800-850+ degree temps
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hovering just between 600-625 seems steady, its 2:36 AM here, tired, time for bed er um couch till the addidionis done. Night
This is getting weird... I knew they packed some sort of hallucinogenic drug in every PE box... hell, Hog was completely normal until about a week ago.
-- Mike
-- Mike
I am by no means any kind of an expert. But, in my experience, once I think I have figured out something, I find there is more to learn and figure out. For me, there are so many variables involved with burning wood that it has taken me a few years to get good at it with the stove I was learning on. Recently, we bought an additional wood burner and I was thinking it was going to be a snap to use it to heat our house. This new insert (Lopi - Revere) operates so differently, than our old VC Dutchwest, that I feel like I know nothing about wood stoves.
gwm - trying to live and learn
gwm - trying to live and learn
Hogwildz said:
HW
From this point forward you were likely (in my opinion) suffering from new owner disease. I'm betting ya could have just walked away and let the EBT handle it from this point on. Although your temp dropped to 310 I think it likely would have taken off again on its' own.
Play if you want, I know I did for a few weeks when I first got mine, but after the initial desire to fiddle with the settings wore off, I don't bother much anymore. I know that I won't get secondary burn all night long with the damper closed all the way, but I don't care. All I want is to wake up 7 hours later with a good enough bed of coals that the fan is still running and I didn't have to get up and put wood in. Yeah, the house will cool off a little overnight, say on average 3 or 4 degrees, but then I just enjoy it all that more when I get her cranked again in the morning. From your posts it seems that your issue of hitting 850+ has solved itself?
Dylan said:
I think you are reading too much into it Dylan , I throw a few logs/splits in my stove adjust the air control twice ( once for charing the wood - once for dampering down ) and thats it .
The stove is new to Hogwildz and like for anybody it does take some "fine tuning" to learn a new stove.
But , like every good show ........ there's still always a heckler in the back of the audience. :zip:
Willhound said:
Your prolly right LOL.
I'm still in the paranoid stage.
I got the beast leveled off at 600 degrees. My concern was not to hit 800+ again, I didn't, Roo gave me pointers and it worked beautifully.
I will say overnight, the EBT worked like a charm, every time I saw the flames kick up, it was the EBT keeping her right at 600. When she dropped a lil lower it kicked on, when she got a lil higher the EBT shut down. Pretty impressive for what appears to be a simple mechanism. But regulated the load & heat automatically it seemed. Unless thats coincidence. That load lasted about 12 hrs. from start till it dropped down around 300 with lots of coals glowing red. The auto fan shutting on & off (cycling) more frequently is the signal for me that its time to add more wood. In another week or so, I will be better used to it, and letting it do its thing more & more.
I'd rather be over protective then warp my new insert.
[quote author="Hogwildz" date="1167467549]
Your prolly right LOL.
I'm still in the paranoid stage.
I got the beast leveled off at 600 degrees. My concern was not to hit 800+ again, I didn't, Roo gave me pointers and it worked beautifully.
I will say overnight, the EBT worked like a charm, every time I saw the flames kick up, it was the EBT keeping her right at 600. When she dropped a lil lower it kicked on, when she got a lil higher the EBT shut down. Pretty impressive for what appears to be a simple mechanism. But regulated the load & heat automatically it seemed. Unless thats coincidence. That load lasted about 12 hrs. from start till it dropped down around 300 with lots of coals glowing red. The auto fan shutting on & off (cycling) more frequently is the signal for me that its time to add more wood. In another week or so, I will be better used to it, and letting it do its thing more & more.
I'd rather be over protective then warp my new insert.[/quote]
No coincidence, that was the EBT you wuz watchin'. Sounds about what mine does too. You're right, better to be paranoid at first, it keeps you on your toes. Yeah, the fan shutting off some mornings is what gets me out of bed to load her back up. After you get used to it, the lack of fan noise stands out, if that makes sense.
Your prolly right LOL.
I'm still in the paranoid stage.
I got the beast leveled off at 600 degrees. My concern was not to hit 800+ again, I didn't, Roo gave me pointers and it worked beautifully.
