4 way wedge on home build splitter

[DonTee]

Ok cool. So I’ll buy a pair of those from TSC next time I’m there.

The next thing I need for the cylinder are two new 1” pins. The pin that mounts the cylinder to the pusher is pretty bent. Almost to where I can’t get it through anymore. That one is only 4” wide I think.

The pin that mounts the other end is one I need to get regardless, since the other cylinder wasn’t mounted that way before. It needs to be about 7” wide. The cylinder mounting area is 4 1/4” wide.

So I’ve been looking at different pins at TSC and online. Most of them that are 7” long also have a handle at the end. Is my best bet to get one of these and cut the handle off? Or maybe just leave the handle on and put a clip or cotter pin at the other end.

They also have 7” long grade 8 bolts at TSC. Maybe use one of these as a pin? I think the threads would make it weaker though.

 

[DonTee]

It’s funny because they sell the loose hardware at TSC by the pound. So the grade 8 stuff is like 6$ a lbs. I weighed a 1x7” bolt the other day and it was about 2 lbs. Thats like a 12$ bolt. Haha.

 

[ericm979]

JIC 6 seems small for 16 gpm.

 

[DonTee]

I’m not sure what size pump I have right now, but it might not be 16gpm. When I do upgrade the pump, I’ll upgrade the hydraulic lines and fittings as well.

I’m assuming a normal JIC size to go with a 1/2” NPT ports on the cylinder and new pump would be JIC 8?

 

[Ashful]

Ok cool. So I’ll buy a pair of those from TSC next time I’m there.

The next thing I need for the cylinder are two new 1” pins...

Honestly, you'd do well to just use McMaster (or Grainger, or MSC... whoever you prefer). They have everything you need in one place, at least McMaster always delivers next day (often same-day), and can save you a lot of driving around and separate orders for each component. Also, you know what you're getting is full spec, their business is based on delivering product that meets spec.

JIC 6 seems small for 16 gpm.

Yes, it is. Normally you'd want at least JIC-8 on output, and at least 3/4" inlet. But Jags did some quick math and made an argument that the penalty for staying with his current lines at JIC-6 may not be that bad. I'm interested to see, not that I don't trust Jags' math or reasoning, but wondering what secondary effects may present.

I don't recall the details, but I believe going JIC-8 (1/2") may have caused Don to have to upgrade other components.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

According to the charts, 16 gpm should be 3/4", but very few splitters have 3/4" lines with a 16 gpm pump. If it was a 22 gpm, then you would need 3/4" lines. Undersized lines and fittings generate heat. The charts/tables for hydraulic flow and line size take that into account. You can undersize, but if you go too far it will bite you.

3/8 will generate some heat on 11 gpm, and more on 16 gpm. The important thing is the fitting ID. The hole in the fitting is always much smaller than the hose, and that is why the recommended line sizes seem oversize. Add up the number of fittings and hose ends and you get a pretty good idea of how much restriction you have in a system. Some fittings have smaller holes than others of the same kind. Take a look at air fittings for a very good example. Different mfg's make different size holes. Pressure rating has some influence, but I have seen a variety of hole sizes within the same pressure rating on the same size/style of fitting. I have even drilled out undersized holes in fittings. I am not talking about restrictor fittings, fyi. Just regular fittings. The same goes for imported carbs. Many have smaller bores than the usa version.

 

[DonTee]

The shipping on these small parts always kills me. One of my other hobbies is vintage audio gear. I might need a couple 16 cent capacitors, but then shipping is 10$. It’s crazy. Of course back before the internet you could go to RadioShack, but that’s not an option anymore. Ok rant over

 

[Isaac Carlson]

Yep, and the markup now on parts is insane. What used to cost 10 cents is $10.

 

[Ashful]

According to the charts, 16 gpm should be 3/4"

I think you're too experienced to have mixed up inlet and outlet ports, so you must be looking at different charts, than me. Nearly every pump manufacturer I can recall spec's 1/2" outlet on a 16 gpm pump, and 3/4 or 1 inch on suction line/inlet only.

The same goes for imported carbs.

Imported carbs?

 

[Isaac Carlson]

I think you're too experienced to have mixed up inlet and outlet ports, so you must be looking at different charts, than me. Nearly every pump manufacturer I can recall spec's 1/2" outlet on a 16 gpm pump, and 3/4 or 1 inch on suction line/inlet only.


Imported carbs?

Yes, the pumps have 1/2" outlet. Many of the flow charts I have seen have 3/4" lines for 16 gpm.

 

[Ashful]

Yes, the pumps have 1/2" outlet. Many of the flow charts I have seen have 3/4" lines for 16 gpm.

Certainly can't hurt! Although you'll have trouble finding ports larger than 1/2" on any standard 3.5" or 4" cylinder, and many go for cylinder port-mounted SC valves, so there's only so far you can easily carry the 3/4" lines before hitting some 1/2" restrictions.

