a 2013 Leaf for the woodgeeks

[woodgeek]

Yup. At $0.12/kWh (the national average), the fuel cost per mile is roughly 25% that of gasoline at 22mpg. I think spouse is actually getting 3.5 mi/kWh.

The net $5000 savings over 36k miles pays about half of the lease cost. When I estimated repair, maintenance and depreciation on the vehicles it replaced, that was another few thou. I think I am out of pocket for $60/mo on the lease.

In PA, I was able to buy 100% wind power for $0.124/kWh on a 2 year contract (current rates are slightly higher), so I have zero carbon emissions per mile at the same time.

 

[woodgeek]

I have the Clipper Creek LCS-25. Charges at 20 amps, but the Volt only accepts 16, which is about 4 hrs for a full charge. So far no friends with Leafs have visited, but I am ready.

I figure my 30A EVSE will be aok for Leafy or Volty visitors, and the Teslas will just have to hang out awhile (they can charge at up to 80A off L2 ).

 

[Highbeam]

OK, help me with the math:

My car gets about 22 mpg overall. So at $3.80/gal, that's about 5.8 miles/$.

Your EV gets 3 miles/kwh overall, so at my $0.23/kwh, that's about 13 miles/$.

You folks who only pay $0.12/kwh would be getting 25 miles/$. Wow. That's sweet!

My last bill for over 1000 kwh worked out to less than 10 cents per kwh "all-in". My truck returns 15 mpg with 3.80$ fuel. It would be a big money saver for me.

The flip side would be the guy paying 23 cents per kwh while fueling his VW diesel at 50 mpg using 3.80 diesel. He would see less savings.

I prefer the backup genset of the volt for long trips but the next gen long range battery from the leaf might be almost as useful.

 

[Where2]

...The flip side would be the guy paying 23 cents per kwh while fueling his VW diesel at 50 mpg using 3.80 diesel. He would see less savings..

My VW's need some $3.80 diesel, I haven't seen it that cheap in months... (Yes 50mpg does happen)

My worst "all in" month was $0.31/kWh, but that was the month I only used 42kWh. Last month was a more reasonable $0.12/kWh since I used 212kWh... Problem is: I only spend $64 per month for diesel. So, I'd only save $38/mo on fuel unless I built a bigger solar farm...

 

[Highbeam]

My VW's need some $3.80 diesel, I haven't seen it that cheap in months... (Yes 50mpg does happen)

Diesel was 3.69$ per gallon at my station this morning. Gasoline at 3.75 which is what I'm burning in my 70 mpg motorcycle when the weather is favorable such as this week.

"All-in" electrical costs per kwh are nearly useless when you use such a small amount. The base fees and rates make up such a large percentage of the kwh that you can't gain much value from that figure.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

DId you consider the volt when looking? And if so what made you choose the leaf.?

 

[woodgeek]

Didn't consider it at all after seeing the specs. The biggest issue is price. The base trim Volt costs $10k more than the Leaf, and the teaser lease rate is $100/mo more. And the fuel savings would be the same (if all miles were EV miles) or less (if they weren't). So, instead of getting a car with a 60-80 mile EV range for net $60/mo, I would get a car with a 30-40 mile EV range that cost $160+/mo net, that could also burn gas if needed (which I won't need, b/c I already have another, bigger car for the occasional roadtrips, or short second car errand).

For someone with one car, a PHEV might make sense, but the EV range on the Volt would be marginal for the wife's needs.

From my POV, all that hybrid drivetrain cost money that I am not interested in paying for (since I wouldn't need/use it).

The Leaf has no gas tank, no emission system, no oil, and AFAIK the Volt has all of that stuff. Only Leaf maintenance is tires, wipers, blue stuff and an annual battery checkup at the dealer (for Nissan engineering).

 

[begreen]

Makes sense. Our priorities were entirely different. We purchased. I negotiated a sweet price for the Volt that after tax credit was almost the same that we paid for our Prius in 2006. It is our primary driving car and great on trips, yet a hoot to drive on our local curvy country roads. Its great handling has been an unexpected surprise. The Volt's electric range covers about 90% of our driving. We are on our 4th tank of gas in almost a year of ownership. Almost all the gas used has been on trips. It has been a nice step up from the Prius.