I will say overnight, the EBT worked like a charm, every time I saw the flames kick up, it was the EBT keeping her right at 600. When she dropped a lil lower it kicked on, when she got a lil higher the EBT shut down. Pretty impressive for what appears to be a simple mechanism. But regulated the load & heat automatically it seemed. Unless thats coincidence. That load lasted about 12 hrs. from start till it dropped down around 300 with lots of coals glowing red. The auto fan shutting on & off (cycling) more frequently is the signal for me that its time to add more wood. In another week or so, I will be better used to it, and letting it do its thing more & more.
I'd rather be over protective then warp my new insert.[/quote]
No coincidence, that was the EBT you wuz watchin'. Sounds about what mine does too. You're right, better to be paranoid at first, it keeps you on your toes. Yeah, the fan shutting off some mornings is what gets me out of bed to load her back up. After you get used to it, the lack of fan noise stands out, if that makes sense.
No EBT here, but FWIW, in my first season with the Kennebec I adjusted the thing once an hour, sometimes more, just to learn how it worked. Now I'm down to the usual 2 settings, pretty much like Roo said, once to char the wood and heat her up, and then the damper down setting. Good luck and enjoy the learning curve.
-- Mike
-- Mike
Willhound said:
No coincidence, that was the EBT you wuz watchin'. Sounds about what mine does too. You're right, better to be paranoid at first, it keeps you on your toes. Yeah, the fan shutting off some mornings is what gets me out of bed to load her back up. After you get used to it, the lack of fan noise stands out, if that makes sense.[/quote]
Yeap, perfect since. I am on the couch about 6 or 8' away LOL. And hear it, on/off,,,,on/off , when she don't kick back on for a while, I know its time to feed the beast. I gotta get this addition done damnit LOL. Couch is getting old quick! Acutally the fan on high is like white noise for me, makes me sleep like a baby. So yes when it kicks off, that wakes me up.
Ok guys, been following the thread and gotta know. Why did EBT let that sucker get to 800 in the first place?
Inquiring minds and all that.
Inquiring minds and all that.
BrotherBart said:
Thats a good question. Only thing I can think of:
Kinda like a runaway train, or a semi truck going down a steep grade.
If ya ease it along, the brakes can help keep control. But once past a certain speed, the brakes are not enough to stop it completely.
I fit about as much as I could in tonight. I left the door cracked for 10 mins, then closed door and left air wide open another 10-15 mins, set the air intake down to about 25% another 15 or so, then all the way down. At this point It was 350-400 degrees. I left it alone did some more work, which I am still doing
, had a smoke, went back and glanced an hour later....600 degrees. Been holding steady EBT going on and off as needed.Before, I was leaving the sucker wide open with smaller splits mind ya, and not a total full box. I was not shutting the air down till about between 400-450 sometimes 500. At this point I guess it was a runaway, just not built up to full momentum. But the smaller splits totally ablaze. I guess theres just a point were the ETB can't control the blaze thats already there, while not opening to furhter more air in, at this point even closed, the blaze is so far gone that even ETB closed is beyond helping.
Or I did notice at 800 even 800+, withing about an hour or so, it came back down to 600. Maybe if its really hot and goes wild, it just takes the EBT longer to bet control.
It never stayed at 800 or more for more than an hour or two. Don't really think it went a full 2 hours that high. But I wasn't timing it either. I do know it eventually came back down to 600. For mine 600 seems to be the magic temp. Although I did find that I can keep it steady at any temp below that. And prolly after if I managed it well.
600 gives a good house temp, might go 650-700 if/when the weather ever truly get cold like it should be.
Just my guess and theory. Its all I can offer BB.
BrotherBart said:
IMO the EBT did not let it get that hot, the EBT would be closed long before 800 degrees. Good wood and running wide open gets you 800.
In my brief experience on MY stove after charring and closing the air all the way I maintain the current temp on stove top. Temps never rise after dampening even with EBT. If I want to run the stove at 600- wide open air till 600 then dampen it down-thats it.
It would be nice to know at what temp the EBT closes.
