4 way wedge on home build splitter

[Ashful]

Many cylinders and valves are ported NPT, and as already noted, measure roughly 1/4” over named (IPS) size in sizes up to 1”, when measuring the thread OD. But just as many are ported ORB or JIC, even occasionally ORFS or either flavor of BSP, and it’s important to know which is which. Spend a few minutes on the McMaster Carr web site, or even Google images, to familiarize yourself with identification. An hour of research here will make your job much easier, and benefit you on future projects, as well.

Learn these three basic types well: JIC, NPT, and ORB. Once you know these three most common well enough, anything you see that’s not one of these three will be easier to identify.

Send any questions you have, I’ve spent my entire life in plumbing, of various sorts.

 

[Ashful]

Oh, almost forgot, I measured some metal for you today. The mounting tangs on the Speeco 4” 22-ton cylinder are 5/16”, and there’s a pair of them straddling a 3/4” mounting plate, as I showed in last night’s photos. Seeing as 4” is 30% more cross section (= force, at given pressure) than 3.5”, you should be fine with a pair of 1/4” tangs on that cylinder.

 

[DonTee]

Ok thanks for the info. My only hydraulic experience with this kind of stuff is with changing hydraulic hoses on my tractor loader. And that’s just taking the hose down to the shop and asking for one just like it. Haha.

And I changed a cylinder on a backhoe once. I remember the cylinder I got had SAE ports and the original one had NPT ports. Or something like that. I had to buy an adaptor.

I have some knowledge of hydraulic systems on commercial aircraft (think B757, B767 etc) because that’s what I work on. But, it’s mostly description/operation. I’m avionics, so I have to know how it works, but if an elevator PCU goes bad for example, I might have to troubleshoot and then tell the mechanics to change it out. So I never get to actually remove or install hydraulic components.

 

[DonTee]

I figure I’ll have to change out all the components on this splitter eventually. I changed the engine last year, and now the cylinder this year. Next will be the pump and control valve.

 

[Jags]

So looking at the pump on my splitter, they used reducers to go down from the 1/2” ports, to whatever is on there now. It’s around 1/4” ID.
If at some point I replaced the lines and fittings with 1/2”, could I pick up any cycle speed?

View attachment 298874

Highly unlikely
Reduced fittings or hoses will do two things:
1. Increase pressure (not flow, but pressure)
2. Pressure equals heat

Fluid does not compress. The output of your pump at a given engine RPM will stay the same unless
A. The increased pressure causes the engine/pump to slow down (reducing pump output) or
B. The increased system pressure causes the pump to switch over to the slower high pressure side (reducing pump output)

Two speed hydraulic pumps are a positive displacement pump. You stop flow and something breaks.
To recap: reduced fittings will increase pressure and temps, but will not reduce flow.

I am not trying to sound combative in any way. This is just one of the most basic rules of fluid dynamics. And I don’t make the rules...I just enforce them.

 

[DonTee]

What do you guys think about this pump and control valve? Cheap crap? It would be 165$ with shipping. It’s cheaper than alot of other pumps online I’ve looked at.

When I change the pump out on this splitter I want to add a hydraulic filter also. It doesn’t have one right now. Actually the current pump and reservoir are all one unit. So if I replace the pump I’ll have to get a new reservoir also probably. My current reservoir is around 5 gallons.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

I would give the pump/valve a try. With prices right now, you'd be around $500+ for the same setup from another mfg.

Guys, DonTee is not the one who is going to be welding this up.
The tabs on a speeco cylinder are under compression, not tension. The stresses are very different and the weld quality is much more important under tension. Have your welder use at least the same thickness as what is already there, which looks to be at least 3/8". He should also add a gusset to the front side of the vertical rear plates. He should know what to do, but it's not a bad idea for you to know too.

You can absolutely gain speed in a hydraulic circuit by increasing line size if it is restrictive enough. Pumps leak internally and rpm drops from load. I have seen substantial improvements from going up in line/port size on different applications. It will show more with a used pump, but it is there.

I prefer 45° fittings over 90° fittings, when appropriate.

 

[Ashful]

What do you guys think about this pump and control valve?

We're too many pages into this for me to remember, but what's your engine HP or displacement? You'll want at least 8 hp / 300 cc to drive 16 GPM.

I remember the cylinder I got had SAE ports and the original one had NPT ports.

Probably not, but a common mistake. SAE is generally not used in hydraulics, but JIC is, and the two (despite being incompatible) look very similar. I think they even use the same thread, in some sizes, but the flare angle is different (37° vs. 45°, IIRC). The good news is that if your hose shop does nothing by hydraulics, they don't even have SAE on the shelf, and are used to handing out JIC's when folks ask for SAE.

