Advice on Correcting Installation (insulated liner)

[mellow]

Wow, they actually put that in the manual, Regency just dropped a notch in my book.

You never EVER let it burn wide open for that long, cat stoves are simple, get to operating temperature and turn it down so it will burn slow and low and the cat will clean up the smoke.

Also they should have installed a catalytic probe so you can monitor the cats temperature, that is what I use to run mine,I use exhaust temp is just so I can see from across the room on my digital display that I need to close the damper on mine at around 400 with a max of 550 the alarm goes off.

This whole install and training they did on this stove is piss poor, the demise of this insert could have been prevented with good training.

 

[Simon Templar]

This whole install and training they did on this stove is piss poor, the demise of this insert could have been prevented with good training.

I wish I had a video of the install then; we could all get a chuckle about what they told me about it not being able to be overfired, so I don't have to worry about overfiring

 

[mellow]

And then they come back and install a Restrictor plate to help curb the overfiring, not sure I would be laughing at that time.

 

[jatoxico]

Simon it's a shame you have to go through this but it seems to be all too common in this industry. Very few pro installers (in my experience) take their trade very seriously or are willing to learn and improve. Wham bam thank you mam seems to be the common approach. I'm thankful for the few pros we have here that lend their expertise/experience and keep up with education etc. I only wish one was closer when I did my initial install. Rant over.

I did not see if you settled on a fix since starting the thread given that the situation has become somewhat more complicated. If it were me I'd go for the pre-insulated liner. While adding a block off plate may stop infiltration of the mix it will not stop further settling of the product. Given that the installer is not getting good grades here I'm inclined to go with a product that you know will work and should not cause issues down the line.

In addition I would still add a metal block off plate and insist on Roxul. Have the materials on-site, and if you can, cut to the right dimensions beforehand. You most likely would want to have the liner in place before cutting the final hole through the plate itself. Now's the time to get it right so you may also want to think about insulating the firebox. When I re-did my install it took two trips by the installer. One to remove the insert then a few days later they came back to re-install after I put in the block off and insulated the firebox and smoke shelf. Good luck getting this sorted out.

 

[Woody Stover]

Wow, they actually put that in the manual...you never EVER let it burn wide open for that long

Not sure if it's in their manuals but BKVP has recommended doing the same thing for their stoves but it was once a week IIRC. From what I could gather, it was to get rid of any wet creo in the box to avoid rusting/erosion of the steel. When I had the bricks out of the Buck, I saw a little erosion on the bottom plate, where the bottom meets the back behind the bricks. Not sure how long it would take before that would compromise the integrity of the stove, but 1/4" is pretty thick....

and in my owner's manual, Regency makes the following statement: Burn insert with draft control wide open for about 45 minutes every morning during burning season. This helps to prevent creosote deposits within the heating system.

Did they say weather that's with the bypass open or closed? I think it was with the bypass closed in the BKs. Their thermostat might keep it from getting as hot, though. If the bypass was open, that could explain the distortion and crack around your bypass opening...that's a lot of heat to be funneling through that area.

 

[Woody Stover]

Baffle looks like it may be replaceable?

 

[Simon Templar]

Okay, thanks again everyone for the helpful information. I’m almost ready to have the follow-up conversation with the installer about the install.

To summarize, given the two choices I mentioned in the first post, I want to go with the insulated liner.

However, I want to ask that fiberglass insulation not be used, but I want roxul instead. Hopefully this won’t be a big deal, especially if I buy it and have it ready for them to use. It looks like roxul has several products, not all of which are thermal insulating. Do I want comfortbatt for wood studs (r-15,23, or 30) for stuffing at the top and bottom of the chimney? Is fiberglass not actually up to code? Can someone point me to the documentation? I searched for UL1777 and see lots of references and discussions, but not the actual documentation itself. Even if I buy it myself and they use it instead of fiberglass, by deviating from their preferred install I worry that they might give me a hard time if I continue to have issues down the road.