We've been playing with a Summit the past few months, and here are our observations. The EBT mechanism seems to be actuated by the temperature at the bottom of the firebox, which is much cooler than the +- 1100 degrees in the secondary burn chamber and 400 - 800 degree top plate temps. Evidently, PE's engineers have determined the corresponding temps between the secondary burn chamber and the EBT chamber below, and designed the actuater coil to operate in that lower temperature range.
We've noticed that when we're kindling a fresh fire with the draft control wide open and the secondary burn lights off, the stovetop temperature will soar much more quickly than the rest of the stove: by the time the sensing coil in the EBT mechanism reaches the temp at which it begins to shut down the extra air supply, the stovetop can easily have reached 800 degrees.
Since the EBT only supplies EXTRA air to the fire, operation of the primary manual draft control is an important factor to safe operation. We've found that if we leave the manual draft wide open, the stove can overfire even after the EBT has shut down the extra air. With experience, we've learned to move the manual draft to a lower setting around the time the stovetop reaches 650 - 700 degrees. At this point the secondary fire is blazing, and the stovetop temperature will continue to rise for awhile, until the lack of combustion air brings the fire back under control.
At this point, we leave the draft control on the low setting for the duration of the fire, and let the EBT open and close the extra air intake as needed to maintain the secondary burn as long as the load keeps giving off volatile gases. The result is the longest possible clean burn.
I've been trying to create a graphic representation of the way the EBT works, and have published the work-in-progress on the EBT page in our Sweep's Library at (broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoebt.htm). Would appreciate input from the Summit owners on the forum.
We've noticed that when we're kindling a fresh fire with the draft control wide open and the secondary burn lights off, the stovetop temperature will soar much more quickly than the rest of the stove: by the time the sensing coil in the EBT mechanism reaches the temp at which it begins to shut down the extra air supply, the stovetop can easily have reached 800 degrees.
Since the EBT only supplies EXTRA air to the fire, operation of the primary manual draft control is an important factor to safe operation. We've found that if we leave the manual draft wide open, the stove can overfire even after the EBT has shut down the extra air. With experience, we've learned to move the manual draft to a lower setting around the time the stovetop reaches 650 - 700 degrees. At this point the secondary fire is blazing, and the stovetop temperature will continue to rise for awhile, until the lack of combustion air brings the fire back under control.
At this point, we leave the draft control on the low setting for the duration of the fire, and let the EBT open and close the extra air intake as needed to maintain the secondary burn as long as the load keeps giving off volatile gases. The result is the longest possible clean burn.
I've been trying to create a graphic representation of the way the EBT works, and have published the work-in-progress on the EBT page in our Sweep's Library at (broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoebt.htm). Would appreciate input from the Summit owners on the forum.
Mike, PE didn't leave any in the box my stove came in, I'm calling my dealer right now!
Hog, thanks for posting with your experience this has been way informative.[/quote]
thechimneysweep said:
Tom: All I can say is I shut the air intake al the way down to low at about 400 degrees. Woods dry, airs all the way down. And hour later touching nothing, 600 degrees, an hr or so after that pegged 850+. I realize the front of the insert is thinner teel, But 800+ is 800+ regardless of where it is. If I could reach 500 even 600 shut the air down and it maintain, I would be fine with that. My problem is my Summit rises a good double or more temp from whenI shut down air. It must be getting air from somewhere. Would too good a draft from new liner cause this? Still needs air from somewhere right?
I pretty much do it almost exactly as you described, with the exception of the time I shut the air to low. I do that about 400 and don't touch the door or air afterwards.
Yet it still gets air enough to rise to 800+. I don't think the ETB is causing this. I can see it come on and shut down when it does. I had no serious blaze when it got up to the high temps, it as basically blue flame with very few small org=anges here and there, but mostly blue flame & nothing roaring, more rolling along. The round & big plits I put in were like a round or split that looked like it was almost completely a coal, just intake still. At one point of the 6 pcs I put in, 3 or 4 were still in split form but like a big coal. Dunno if this helps, but thats what I observed. Took about at least 2 hrs to drop back down, then was fine rest of the night. BTW I still got about a 10- 12 hr burn out of it. 10pm fan started going on & off about 9-10 am this morn. Thats what woke me up.
