Advice on Correcting Installation (insulated liner)

[bholler]

From the photo's it looks like the appliance connector is at an angle, but looks like it has sealed the collar with no large gaps visible, still trying to wrap my head around how insulation got in?

who knows could be a bad splice in the liner they could have put a hole in it installing it (it is just light wall) or they could have just dumped some in the top of the liner when they were dumping it in around the liner

 

[mellow]

Man, I hope Regency steps up to the plate and lays out the dealer that allowed this install to happen.

 

[bholler]

Man, I hope Regency steps up to the plate and lays out the dealer that allowed this install to happen.

Yes and csia as well like i said it is this type of stuff that gives the rest of us pros a bad name

 

[Simon Templar]

I can try; bear with me I'm just a layman.

For the most part I've kept the stove going around the clock with the only exceptions being a few days over the holidays when we travelled, and when I let the stove burn out and cool down for the installers to come out (a few times for the insulation, but also to remove the side knockout plates and the install the restrictor plate).

Given that, in the morning I usually wake up with ash and hot coals in the firebox so I open the damper and bypass, add a few medium logs and let them catch and burn. I go about our morning routine letting them burn with the damper and bypass open (I think the manual says to do something like that to clean things out a bit). I then load up the firebox, let the load catch and wait for the thermometer to read over 500, then damp it down and push in the bypass for a slow burn during the day. Mid-to late afternoon I open the bypass and damper, I add wood and let it catch, then when temp is over 500 I close the bypass and either damp it half way or not much at all. I do that to let the wood burn down before I load it up for the overnight burn, and also to get the heat out of the wood quicker while the family is home and awake. Burning this way with the box 1/2 to 2/3 full I'll get about a 5 or 6 hour burn time. Late evening I load up the firebox, let it catch and get over 500 degrees, then damp it down and push in the bypass for the overnight burn. For what it's worth, with the restrictor plate in I've been getting really good burn times so I'm almost happy with the stove.

For the most part I turn the fan on manually until it's hot enough to use the auto on/off setting of the fan switch, but after one of the visits from the installers that thermal switch wasn't plugged in so I kept the fan on all the time with the manual setting. During that visit though, he explained that the thermometer measures the exhaust temp so I can't use it to gauge when the fan will kick on. He said I should be able to leave it on auto and it'll turn on by itself. As I mentioned in a post above I burned a load of wood and it didn't turn on, so I resorted to manually keeping the fan on until he returned to fix the fan.

I don't know where the insulation got in, but I'd assume it was sucked in with the air that gets to the fire? I know some air comes into the firebox in the front, but doesn't some also circulate around and get heated before going into the firebox? When I turn the fan on it blows insulation out from the top front of the stove, so I'd guess (and it's an uneducated guess) that wherever that insulation is residing is also a point for it to get sucked into the firebox? Also, the insulation (what looks like kitty litter) was in front of the cat so I couldn't even see the cat anymore.

 

[Simon Templar]

as well as your cat temps

I knew I forgot to mention something I also find myself wishing I'd been keeping a log with this data...

I think for the most part, the cat spends a lot of time between 500-1000. And actually, before I go further, this is a condor thermometer that I thought measured the cat temp, but I was corrected and told that it measures the exhaust temps. Nonetheless, whatever that thing is measuring is what I'm reporting here.

I know a number of times I've seen extreme temps of 1100 and even 1200 (the latter not often, but I don't recall if it was once, twice, or ...?). When it burns hot I typically damp it down if for no other reason than to spread the heat out over more time, but I do know and admit that it got hot at least a few times. The worst was when I waited for the auto fan to turn on and it failed to do so. That one time the stove popped and cracked and smelled like it was new going through it's first burn, but it was almost three months old by then.

 

[bholler]

Well most of that sounds ok but how long do you let it run wide open in the morning? And what temps are you reaching then? Also you should be getting longer than 5 to 6 hours why are you only loading 1/2 to 2/3 full? How far do you shut down the air when you reach temp? The insulation almost has to be getting in from the top of the stove or from in the liner to end up up there but are you sure it is insulation and not parts of the cat?

 

[bholler]

this is a condor thermometer that I thought measured the cat temp, but I was corrected and told that it measures the exhaust temps.

Where is the probe for the thermometer at it should be right behind the cat which would be measuring the cat temp but if it is elsewhere those temps are way to high

 

[Simon Templar]

Well most of that sounds ok but how long do you let it run wide open in the morning? And what temps are you reaching then? Also you should be getting longer than 5 to 6 hours why are you only loading 1/2 to 2/3 full? How far do you shut down the air when you reach temp? The insulation almost has to be getting in from the top of the stove or from in the liner to end up up there but are you sure it is insulation and not parts of the cat?