I believe I'm running all 1/2" lines on the high-pressure side of my 16 GPM pump overspun by 20% (~19 GPM), with 1" on the suction side. It does run warm, but not noticeably warmer than my memory of the stock configuration. Since I do nearly all my splitting in winter months, I've never complained about any additional heating.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

I just find it interesting that the charts call for one thing and in practice it is totally different.
The suction line on your pump "should" be a minimum of 1.5" according to the nomograph. I wonder if you are getting any cavitation?

 

[Ashful]

I just find it interesting that the charts call for one thing and in practice it is totally different.
The suction line on your pump "should" be a minimum of 1.5" according to the nomograph. I wonder if you are getting any cavitation?

Not that I've noticed, but I'm not sure at what threshold it would be noticeable.

What chart are you looking at? Mine is just a collection of recommended line sizing from popular pump manufacturers.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

I am looking at charts from mfg's, hydraulic system engineers and designers.

 

[Ashful]

I am looking at charts from mfg's, hydraulic system engineers and designers.

Could you post this information?

Every one I've looked at shows 1/2" outlet. Here are just a few of them:

Hydraulic Log Splitter Gear Pump: 2-Stage, 16 GPM

This 2-stage hydraulic pump combines a large displacement low-pressure pump and a small displacement high-pressure pump. It is ideal for use with log splitters, machine tools, trash compactors, and other applications. 16 GPM flow rate 3,000 pressure rating 1/2" shaft diameter 1.5" shaft length...

ruggedmade.com

Amazon product ASIN B0839611JX

Hydraulic Pump Hydraulic Motor 16 GPM Hydraulic Pump For Log Splitter | VEVOR US

Discover Hydraulic Pump Hydraulic Motor 16 GPM Hydraulic Pump For Log Splitter, 2-Stage Log Splitter Pump and Fast ＆ Powerful at lowest price, 2days delivery, 30days returns.

www.vevor.com

Concentric 1002509 $326.04 Pump, Gear, 16 GPM | Zoro.com

Order Concentric Pump, Gear, 16 GPM, 1002509 at Zoro.com. Great prices & free shipping on orders over $50 when you sign in or sign up for an account.

www.zoro.com

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200321055_200321055?utm_source=bing_PPC&utm_medium=NT%20DSA%20Feed&utm_campaign=DSA%20Feed&utm_content=northerntool&cmpid=361481939&agid=1187473442406094&tgtid=dat-2326016848613034:aud-805596653:loc-4120&msclkid=74c9833e76931448d531e01c774cc77c

https://www.grainger.com/product/4F664?gucid=N:N:PS:Paid:MS:CSM-2296:LC5DTN:20500731&gclid=51042d710bd61d66f4ee4e530a094cfa&gclsrc=3p.ds&msclkid=51042d710bd61d66f4ee4e530a094cfa

 

[Isaac Carlson]

I don't think you are understanding what I said. The flow sheets call for a certain size, but the mfg still undersize the pump inlet and outlet. 16 gpm calls for 3/4" lines, but they are 1/2" outlet. The hole in the fitting is much smaller, so the first restriction is right at the pump. The insides of the pumps are even worse. I have ported several pumps, and the insides are horrible. Sharp corners, no ability to flow, and tiny passages. It's crazy.

Like I said, mfg call for certain specs, but then they turn around and choke everything off anyway. I did not port the new pump on my splitter, but I should have. I might do that over winter.

 

[Ashful]

I don't think you are understanding what I said. The flow sheets call for a certain size, but the mfg still undersize the pump inlet and outlet. 16 gpm calls for 3/4" lines, but they are 1/2" outlet. The hole in the fitting is much smaller, so the first restriction is right at the pump. The insides of the pumps are even worse. I have ported several pumps, and the insides are horrible. Sharp corners, no ability to flow, and tiny passages. It's crazy.

Like I said, mfg call for certain specs, but then they turn around and choke everything off anyway. I did not port the new pump on my splitter, but I should have. I might do that over winter.

Understood. But still, could you post your charts? It would be useful information for others.

 

[DonTee]

In regards to porting a pump or getting bigger lines, what exactly does it improve? I can understand if it gives you a faster cylinder cycle or more power, but is it something else like reduced heat? I’m thinking as long as the equipment temp is within the manufacturers specs, who cares what it is.

I understand that operating a pump at a higher temp might shorten its service life, but I bet there’s a minimum temp it should be operated at too. Possibly to keep water contamination out of the hyd fluid?

I’m all for modding and hotrodding things, I just want a good understanding of why I’m doing it.

 

[Ashful]

In regards to porting a pump or getting bigger lines, what exactly does it improve? I can understand if it gives you a faster cylinder cycle or more power, but is it something else like reduced heat? I’m thinking as long as the equipment temp is within the manufacturers specs, who cares what it is.

I understand that operating a pump at a higher temp might shorten its service life, but I bet there’s a minimum temp it should be operated at too. Possibly to keep water contamination out of the hyd fluid?

I’m all for modding and hotrodding things, I just want a good understanding of why I’m doing it.

