice greatly appreciated
here's a photo
View attachment 331304

 

[Todd]

One thing that comes to mind is using a small hydraulic jack in the firebox to push the baffle back up but I don’t know if the firebox is strong enough to take the pressure? It may do more damage than not?

 

[Highbeam]

If you have the torch and the stove is outside, cut it up with the torch. If it's not a cutting torch then you need to cut it up with the angle grinder.

 

[ctreitzell]

One thing that comes to mind is using a small hydraulic jack in the firebox to push the baffle back up but I don’t know if the firebox is strong enough to take the pressure? It may do more damage than not?

Thanks for this...using a small jack certainly came to mind
the baffle in the Panadero is something like 45 degree angle from level

and my main concern was exactly as you warn; to not damage the fixed parts of the firebox

that said, I can make a piece of wood to put the jack base at a similar angle to the baffle and spread the load...and I might be able to take some of th droop out

 

[ctreitzell]

If you have the torch and the stove is outside, cut it up with the torch. If it's not a cutting torch then you need to cut it up with the angle grinder.

Thanks!

I don't have a torch and certainly not a cutting torch
I have an angle grinder
I could buy like a plumbers torch...yet I don't think that will get hot enough
but maybe some heat is better than none?

I'm just not really a metal worker type...my neighboor is...yet I think he will get in a hurry and be too rough and next thing I have broken welds

 

[stoveliker]

The jack would likely break the baffle too imo; the baffle has likely recrystallized from being exposed to heat for long times. The larger grains will make the plate brittle.

If you go the jack route, be sure that whatever you're pushing off against is stronger than the baffle...

 

[ctreitzell]

The jack would likely break the baffle too imo; the baffle has likely recrystallized from being exposed to heat for long times. The larger grains will make the plate brittle.

If you go the jack route, be sure that whatever you're pushing off against is stronger than the baffle...

Yes, needs to be approached gently

This baffle has only seen 2 burn seasons and is plate steel; it is not cast

I’m certainly more concerned about damaging the stove than the baffle

and if the baffle breaks easily, that would be a good thing for my purposes

Thanks for the advice, it’s greatly appreciated

I do have a suitable canister Jack which fits very well… in the stove

 

[EbS-P]

Second the Angle grinder

 

[Highbeam]

Unless the sag is very slight, I would not bother trying to jack it flat. Doing so, if even possible, will make it even bigger and push tighter into the slots so you are even less able to slide it out.

AN angle grinder with a thin cutting disc, hearing and eye protection, it will be out in no time. It's low skill work. Just keep your hair and clothing out of it!

Unless you have an actual oxygen/acetylene cutting torch then heating it will do nothing for you.

 

[VirginiaIron]

I think the solution is more invasive than you want. I would find out if your neighbor has a plasma cutter/torch. He could cut around the flange supports to drop the plate very easily.

 

[ctreitzell]

ok, thanks for all these

I'll give it a go just trying to remove the baffle as is

I mean. it's close to falling off the tabs as it is at the moment...so cutting at the tabs might bring it right down

the firebox walls have deformed a bit and are bowed in just a bit...so that might hinder me most...gonna be cutting the plate into four pieces or more possibly

I'm certainly not crazy about using an angle grinder over my head...so removing the stove may well be in order

I mean, I installed the thing, so I know what I'm getting myself into

 

[VirginiaIron]

I like your idea of turning it upside down. Those cut discs can shatter if damaged/defective and I would rather let the plate drop/disc bind away from me than towards me. Good luck.

 

[ctreitzell]

I like your idea of turning it upside down. Those cut discs can shatter if damaged/defective and I would rather let the plate drop/disc bind away from me than towards me. Good luck.

it might also make it easier to dislodge and possibly remove without breaking, thanks for the support

 

[ctreitzell]

For pete's sake, it's been a cold October and a colder November than usual this year. House temps below 60F and we've had socked-in, pea soup fog for about 10 days straight.

Well, the missus and I started working on this yesterday and flattening the baffle wouldn't be of any help anyhow. Before trying anything else, we just tried to remove the sagged baffle as is...there's no way it is coming out without cutting something.

The problem is the lack of forward thinking of the design of this Panadero after putting the appliance in service. The firebox side walls deformed when we started its very first fire two years ago. We remember watching the metal walls bow inward during the fire-starting process. I didn't do top-down back then and used to lean the starting fuel on one wall to start fires, so obviously the firebox deformation is "my fault". My missus is adamant we followed the letter of the starting procedure Panadero supplies with the appliance as we were weighing the fuel before reloading...whatever...EcoDesign 2022 has us over here in Europe following some silly, ineffective procedures forcing us wood burners to use fireboxes that are too small and underpowered for the purpose for which they are sold. I wish I could purchase and install a big Drolet or something like that. The largest legally available to us is a Jotul F400 afaiaa.