Sorry if I'm being ambiguous here. Late afternoon or before dinner my goal is to load and burn enough to warm the house, but also to have it burn down in time so I can put a fresh load in for the overnight. If I loaded the box full I'd still have a lot of half-burnt fuel when I want to go to bed, so I load a few decent-sized splits and don't damp it more than half way so what I load burns by 10pm or so. So it's not that the stove isn't performing better or that I'm not getting good burn times, I'm just trying to time it so I'm in good shape to get a good overnight burn. Make sense?

 

[bholler]

Make sense?

Yes sort of if you load it full you may not have to reload before bed though also only shutting it half way could be part of the problem that is open pretty far and could cause over heating. And btw these stoves can run just fine without the blowers on you will not get as much heat off them but they should not over heat either

 

[mellow]

Im trying to figure out what the restrictor plate is? I don't know this stove well but I am guessing it is the secondary air inlet? Or did you have an overdraft issue and they do something to fix that?

 

[Simon Templar]

only shutting it half way could be part of the problem that is open pretty far and could cause over heating

Thanks bholler. When I've stopped using the stove for now until I can get in touch with regency to assure that it's safe to use. FWIW I came up with the shorter burn idea from the attached pdf from regency...

 

[bholler]

Im trying to figure out what the restrictor plate is? I don't know this stove well but I am guessing it is the secondary air inlet? Or did you have an overdraft issue and they do something to fix that?

The first ones that came out had trouble with short burn times and over firing so regency put out a restrictor plate that covers part of the doghouse to restrict flow on stoves with to much draft

 

[bholler]

hanks bholler. When I've stopped using the stove for now until I can get in touch with regency to assure that it's safe to use. FWIW I came up with the shorter burn idea from the attached pdf from regency...

There is no problem with loading less wood for a shorter burn but half open is to far open i think but honestly i have little experience burning these stoves just a few times for customers and from what the regency reps have told me. But it really looks like your stove was over fired pretty badly

 

[mellow]

From the looks of that firebox it didn't fix the overfiring issue

The firebox is sealed off from the rest, you could have had insulation in the blower air channels, but I doubt that was insulation in the cat, more like remnants of the old cat. No way could that have been sucked up into the stoves secondary air inlets and blow into the fire, it would have blocked the air tube first.

 

[bholler]

From the looks of that firebox it didn't fix the overfiring issue

yes or it is being run incorrectly or the damage was done before the plate was installed from all reports i have heard the restrictor works

 

[bholler]

The firebox is sealed off from the rest, you could have had insulation in the blower air channels, but I doubt that was insulation in the cat, more like remnants of the old cat. No way could that have been sucked up into the stoves secondary air inlets and blow into the fire, it would have blocked the air tube first.

I agree that the insulation did not come through the air inlets but i would not say it could not have gotten in else where but i dont know how it would have gotten in front of the cat most likely answer is that it is parts of the cat

 

[Simon Templar]

yes or it is being run incorrectly or the damage was done before the plate was installed from all reports i have heard the restrictor works

I agree that the restrictor works, and i don't mean to sound like I'm saying I didn't make mistakes, but when I said I burn with it half-damped that's with the restrictor plate installed. Before it was installed even fully-damped was a crazy-fast burn (active yellow flames, not blue and lazy)

 

[Woody Stover]

Poorly protected cats have plagued the cat stove industry since the 80's. It's what gave cat stoves a bad name. There has been a race to make these hybrid stove in order to beat the new EPA regulations, I'm afraid there hasn't been enough destruction testing done to prove their durability

I know you had a bad experience with a hybrid stove but this is the first regency that I have heard of so far with premature cat failure. Granted they have not been out long but over all I have heard mainly good things about them.

In this case, failure may have been due to the cat just getting way too hot because the blower wasn't working. But yeah, webby, you have to wonder how the average stove owner is going to run these stove. I would be super-cautious, but you know damn well that a lot of people are going to be running the thing wide open and getting huge secondaries with the bypass closed, and flames pounding the cat. And what happens if you have a full load in there, leave the house, then the power goes out? Or what if the blower motor goes out? Are you going to fry the cat every time the fan isn't working? I mean, I could probably run one of those stoves and do it prudently enough to avoid damage, but if they are that sensitive, these companies are going to shell out a lot of money fixing 'em, or destroy their reputations, or both before it's all said and done. Lopi and Regency had pretty good reps...

cat spends a lot of time between 500-1000....a number of times I've seen extreme temps of 1100 and even 1200 (the latter not often, but I don't recall if it was once, twice, or ...?)