Especially if failure modes other than number of hours at xx temperature are more likely to be the demise of said pump. I have split 10 - 14 cords each of the last 11 years, and I suspect that even that level of usage is not likely to cause any failure accelerated by operating temperature.

In fact, I'd pose the opposite argument, that elevated temperature may help improve reliability of the entire system, by baking off the inevitable moisture that plauges every infrequently-used hydraulic system.

 

[brenndatomu]

I'd love to see the log splitter that requires 2" hydraulic lines!

 

[DonTee]

@brenndatomu
What do they do with the huge splits? Just curious

Edit: Maybe splitting big diameter pieces small enough to fit onto a firewood processor? Seems like a big expense if that’s the case.

I went to the website for that splitter. They said it splits logs up to 72” diameter and 16’ long into more “manageable” pieces.

 

[brenndatomu]

@brenndatomu
What do they do with the huge splits? Just curious

Edit: Maybe splitting big diameter pieces small enough to fit onto a firewood processor? Seems like a big expense if that’s the case.

I went to the website for that splitter. They said it splits logs up to 72” diameter and 16’ long into more “manageable” pieces.

I dunno...split rail fence?

 

[Isaac Carlson]

All you have to do is google "hydraulic nomogram" or "hydraulic line sizing", I have several apps from hydraulic companies that I use as well.

Google "hydraulic oil temp" and see what it says.

I used my Trelleborg app to find the pressure drop for a restriction at 16 gpm with a specific gravity of 1 and an orifice flow cefficient of .66. You said your lines are 1/4", so I started with .25" and worked my way down to what I felt would be the smallest hole in the fitting. Here is what it says:

Diameter / Pressure drop

.25" 168 psi
.20" 410 psi
.18" 625 psi
.15" 1296 psi

Remember, restrictions add up.

The line itself is what I would consider a significant restriction. The fittings are infinitely worse. I want to know where Jags had his gauge in the system. I have 1/2" lines and mine reads about 75 psi at 11 gpm.

I highly suggest you upgrade to 1/2" lines. It's not just heat we are concerned with. Oxidation is also a factor. Turbulence, high pressure, and heat increase oxidation and break the fluid down faster, contributing to faster pump and cylinder wear. A hydraulic system likes to run right around 120-140° F. Any hotter and the fluid film breaks down, oxidation increases, seals harden, varnishes form, and the fluid burns. The reservoir/system temp is not a good indicator of max fluid temp. The fluid will be the hottest in the pump and in any restrictions. It will get cooled as it touches the cylinder and tank. A reservoir temp of 170 might seem fine, but the fluid could be spiking over 200 in the pump or a restriction, maybe even hotter.

1/2" lines would be a bare minimum.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

In regards to porting a pump or getting bigger lines, what exactly does it improve? I can understand if it gives you a faster cylinder cycle or more power, but is it something else like reduced heat? I’m thinking as long as the equipment temp is within the manufacturers specs, who cares what it is.

I understand that operating a pump at a higher temp might shorten its service life, but I bet there’s a minimum temp it should be operated at too. Possibly to keep water contamination out of the hyd fluid?

I’m all for modding and hotrodding things, I just want a good understanding of why I’m doing it.

I hope my response above helps answer your questions about bigger lines. The cycle time will increase, but it is difficult to say how much and it depends on the system. (Some will say it doesn't change cycle time, but it does, not always by a lot)

Yes, you will have more power because the engine/motor will not be wasting energy just to move the fluid. You could be losing 5hp just to moving the fluid through the lines.

Minimum working temp for hydraulic oil is around 80° F. Most systems will quickly reach this temperature, but in cold environments it is a good idea to let your fluid warm up at idle or just above idle before working the machine. This lets the seals/hoses soften and reduces the load on the pump/motor. Seals and hoses are brittle when cold. The max temp is generally around 140° F, as mentioned above. You should be able to touch the cylinder/valve/lines/pump/tank, etc... and not get burned. My old splitter setup ran hot enough to keep me from touching it. The new pump and increasing the one 3/8" line to 1/2" brought the temp down to about 120° F.

Check out cyclone hydraulics. They make hydraulic tanks that reduce the required volume and prevent the fluid from getting air in it.
I built my reservoir kind of like that. The fluid spins and any air bubbles go to the center and rise to the top. The return oil circulates along the side of the tank for better cooling. I have had this reservoir for many years and it works well, even if oversized. I could probably use a reservoir of about 1.5-2 gallons instead of 5, but that's what I had on hand. If I redo it, I will make it smaller. If you need a large volume of oil to keep temps down, something is wrong.

 

[Ashful]

Thanks, Isaac. To be clear, since your post #173 was in response to my questions, I am not running 1/4" lines. Mine are 1/2" on high pressure side, and 1" on low pressure side. But yes, Don has 1/4" on high pressure side.

My system does not run so hot that I cannot touch it. I would guess (from feel) that it holds around 120°F in nice weather, and cooler than that on a cold day. I would guess the pump itself is several degrees warmer than this, it's not mounted in a position where I'm randomly touching it to know, but also likely under 140°F due to the temperature of the fluid moving thru it.