Gunner: As far as you saying you can run to 600, shut the air down and it doesn't rise. Congrats, I know with this insert, I cannot do that. It will continue to rise.
So it narrows down to 2 things, either I am not doing something correctly, or something on the insert is wrong. I tend to lead to me being wrong, and I need to figure out how to stop her from soaring long after I shut the air intake down. If it is by chance something with the insert, well then now I have to figure that out & narrow it down. Gonna let her burn out today, check door gap, don't want to pull the baffle, was thinking maybe in shipping the baffle gasket got pinched, dislodged ect. But she getting air at secondary, and only two places for air to come in other than EBT. The door, or the intake. I'll figure it out, was just hoping someone with same stove might have had similar experiences like mine, and some advice as to how to right the problem.
Some folks have decided to give me sh-t for this thread, yes I am a rookie at wood burnng yet. Good thing I am a fast learner
. Some folks have been very helpful, which is why I posted this. Again, all I can say is yes I am new to this, but I would sure as hell be too paranoid, then wake up to my house blazing away. Or my family burning up. And I am sure many felt the same way when starting out. I am here for help, and thats why I asked. I rake the coals to front, load front to back trying for the cigar effect. I will say after a day of burning there is a crapload of coals. Sometimes enough that when I pull front, they still cover 1/2 the bottom of firebox. Could this be the problem? Can there be too many coals? Dumb questions I know, and yes I am a pain in the arse with them. But I gotta learn this stuff somewhere, this is the best place I found yet.
They aren't dumb questions at all HW. You are experiencing EXACTLY what I went through with the first 30-NC. That thing only knew one way to burn, flat out. Even with the air shut down. I started out blaming me, the wood, the draft and phases of the moon etc. When I had eliminated those as the cause I took aim at the stove. And within minutes found a manufacturing defect that was letting air in around the door. I should have found it earlier but due to the nature of the leaks I missed'em with the bill test. I wanted the stove to not be the cause so bad it shaded my troubleshooting. Lugged it out, put the new one in its place and it is a whole different, controllable world.
Not saying there is anything wrong with that stove, but at some point you have to consider that there might be. Even with PE's robot welders and stuff something could have slipped through.
A stove that takes off when primary air is closed down at 400-450 and runs up to 800+ is a damn good reason to ask questions.
Not saying there is anything wrong with that stove, but at some point you have to consider that there might be. Even with PE's robot welders and stuff something could have slipped through.
A stove that takes off when primary air is closed down at 400-450 and runs up to 800+ is a damn good reason to ask questions.
Hog,
Don't panic. When the secondary burn first fires off and there's still plenty of air in the stove and in the fresh load of wood itself, PE stoves can sort of take off like a rocket, even if you slide the manual draft all the way to Low. The Summit we've been playing with does this nearly every time we reload, often hitting 800+ degrees before it settles down, which can take well over an hour sometimes. The Spectrum I heat my house with does the same thing, with no damage to the stove after 14 years. I'm not suggesting you can leave the air control wide open and prolong this temperature, just saying that a temperature spike will always follow the kindling stage of a fresh load, and won't hurt your stove a bit.
Don't panic. When the secondary burn first fires off and there's still plenty of air in the stove and in the fresh load of wood itself, PE stoves can sort of take off like a rocket, even if you slide the manual draft all the way to Low. The Summit we've been playing with does this nearly every time we reload, often hitting 800+ degrees before it settles down, which can take well over an hour sometimes. The Spectrum I heat my house with does the same thing, with no damage to the stove after 14 years. I'm not suggesting you can leave the air control wide open and prolong this temperature, just saying that a temperature spike will always follow the kindling stage of a fresh load, and won't hurt your stove a bit.