Did you ever get down there and observe weather flames were reaching the face of the cat, when there were a lot of flames coming off the tubes? As long as the cat stays under 1800, it's supposed to be OK. But that's an exit temp when burning smoke. It's possible that when you have secondaries that are burning the smoke, the exit temp is low but flame is hitting the cat. Even if you were pounding the cat with flames, in your shoes I would try to dump it in Regency/dealer's lap; Their dealer's installer caused the stove to run hot when the blower didn't come on. Or the insulation plugging the front of the cat caused it to overheat and fry the cat. If it was just people running the stove with too much flame, bholler would have seen more failures already, I would think....but maybe not. BTW, I don't really see a cracked weld, just what looks like a horizontal crack in front of that weld on the side wall. Is that a crack in the front edge of the bypass opening as well? Also, did they consult you before they poured in the insulation, instead of insulating the liner as you originally agreed? If they just changed plans without consulting you, I would want them to pull it out and do it as originally agreed.

 

[bholler]

In this case, failure may have been due to the cat just getting way too hot because the blower wasn't working. But yeah, webby, you have to wonder how the average stove owner is going to run these stove. I would be super-cautious, but you know damn well that a lot of people are going to be running the thing wide open and getting huge secondaries with the bypass closed, and flames pounding the cat. And what happens if you have a full load in there, leave the house, then the power goes out? Or what if the blower motor goes out? Are you going to fry the cat every time the fan isn't working? I mean, I could probably run one of those stoves and do it prudently enough to avoid damage, but if they are that sensitive, these companies are going to shell out a lot of money fixing 'em, or destroy their reputations, or both before it's all said and done.

They work fine without the blower running that was not the cause And if it is being run wide open you will cook the stove that applies to most stoves not just hybrids. I am by no means saying regency hasn't had their problems with these stoves and they are not perfect but it seems like the problems have been taken care of.

 

[webby3650]

They work fine without the blower running that was not the cause And if it is being run wide open you will cook the stove that applies to most stoves not just hybrids. I am by no means saying regency hasn't had their problems with these stoves and they are not perfect but it seems like the problems have been taken care of.

Folks are saying that about Lopi's issues as well. But in reality nothing has changed, because the techs and engineers claim they don't know anything about it. The first step to fixing a problem is owning it.
1 tech at the trade show admitted that the Cape Cod in their test booth had all the same issue I had and others except the crack. At that time, they did not have any fix for the warping and cat degradation.

 

[bholler]

Folks are saying that about Lopi's issues as well. But in reality nothing has changed, because the techs and engineers claim they don't know anything about it. The first step to fixing a problem is owning it.
1 tech at the trade show admitted that the Cape Cod in their test booth had all the same issue I had and others except the crack. At that time, they did not have any fix for the warping and cat degradation.

Yes but regency fixed the problems with theirs that they had. They admitted there was a problem and put out a fix. I agree there will be problems with the new stoves it is all how the companies deal with the problems as they come up that makes the difference and thus far from what i have seen regency has dealt with them pretty well.

 

[Simon Templar]

Here are better shots of the two cracks I found [so far]. That's funny; both pics are appearing upside-down for some reason. Sorry about that.

Woody, while I did see secondary flames occasionally, I was never impressed that they were particularly big or active. In fact in another thread I asked about that because I sort of expected more secondary activity (but bear in mind I have no experience with this type of stove so I didn't really know what to expect)

I'm also really curious about how delicate the cat is (not to hijack my own thread here). I hear how bad flames are, but then why put the secondary air tube directly underneath it?

 

[mellow]

I think it is a piss poor design myself, the cat is quite fragile and this whole slapstick mess of throwing a tube in to clean up the exhaust has not been properly thought out with this insert. If I had bought this thing I would block the air to that secondary air tube, or at least greatly restrict it (another restrictor plate).

 

[mellow]

If you are curious as to how cats work this is a good write up: http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/How_They_Work.html
Operation Tips: http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/Operation_Tips.html
Maintenance: http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/maintenance.html

Another good write up: (broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/images/editorial_support/ProgressManual/catalytic%20combustors.pdf)

 

[Simon Templar]

If you are curious as to how cats work this is a good write up: http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/How_They_Work.html
Operation Tips: http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/Operation_Tips.html
Maintenance: http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/maintenance.html

Another good write up: (broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/images/editorial_support/ProgressManual/catalytic%20combustors.pdf)

Thanks Mellow; that's a lot of good info so I've saved and bookmarked it.

In this link ((broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/images/editorial_support/ProgressManual/catalytic%20combustors.pdf)) they make the following statement:
It is not necessary to burn your stove hot daily to burn off any creosote build up in the chimney. This function is performed by the catalytic combustor. It is there to reduce the emissions from the stove that contribute to deposits in the connector pipe and chimney flue.

And in my owner's manual, Regency makes the following statement:
Burn insert with draft control wide open for about 45 minutes every morning during burning season. This helps to prevent creosote deposits within the heating system.

I wonder if my following the instructions in the owner's manual led to an early demise of the cat.