As for insulating around the insert, this is something that I discussed before and during the install, and that discussion got escalated to the owner of the shop. He told me that it’s forbidden by the manufacturer and they absolutely won’t do it. If it’s not really forbidden (and I’d need Regency’s guidance here, but I haven’t been in touch with them yet), would I want a roxul comfort board fs? It looks like that’s for “fire stopping” but it doesn’t mention thermal insulation value.

I definitely want a block off plate too, but I feel defeated on this one since I brought it up with them several times, each time ending with I don’t need one, they don’t install them, they’re the experts… Jatoxico your idea is a good one - maybe a compromise would be that they install the insulated liner, put the insulation in top and bottom, then pause while I have another contractor install a block off plate, then they come back to finish up. It’s worth asking, because my sense of defeat is probably just related to my disdain of confrontation, and focusing again on the end-state I think perhaps I need to dig my heels in on this one.

Then, of course, I have to deal with the condition of my stove. But gosh, I miss the heat of the fire already and my oil furnace seems like it has worked more in the last day than it has all winter :-(

 

[begreen]

Typically a liner is insulated with a proper kaowool blanket, not Roxul. Roxul is only used to stuff around the liner at the top of the chimney where it's coldest and above the damper block-off plate if one is installed.

Contact Regency about insulating the inside of the fireplace. It may be fine, but it's a good idea to get approval, preferably in writing, from the manufacturer first. I like the idea of using an insulation board like micore, or even a couple layers of Durock rather than a loose batt insulation like Roxul for this purpose.

 

[Simon Templar]

Typically a liner is insulated with a proper kaowool blanket, not Roxul. Roxul is only used to stuff around the liner at the top of the chimney where it's coldest and above the damper block-off plate if one is installed.

Yes, thank you for pointing out that I was ambiguous at best. I did mean for the insulation at the top of the chimney and at the bottom too, not in-between as the liner itself will be insulated.

 

[jatoxico]

We are (I'd like to think ) almost out of the heating season so there's no reason to rush the fix/re-install at this point. You have an exterior chimney and stand to gain the most from the upgrades your considering. Take some time to read the block-off plate instructions here and Mellow had one of the better threads on insulating the fire-box. Naturally you can't do anything expressly forbidden by the manufacturer and getting their blessing is a good idea but IMO as long as the insert has some room to breath it's a non-issue in my mind.

Even for someone not terribly handy the block off plate is fairly easy and doesn't have to be pretty. If the plate is roughly fitted I doubt they will give you a hard time. The concern for these guys is time. They want to be in and out and generally do not care about function. In fact most probably think what they do is fine since they don't know the difference and don't ever know how the install is holding up and performing over the long haul.

Schedule them to be on site two times. One for removal and possibly rough install of the liner. Then one a week or two later for final fitting. In between do the work they are unwilling and don't know how to do. I have a similar install (exterior chimney with insert) and insulating the smoke shelf and firebox along with the block off plate made a noticeable difference.

 

[bholler]

I disagree with jatoxico you need to get this fixed asap the longer it goes the harder it will be for you to get it taken care of. And you will be hard pressed to get a pro to come out 2 separate days and if you did you will pay allot more. There are allot of very good pros out there who are very happy to do a block off plate it is standard for many. We also insulate the firebox when there is room to allow space around the insert as do many others i know. The problem is that people need to be educated and insist on a top notch install if everyone started to do that it would change things and most installers would be doing it. The problem is every one wants things done as cheaply as possible and block off plates and extra insulation take time and money. I know we loose quite a few jobs to guys that just drop an uninsulated liner with no plate or anything because our price is much higher. But you are get what you pay for.

 

[jatoxico]

I disagree with jatoxico you need to get this fixed asap the longer it goes the harder it will be for you to get it taken care of. And you will be hard pressed to get a pro to come out 2 separate days and if you did you will pay allot more. There are allot of very good pros out there who are very happy to do a block off plate it is standard for many. We also insulate the firebox when there is room to allow space around the insert as do many others i know. The problem is that people need to be educated and insist on a top notch install if everyone started to do that it would change things and most installers would be doing it. The problem is every one wants things done as cheaply as possible and block off plates and extra insulation take time and money. I know we loose quite a few jobs to guys that just drop an uninsulated liner with no plate or anything because our price is much higher. But you are get what you pay for.