It's a bimetallic coil, which automatically unwinds and rewinds due to metal expansion and contraction. You'll find them in non-digital thermostats, and can see a sketch of PE's on our web page referenced above (the coil is at the extreme left in the blue diagram at mid-page).
thechimneysweep said:
Thanks Tom, I did at least check for cherry or glowing spots again last night.....nothing, not even a hint.
The baffle wasn't even glowing. It usually does settle down as you said. last night it took a good couple of hours too.
Like I said I don't see any flames from hell swirling like a ball of fire, just mostly blue lazy flames which I actually expect to see. The splits and rounds glowing like a big ol coal, is that normal? I am going to try and start with a smaller coal bed base at the fron again tonight. Its hard to burn the load from front to back when 1/2 the box is 3 or 4" or more of cherry coals. Run out of room up from to rake them to. I'll do the dollar bill test while its cooled down. Honestly it isn't a flaming inferno though. Just some laxy blue flames & ALOT of glowing coal splits, seems to always start in the middle and spread out from there, then crates a cave of hot calls so to speak, afte this area in center widens some, its calms down and drops back down to around 600 degrees. I think I'll try and put the round inthe center and see if that slows it down. The rounds do always last the longest and don't seem to burn or turn to coals as quickly.
BB, Tom, everyone, thanks, at the risk of sounding like a whiner, I just want to make sure my family is safe. And what better place to get good info than here.
BTW, not knocking dealers, but the PE dealer here dones know jack sh-t about the products he sells. But was closest and lesser of all the evils here.
Doesn't even install.
Thanks gentlemen.
Hogz
Hog, I don't have a thermometer on my Summit (yet - just ordered one after reading this post) so I can't compare surface temps. I can tell you tho that after alot of newbie experimenting my summit seems happiest when I throttle back the air supply quicker than you describe above. Leave the door cracked for maybe a minute or two, closed with air wide open another five minutes or so, then throttle down to about 20% and usually just leave it there. Most of the time leaving it cracked open just a little seems to work better than taking tha air intake all the way down.
I'm burning mostly sugar maple and oak with some cherry mixed in, all just within the "yeh this is definitely ok to burn" limit of adequately seasoned. Also my chimney is in an interior wall. Don't know how much these variables would make a difference when comparing burn techniques. In any event the fire you describe sure doesn't sound like a runaway train kinda fire.
When I get the thermometer I'll write back with some numbers.
Tom - great work on the EBT page, never completely understood the whole thing until just now. I think.
OK well, after doing the dollar bill test on the door, I found a substancial problem area.
First I out a straight egde along the stoves door opening framing. the top is bowed out in the center, with 1/8" gap at the left side and a lil bit less on the right( looking at it head on). The dollar is between fairly snug with some resistance, to alot of resistance wont pull through or move. left left side the complete side about a dollar width or so at top, and about 6" on the bottm left side I can wiggle the dollar back and forth no problems. It pulls right out with NO resistance. I even folded it in half and still had same results. I could almost slide the dollar sideways while its in the door. the right side seems fine, but the left is wayyyy too lose. Not that I think about it, there is a good amount of dirt, creosote etc on the glass on the loose side, while the tight side is much cleaner. Now I wonder if I can adjust it or not. Really don't want to be pulling it out and swapping at this point. If its a minor fix that is. I also noticed the rope gasket has a good imprint of the stoves door opening arounf it where its tight. on the complete left side it has NO imprint at all! So where the door is tight, it has made an imprint in the rope, where the door is loose it left absolutely no imprint.
I think I found my problem, or at least one of them. Hopefull no more.
Now, can I slightly bend the door latch receiver on the stove inward just a lil to tighten the door on that side? It doenst look like I can add any washers on the door latch itself. Man this is frustrating after all the cash spent & hard work. But needs to be remidied, hopefully by me on this stove.
downloading photos now. will post shortly.