 

[woodgeek]

So, took a longer look at the Volt, and read a bit of Leaf bashing on Volt fora, and a few things emerge...

some obvious....
--Most people who buy the Leaf or the Volt are happy with their purchase.
--The Volt costs 33% more than the Leaf, seats 4 instead of 5, and has less interior and cargo space and headroom.
--Volt drivers seem to prefer the more conventional exterior styling, more lux interior styling, sporty driving and 25% higher horsepower of the Volt.
--Volt drivers talk a LOT about this thing called 'Range Anxiety', Leaf drivers not so much. Probably selection bias.
--Both Volt and Leaf drivers love to dis the Prius, as a car that has similar price/performance, but much higher fuel costs, emissions and cost of ownership.

some less obvious....
--While the Volt battery pack and EV range is half that of the Leaf, Volt drivers will much more often run it down to 0% (or wherever the gen cuts in), whereas Leaf drivers will maintain a reserve, say, never routinely using the last 20-30%. So Volt drivers talk about 'usable EV range' being only like 50% higher for the Leaf. Seems true.
--I gather the Volt EV range meter has built in capacity/SOC reserves, since maximum EV range is not crucial to sales/use, so as the battery ages, the capacity/EV range does not appear to drop at all. In contrast the Leaf range estimator will allow you to watch the (slow) degradation of your battery with the life of the vehicle. The leaf fora are full of 'my 3 month old Leaf just lost a bar of battery capacity, but my friends 1 year old Leaf still has 12 bars, wah!'. Seems like a psychological, rather than engineering issue, but could be significant for many drivers. Volt drivers seem convinced by this that their batteries are much more durable/long-lived...but I am skeptical. The chemistry is identical.
--Volt drivers rack up slightly more EV miles/yr than Leaf drivers....I suspect this is due to different needs...folks that need to drive more buy Volts, folks that are looking for an urban runabout buy Leafs.

Bottom line:
--the vehicles fill different niches of the EV market, and don't obviously compete for buyers. Teslas are IMO a third, distinct niche.
--both vehicles had glitches on roll out 3 years ago, Volts had some fires after tests, Leafs had some battery warranty claims in Arizona heat.
--after working out the early kinks, sales of both vehicles are showing robust growth to ~25k units in the US during 2013, more expected in 2014.
--the Volt got off to an early head start sales-wise, the Leaf is currently ahead on monthly figures. I see a lot more Volts on the road....I suspect that Leafs are more unevenly distributed, e.g. are popular in some metros in CA, Atlanta, not so much in the Snow Belt, and spend less time on the freeway (the only place you really 'see' other cars).

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I think the spark is more in line as competition for the leaf than the volt. Not sure how the 2 stack up against each other except for the sparks quick charge capability.

 

[velvetfoot]

How does the Prius plug in compare?

 

[begreen]

Good summary woodgeek. I would add that the Volt is a more upscale car with nicer interior fittings. We tried all the electric cars and plugin hybrids we could and the Leaf was our second choice. But that would have meant having a backup car for trips. The Ford Focus electric was pretty nice too, but the battery hogs interior space.

In plugin hybrids we took a lesson from the 2006 Prius which was reliable and economical, but not the most ideal car for trip driving. It wanders on the fwy, tar strips and passing trucks are always noticeable, the steering is really dead and the seats were uncomfortable. They have improved gas mileage and the seats a bit, but the car still is no handling giant. And I can't stand the centered instrument pod. The measly EV range for the PIP was not worth it. The Camry hybrid was much nicer, but the back seat doesn't fold down. We actually liked the Honda Civic Hybrid a lot, but again, no fold down back seat. The Ford CMax Energi was not too bad a car, rear seats were not the best, but the huge battery pack in the back was a deal killer. Ford needs to make electric cars from the ground up so that the battery pack is not taking from the passenger and load space.

 

[woodgeek]

How does the Prius plug in compare?

The plug in Prius, or PiP in EV lingo, is a weird beastie. It is a regular prius with an upgraded battery and an onboard charger for grid power.

In 'EV mode' it only has a 11 mi range, and a 62 mph max speed. Basically, if you keep it plugged in, it will run as an EV on short, non-freeway errands, but you will burn gas on any longer or freeway trips. Basically, the plug-in gives you a boost to the gas mileage, but doesn't really qualify as a useable EV per se.

(broken link removed to http://wallstcheatsheet.com/automobiles/chevy-volt-vs-toyota-prius-plug-in-how-do-they-stack-up.html/3/)

 

[woodgeek]

I think the spark is more in line as competition for the leaf than the volt. Not sure how the 2 stack up against each other except for the sparks quick charge capability.

Yar. In the last 12 mos, GM sold about 1000 Spark EVs. And they are only for sale in a couple limited markets in a couple states. Think beta testers.

My Leaf can charge 0 to 80% at one of 500 quickcharge stations in the US in 20-30 minutes. Is the spark faster?