Now that I've cleaned the affected areas and sanded down the high spots enough to make a smooth surface to pass the baffle by, I can measure a bowing inward of around a quarter inch or more on both sides. Installing the new baffle without cutting it down would be impossible, and flattening it would be of no help.

I'm using a Fein Multi-Talent with diamond blade to cut down the edges enough to get this deformed baffle out. It is slow going, but it will work. Whether or not I can get it out the door is another hurdle.

Sure I could put an angle grinder on it and have it out a lot faster, but I'm pretty sure my method will work.

My idea of turning the stove upside down would be counter-productive because that baffle is rather heavy and would be impossible to get a grip on if the stove was upside down. Having gravity help bring it down is seeming to be a better solution and certainly less disruption.

 

[ctreitzell]

Ha! Well, I re-discovered that this baffle has big fins welded to the back of it! I remember when I installed the stove, the baffle created a lot of weight and was removable...as I removed it to help us get the stove in place...but I don't remove and reinstall that baffle every day, so I forgot how it is laid out

I ordered a new baffle from Panandero and they only sold me just the flat baffle plate and not the fins and that baffle plate is all that got delivered

I've almost got the baffle to come out now, with for too much elbow grease...really the thing needs to flat to come out...it's a terrible design IMO...the smaller fin broke off it's welds...I gotta find somebody to weld it back together

 

[VirginiaIron]

So sorry. Would it be better measure carefully the plate and the distance between the warped walls to make sure it will fit properly before doing all that extra labor.

 

[EbS-P]

How tall is the chimney and do you have a damper ?

 

[ctreitzell]

So sorry. Would it be better measure carefully the plate and the distance between the warped walls to make sure it will fit properly before doing all that extra labor.

No need to be sorry, my friend, I’m just logging my work here.

Indeed, I will cut down the new baffle plate and fins to have plenty of clearance for easy install and removal next time. I live in French farmland…everyone here has the tools and capability to weld (except me).

The main issue will remain, tho…the poor design decisions of companies like Panadero to use 4mm plate steel for firebox and baffle material with insufficient support mean consumers can expect deformed steel with any temperature fire. IMO, regulations should govern these designs of such potentially dangerous appliances.

Consider this baffle I am replacing…the large fin is 120mm/ 5" and the small fin is 75mm/ 3" and they're welded directly to the back of the baffle at around a 45 degree angle with no cross support...it is a recipe for failure...that extra weight of the fins encourages sagging of the baffle. If anyone tells me "don't mess with the aero of those fins, well, what about the sagging baffle?!?! Surely that affects the aero of the draft of the chimney!

At the time I bought this wood burner in 2022, the shelves in the supply houses were empty due to a mad panic to switch to wood heating. This particular stove just so happened to have the vent in a very similar position to the existing flue (I won't get into that here)...so we didn't purchase the highest quality. The "salesperson" at the store told us this Panadero was plenty of stove for our needs and that plate steel is just the same as cast...he was wrong...nevertheless, wood fire has greatly improved our heating efficiency and slashed electrical costs down by 75%. I'd really prefer a better stove, but finances have not allowed that in 2024.

 

[ctreitzell]

Here are some photos

 

[ctreitzell]

How tall is the chimney and do you have a damper ?

Chimney is just under 7 meters/ 22-23 feet
I do not have a damper
my chimney is a problem for sure...I have a 1 meter horizontal run out the back of the stove....I have to pre-heat the flue pipe before starting a fire and have not yet been able to to move to class A vent pipe...nor purchase a damper as I had discussed previously

last year I said 2023-2024 would be the last year for this old chimney install...but things happened last year that didn't allow us to begin works on our barn conversion...mainly local restrictions that local gov't had put on our project without our knowledge.

Here's my post from late 2023 that shows what I'm talking about

 

[ctreitzell]

Well, I as able to cut enough clearance to get the deformed baffle out with only another hours’ massaging.

And then I spent a few hours grinding the new baffle down so that I shouldn’t run into this problem again…took a long time!

Now to find out later today if my buddy can weld the fins on

 

[ctreitzell]

Well! Heck yes, my friend came by, had a look and took me down to his farm and welded the fins on =-D

And a new grate…quite a lot removed from the baffle to get it in…tomorrow I might replace the door seal…maybe not, I’ll see