First I out a straight egde along the stoves door opening framing. the top is bowed out in the center, with 1/8" gap at the left side and a lil bit less on the right( looking at it head on). The dollar is between fairly snug with some resistance, to alot of resistance wont pull through or move. left left side the complete side about a dollar width or so at top, and about 6" on the bottm left side I can wiggle the dollar back and forth no problems. It pulls right out with NO resistance. I even folded it in half and still had same results. I could almost slide the dollar sideways while its in the door. the right side seems fine, but the left is wayyyy too lose. Not that I think about it, there is a good amount of dirt, creosote etc on the glass on the loose side, while the tight side is much cleaner. Now I wonder if I can adjust it or not. Really don't want to be pulling it out and swapping at this point. If its a minor fix that is. I also noticed the rope gasket has a good imprint of the stoves door opening arounf it where its tight. on the complete left side it has NO imprint at all! So where the door is tight, it has made an imprint in the rope, where the door is loose it left absolutely no imprint.
I think I found my problem, or at least one of them. Hopefull no more.
Now, can I slightly bend the door latch receiver on the stove inward just a lil to tighten the door on that side? It doenst look like I can add any washers on the door latch itself. Man this is frustrating after all the cash spent & hard work. But needs to be remidied, hopefully by me on this stove.
downloading photos now. will post shortly.
Hogwildz , Here is one thing to look at , the placement of the thermometer , maybe move it to the left of where it is now . If you think about how hot the secondary burn gets (1100°-1400°) the flames whip right by the thermometer at the top front as you have it , moving to the side of the door opening may change your reading.
Now when you tell us the temp is rising and your getting blue flame and the secondary burn is working its magic my response to you is ............ Think of all that extra efficiency/heat you are getting from your secondary burn that older non/pre EPA stoves are not getting.
Once you get the fire going on a reload turn the air damper down to 80% open vs 100% and let the wood char from there and if you have to after a few minutes turn the air damper down to 40% and run there for a wile before shutting all the way down. The only time i run 100% open air damper is if i dont have a lot of coals to relight the wood on a smaller load , with a good coal bed and 100% open air damper is a quick mix for a big fire fast.
Again with the "window burning" , try charring your wood and running your stove by looking through the window and dont look at the thermometer for a wile , do all your settings by how the fire and wood looks and after you made your settings and decisions and the stove is where you think it should be then you can confirm your setting by looking at the thermometer.
#1 Work on slower charring of a new load of wood with less open damper.
#2 You dont have to wait until you see secondary burn all the time to turn the damper down. look for charred wood to the point where it can burn its self with out blasting it with air.
#3 Run your damper at two stages before turning all the way down ( 80
d lower to 40% and lower )
#4 let yourself run the stove and just use the thermometer to confirm information , dont let the thermometer run the stove.
#5 in a few months you'll be the expert and answering forum questions on how to best run a stove.
EDIT: Hogwildz, we were posting at the same time.
NO CHIT the door frame is off 1/8" ! interesting .........awaiting pics
Now when you tell us the temp is rising and your getting blue flame and the secondary burn is working its magic my response to you is ............ Think of all that extra efficiency/heat you are getting from your secondary burn that older non/pre EPA stoves are not getting.
Once you get the fire going on a reload turn the air damper down to 80% open vs 100% and let the wood char from there and if you have to after a few minutes turn the air damper down to 40% and run there for a wile before shutting all the way down. The only time i run 100% open air damper is if i dont have a lot of coals to relight the wood on a smaller load , with a good coal bed and 100% open air damper is a quick mix for a big fire fast.
Again with the "window burning" , try charring your wood and running your stove by looking through the window and dont look at the thermometer for a wile , do all your settings by how the fire and wood looks and after you made your settings and decisions and the stove is where you think it should be then you can confirm your setting by looking at the thermometer.
#1 Work on slower charring of a new load of wood with less open damper.
#2 You dont have to wait until you see secondary burn all the time to turn the damper down. look for charred wood to the point where it can burn its self with out blasting it with air.
#3 Run your damper at two stages before turning all the way down ( 80
d lower to 40% and lower )
#4 let yourself run the stove and just use the thermometer to confirm information , dont let the thermometer run the stove.
#5 in a few months you'll be the expert and answering forum questions on how to best run a stove.
EDIT: Hogwildz, we were posting at the same time.
NO CHIT the door frame is off 1/8" ! interesting .........awaiting pics
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