Other than the Volt, Leaf and Tesla Model S, there are many different EVs out there, but none are really moving in volume in the US....think hundreds or thousands total. For both the Volt and LEAF there are ~50,000 units on the road today in the US....estimates for the Model S are all over the place, but are probably close to the same figure. And all three are plausibly on an exponential growth curve with planned major improvements in the pipeline.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...c-car-sales-for-2013-almost-double-last-years
http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

 

[GaryGary]

So, took a longer look at the Volt, and read a bit of Leaf bashing on Volt fora, and a few things emerge...

some obvious....
--Most people who buy the Leaf or the Volt are happy with their purchase.
--The Volt costs 33% more than the Leaf, seats 4 instead of 5, and has less interior and cargo space and headroom.
--Volt drivers seem to prefer the more conventional exterior styling, more lux interior styling, sporty driving and 25% higher horsepower of the Volt.
--Volt drivers talk a LOT about this thing called 'Range Anxiety', Leaf drivers not so much. Probably selection bias.
--Both Volt and Leaf drivers love to dis the Prius, as a car that has similar price/performance, but much higher fuel costs, emissions and cost of ownership.

some less obvious....
--While the Volt battery pack and EV range is half that of the Leaf, Volt drivers will much more often run it down to 0% (or wherever the gen cuts in), whereas Leaf drivers will maintain a reserve, say, never routinely using the last 20-30%. So Volt drivers talk about 'usable EV range' being only like 50% higher for the Leaf. Seems true.
--I gather the Volt EV range meter has built in capacity/SOC reserves, since maximum EV range is not crucial to sales/use, so as the battery ages, the capacity/EV range does not appear to drop at all. In contrast the Leaf range estimator will allow you to watch the (slow) degradation of your battery with the life of the vehicle. The leaf fora are full of 'my 3 month old Leaf just lost a bar of battery capacity, but my friends 1 year old Leaf still has 12 bars, wah!'. Seems like a psychological, rather than engineering issue, but could be significant for many drivers. Volt drivers seem convinced by this that their batteries are much more durable/long-lived...but I am skeptical. The chemistry is identical.
--Volt drivers rack up slightly more EV miles/yr than Leaf drivers....I suspect this is due to different needs...folks that need to drive more buy Volts, folks that are looking for an urban runabout buy Leafs.

Bottom line:
--the vehicles fill different niches of the EV market, and don't obviously compete for buyers. Teslas are IMO a third, distinct niche.
--both vehicles had glitches on roll out 3 years ago, Volts had some fires after tests, Leafs had some battery warranty claims in Arizona heat.
--after working out the early kinks, sales of both vehicles are showing robust growth to ~25k units in the US during 2013, more expected in 2014.
--the Volt got off to an early head start sales-wise, the Leaf is currently ahead on monthly figures. I see a lot more Volts on the road....I suspect that Leafs are more unevenly distributed, e.g. are popular in some metros in CA, Atlanta, not so much in the Snow Belt, and spend less time on the freeway (the only place you really 'see' other cars).

Hi,
One thing I'd point out on the Prius is that if you have a high percentage of long highway drives, it does better than either the Volt or the Leaf. The Volt "only" gets 37 mpg highway on gasoline vs 48 for the Prius (plugin or regular), and the Leaf is not intended for the long highway drive role.

3/4's or our driving is long highway drives. I've not found anything other than a railroad (if we had access to one) that will equal the Prius on energy cost or carbon emissions for that driving mix. We are on our 2nd one and find it to be a very comfortable highway cruiser.

As you say, different vehicles work out best for different niches.


Comparison of a few random vehicles.
The 52.6 mpg is what we got on our last 2270 mile trip (EPA is 48 hwy)

Vehiclempgpax mpg
Prius 52.6 105.3 (two adults with no credit for carrying the dog)
Ford Expedition 18 36 (two adults)
airplane 0.43 41.7 (737 next gen with 97 pax onboard -- gasoline equiv)
train 230 (avg of several -- gasoline equiv)
motor cycle 60 60 (1 pax Suzuki GS500)
Queen Mary 0.00753 15 (with 2000 passenger onboard -- gasoline equivalent)

NOTE: I can't get the table above to format right for the forum, but its at the very bottom of this page: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Vehicles/ourprius.htm


An interesting page on efficiency of different types of vehicles:
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/EfficiencyTransport/strickland.htm



Gary

 

[isipwater]

Nice Leaf woodgeek. It sounds like the Leaf fits your driving needs perfectly. I can't wait to get my first EV. I have not had the pleasure of driving a Volt or Leaf but I did get a chance to test drive a Tesla S about 9 months ago. The Tesla far exceeded all of my expectations. I think the more people get behind the wheels of EV's, the more people will realize how wonderful they are to drive, as compared to ICE's.

My current commute is 60 miles round trip on backroads. I also live in Massachusetts, with quite cold winters. I wish the Leaf had a little more range and I think I would be sold. As for now, I have a 3rd gen Prius and between winter and summer, am averaging 60 mpg. The Prius really likes the slower speeds of back roads as compared to faster highway speeds.