He should not be paying for anything as the dealer has already agreed to fix the problem. So he's is not in a position to hire another installer at this point (unless the dealer's willing to agree to that) so regardless of whether some other installer might be willing to do what he wants it's a moot point. I was able to schedule them to come out twice in a similar situation. As long as they knew what they had to do that day they can schedule their time OK.

 

[bholler]

He should not be paying for anything at this point and the dealer has agreed to fix the problem. So he's is not in a position to hire another installer at this point (unless the dealer's willing to agree to that) so regardless of whether some other installer might be willing to do what he wants it's a moot point. I was able to schedule them to come out twice in a similar situation. As long as they knew what they had to do that day they can schedule their time OK.

I totally agree that he should not pay for anything but the dealer has not really agreed to resolve all of the issues yet to resolve them the liner needs pulled then all of the insulation removed and the chimney cleaned properly. Then install the liner again with new insulation either wrap or pour in but done. I honestly doubt that they will do it but i may be surprised. My statements were not really concerning this situation now it was aimed at other people looking at getting a new install i am sorry i probably should not have posted it on this thread. How much more did they charge to come out twice? I know it would increase my bill by at minimum $100 but probably more

 

[Oldman47]

Okay, thanks again everyone for the helpful information. I’m almost ready to have the follow-up conversation with the installer about the install.

To summarize, given the two choices I mentioned in the first post, I want to go with the insulated liner.

As for insulating around the insert, this is something that I discussed before and during the install, and that discussion got escalated to the owner of the shop. He told me that it’s forbidden by the manufacturer and they absolutely won’t do it. If it’s not really forbidden (and I’d need Regency’s guidance here, but I haven’t been in touch with them yet), would I want a roxul comfort board fs? It looks like that’s for “fire stopping” but it doesn’t mention thermal insulation value.

(

Roxul is a better insulator than fiberglass. I used it in my walls and for a 2x6 wall it is rated at R-23 while a 2x6 fill with fiberglass is rated at only R-19. It is made from rock so it is rated to sustain a temperature of over 2000ºF. Glass melts at a lower temperature than that. Depending on the type of glass it starts to flow easily at only about 1300ºF. I have no idea what kind of glass they use in that pink insulation but I know it can't take over 2000ºF without damage. This video shows the fire performance of various insulation materials exposed to fire. It starts out with exposing fiberglass to a flame and you can see what happens as it melts away from the flame of a torch. At around 13:20 it shows what happens with mineral wool, what we have been calling Roxul on here, it is a brand name for mineral wool.

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[jatoxico]

I totally agree that he should not pay for anything but the dealer has not really agreed to resolve all of the issues yet to resolve them the liner needs pulled then all of the insulation removed and the chimney cleaned properly. Then install the liner again with new insulation either wrap or pour in but done. I honestly doubt that they will do it but i may be surprised. My statements were not really concerning this situation now it was aimed at other people looking at getting a new install i am sorry i probably should not have posted it on this thread. How much more did they charge to come out twice? I know it would increase my bill by at minimum $100 but probably more

Mine was for a fix too so no charge. The dealer wanted to do the right thing but I've concluded he simply was not as knowledgeable as say, the people here. Basically I had to direct the workers (which is a delicate balancing act) and did the extra work they said I did not need and was in any case, not part of the original contract so it would have been unfair for me to expect them to do it (for free anyway).

From the original post it sounds like the OP is in a similar situation in that the dealer recognizes there is a legitimate problem and has given Simon a couple options to resolve it. I would not expect the dealer to now pony up for block offs etc. but with any luck they can schedule two 1/2 days especially if he gives (as I did) a fairly open window schedule wise and still get the extras accomplished. Or maybe there's another way. I only offer this up as one way to get from A to B that worked in my case and I think the OP would come to regret wasting this opportunity to get it all right now, while he has the chance.