Thanks for sharing. Keep us updated!!

 

[woodgeek]

Agreed. Our new 2013 Leaf tells us it can do 84-86 miles on a 100% SOC battery, and off the freeway I believe it. So the leaf would work for your roundtrip commute, when new, in warm weather. Or if your work installed a charger (even the 120V L1 charger would add 25 miles in 6 hours).

But I agree that that is too many ifs at this point.

The gen 2 leaf (with greater range TBD) is slated fro MY 2016, due out sometime in 2015. Unless the development schedule slips.

In the meantime it sounds like the Prius is a great option for you (and Gary).

 

[begreen]

I'll say. 60 mpg average for winter/summer is awesome. With gen 2 we were more like 46 mpg average which isn't bad. This was probably due to many shorter trips and a lot of up and down hills.

 

[sloeffle]

My current commute is 60 miles round trip on backroads. I also live in Massachusetts, with quite cold winters. I wish the Leaf had a little more range and I think I would be sold. As for now, I have a 3rd gen Prius and between winter and summer, am averaging 60 mpg. The Prius really likes the slower speeds of back roads as compared to faster highway speeds.

I commute around 60 miles a day also but it is 90% highway driving. I usually average around 70MPH for most of my commute. What kind of MPG do you see generally see out of the Prius at those speeds ?

Scott

 

[woodgeek]

Recent article about avoiding 'stale gas' in the Volt:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/11/a...NextInCollection&region=Footer&pgtype=article

That's how you know you are not using very much!

 

[isipwater]

I commute around 60 miles a day also but it is 90% highway driving. I usually average around 70MPH for most of my commute. What kind of MPG do you see generally see out of the Prius at those speeds ?

Scott

My wife and I each have a 3rd generation 2010 prius.

Result vary depending on driver. I am more careful with the gas pedal and go slower than her, so my milage is usually better.

At 70mph, I would expect for my prius to get about 50-55 mpg. Better in the warm weather and worse in the winter.

I can go 10k miles between oil changes.

My brake pads rarely get used since I almost always am using the regenerative breaking. One of our priuses is almost at 90k miles with original pads, with plenty of wear left on them.

The other thing I like about the 3rd gen prius is that it does not have a timing belt, so no need for that costly repair job.

Of course, with EV's, there are no timing belts and even better no oil changes.

 

[GaryGary]

My wife and I each have a 3rd generation 2010 prius.

Result vary depending on driver. I am more careful with the gas pedal and go slower than her, so my milage is usually better.

At 70mph, I would expect for my prius to get about 50-55 mpg. Better in the warm weather and worse in the winter.

I can go 10k miles between oil changes.

My brake pads rarely get used since I almost always am using the regenerative breaking. One of our priuses is almost at 90k miles with original pads, with plenty of wear left on them.

The other thing I like about the 3rd gen prius is that it does not have a timing belt, so no need for that costly repair job.

Of course, with EV's, there are no timing belts and even better no oil changes.

I'm getting very similar mpg on our Prius in highway driving and cruise around 70 mph -- usually in the range 50 to 53 mpg.

Have not replaced any brakes pad on two prius.

Gary

 

[midwestcoast]

I commute around 60 miles a day also but it is 90% highway driving. I usually average around 70MPH for most of my commute. What kind of MPG do you see generally see out of the Prius at those speeds ?

Scott

My commute was a bit longer than that, at similar speeds (if the d@%*#d traffic would allow) for a couple years & with our 2006 Prius I averaged just over 50 mpg. Tires ~5psi overinflated, stingy on the heat & AC, grill block in winter but no other hyper-miling antics.

 

[begreen]

Recent article about avoiding 'stale gas' in the Volt:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/11/a...NextInCollection&region=Footer&pgtype=article

That's how you know you are not using very much!

Several of the folks quoted are enthusiastic geeks or hypermilers. They will do anything to eek out another mile. We drive the car normally, turning on the heat whenever we want heat. The responsiveness and good handling of the Volt can lead to a bit of a lead foot because it's fun and on electric. That hurts range, but if the range is still within your normal day's driving, c'est la vie!

 

[sloeffle]

Thanks for the info about the Prius. I am not in the market yet ( <2 - 3 years ) for another vehicle. My wife and I probably easily spend around 300$ a month in gas between the two of us. I unfortunately do not see the price of gas or diesel going down so our next vehicle will probably be some type of EV or hybrid.

woodgeek's cost numbers:

Yup. At $0.12/kWh (the national average), the fuel cost per mile is roughly 25% that of gasoline at 22mpg. I think spouse is actually getting 3.5 mi/kWh.

are big eye opener on how much money we could be saving on gasoline.