When I first posted on this thread I was actually thinking about what you said in you're last post about a quality install costing more and losing business to lesser quality installers as a result, must be frustrating. In my case after searching high and low I simply could not find anyone willing to do the kind of work you are willing and able to do even though I was willing to pay more. All the guys I asked would not install an insulated liner and said they had either never heard of block off plates, or that they were not necessary and even they would cause problems. Took all I had just to find a dealer willing to use Roxul and insulate below ("only need to insulate by the cap") which after the unit was pulled for the aforementioned fix, turned out to be done so poorly as to be completely useless. In my case I ended up having to do it myself.

 

[bholler]

I was actually thinking about what you said in you're last post about a quality install costing more and losing business to lesser quality installers as a result, must be frustrating

It isnt really we have enough work and i get that some people just cant afford to pay what we charge but as long as the lesser installers do it safely i don't have a problem with it. It is when i see liners dropped into dirty chimneys or uninsulated. where there are obvious clearance issues or other safety issues that i get upset. But we will never compromise our quality to compete with others we do what we see as necessary to make the best and safest install possible.

 

[Simon Templar]

It's been a while since I posted to this thread so I wanted to give an update. Nothing is fixed yet but I've had a few good conversations with the folks from where I bought the insert and I've also been in touch with Regency, and I'm confident that it'll all be worked out in time. I discussed the details of what I'd like the re-install to be (insulated liner rather than thermix, roxul rather than fiberglass, and block off plate) and while I don't know that we agreed as to what was necessary I believe they're still eager to fix the issues I've been having so they're willing to accommodate my requests. The only real delta between what the original install was to be and what I'll get the second time around is the block off plate (by that I mean I already paid for insulated liner and insulation at top and bottom of flue) and I said I'd be willing to pay for that but I don't think cost is what either of us are focusing on so we didn't dwell on that point. I'm working through the dealer to have my stove issues addressed and whether it's repaired or replaced we'll have that done along with the re-install.

So I'm confident that it'll all work out in the end, and years from now as I still enjoy the heat from the Regency I'm thinking the details of the install will fade until they're mostly forgotten. It might be another month or so (blind guess) before I check in again but when it's all done I'll share the details.

 

[bholler]

Good to hear i think that if they are willing to do everything else you paying for the block off plate is fair

 

[Simon Templar]

Several months ago, maybe in May or so, I did indeed have a new fireplace insert installed along with a new liner and new insulation. After my conversation with the store owner where we agreed what the installation would entail (block off plate, roxul, etc) it took a few weeks while he dealt with regency about the insert itself and for a new insert to be delivered. Regency had made some significant changes to the stove last spring to address issues that many customers were having, and I got one of the second generations of the hi400 when it came out. The installers who arrived with the stove apparently didn't get the message about using roxul instead of fiberglass, or installing a block off plate, but after a phone call or two that was rectified and I was left with a new insert, new oval insulated liner, roxul, and a block off plate. Given that the temps were warming up I only lit a couple of break-in small fires (which, by the way, are much less unpleasant in the spring time with all of the windows open) and the insert has been sitting idle since then. Kudos to my dealer for staying engaged and taking care of their customer, and kudos also to Regency for standing by their product and making it right (there's a long thread on the ci2600/hi400, and I'm not the only one with issues who got a replacement insert).

Last week we've had some chilly temps and I began using the insert for heat for the first time. I started slow with low temps and on the second day I worked up to normal use and two things were immediately apparent: (1) the intake air adjustment actually works - with it "open" it will allow active orange flames, and with it "closed" it will snuff out the flames causing the hot wood to sort of bake, and (2) the glass gets MUCH dirtier than it ever did before - it almost immediately turns gray then black and I can't see in the stove at all.

When I mostly filled the stove with decent sized logs stacked north/south and the fan on auto, it blew heat for over 15 hours before the fan turned off and there were still plenty of coals to light the next load. I'm looking forward to getting comfortable with this setup and learning how much wood to add and how to damp it properly so I can get into a rhythm of loading it early in the morning before breakfast then again around supper time.

I would certainly rather have had no issues with the stove or the installation, but life happens. On the bright side, it's now about 10 months since I originally bought the insert, and I have that new-insert excitement all over again. Bring it on, Jack Frost!