Two speed hydraulic pumps are a positive displacement pump. You stop flow and something breaks.

Great post, Jags. All good info. But don't all hydraulic splitter pumps have a bypass? If restricted, first it will kick to low gear (eg. from 16 GPM to 4 GPM would be typical). if there's a complete stoppage, I believe most of them have an overpressure valve (OPV) that will open to bypass, and prevent the whole thing from grenading.

 

[DonTee]

@Ashful
I just checked my Amazon orders to see what cylinder I bought for the backhoe. It is made by Magister. The ports are listed as SAE. And now I remember going to the hydraulic shop and them not having a fitting for it. I had to order them online.

This is the one I got. The ports are listed as SAE 6. The cylinder I took off had regular NPT ports I believe.

 

[DonTee]

And yes I have an 8hp Honda engine on the splitter.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

The kick down is in the pump. The pressure relief is in the valve. That is how a hydraulic system can run different pressures for different cylinders, motors, etc...

 

[Ashful]

@Ashful
I just checked my Amazon orders to see what cylinder I bought for the backhoe. It is made by Magister. The ports are listed as SAE. And now I remember going to the hydraulic shop and them not having a fitting for it. I had to order them online.

This is the one I got. The ports are listed as SAE 6. The cylinder I took off had regular NPT ports I believe.

View attachment 298899

So, not to add to the confusion, but when you initially said “SAE”, I had assumed you meant the 37 degree flare commonly called SAE. But what you actually have there is AN-6 ORB, which I mentioned as one of the three types you should memorize in post #126. I have not seen them labeled “SAE O-Ring Boss” before, but I guess that’s technically correct, if ORB is a standard defined by the Society of Automotive Emgineers.

But ORB is quite common, and your hydraulics shop should have had them, unless calling it SAE just threw them off. You’d normally fit that cylinder with ORB to JIC fittings, like these:

AN -6 Male To AN -6 ORB 9/16"-18 Thread Male O-Ring Port 45 Degree Steel Fittings 2061-6-6S - Kartek Off-Road

AN -6 Male To AN -6 ORB 9/16"-18 Thread Male O-Ring Port 45 Degree Steel Fittings 2061-6-6S for a sandrail, rock Crawler, KOH, Ultra4, truck, UTV, side-by-side, dune buggy, mini buggy, manx, king of the hammers, 4x4, or Jeep

www.kartek.com

 

[Jags]

The first cylinder I had on my small splitter was a 3.5” with 3/8” ports. I ran a 16 gpm pump powered by a 14.5 hp engine. It ran a no load pressure of less than 50 PSI (lowest reading on the gauge I had in the system). So basically about the same as your garden hose. 50 PSI isn’t going to bother a system designed for 2500-3000 PSI. If hose or fittings get upsized because of component upgrades then go for it. Changing stuff to reduce no load pressure from 50 psi to 25 psi (or whatever) isn’t gonna gain you much. And if your pump has enough bypass from wear that you can visually see a slow down, change the pump. That sucker is plumb wore out.

Ashful - most two stage pumps rely on a pressure relief valve somewhere else in the system (usually the control valve) hence the name “log splitter control valve”. I have seen other industrial applications with a relief on the pump, but not so much on the two stage stuff. That said, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.

 

[DonTee]

I probably confused the guy at the hydraulic shop by using the wrong terminology. But it’s weird because I had the cylinder with me too. Maybe that particular guy wasn’t the normal guy who deals with the hydraulic stuff.
It’s just a small hardware store that also happens to make hydraulic hoses etc.

The fittings I eventually got online had orings on them.

Hey so what do you guys think about the reducer fittings and pressure. I need some fittings to reduce my ports on the cylinder down so the 1/4” lines can fit on it. So it would be 1/2” npt down to 1/4” flare. Can I get away with brass fittings here? They have some rated for 1500 psi.

 

[Ashful]

You can reduce with NPT bushings. McMaster-Carr sells them at the required pressure ratings, generally steel. You will not be helping your cycle time, but as Jags already argued, the hit may not be that significant at 16 GPM.

You will have trouble finding reducers for anything after transition from NPT, though. Makers of hydraulic-specific fittings (eg. JIC and ORB) don't generally offer reducers.

 

[DonTee]

I think what I’m looking for is called a bushing. It has 1/2” male pipe thread on one side, and 1/4” female pipe thread on the other. Then I can thread in the fittings that came out of the old cylinder (1/4” male thread and 1/4” male flare).

 

[hedge wood]

A good place to buy and look at the different hyd fitting out there is Surplus Center.com.

 

[DonTee]

Surplus center is great. That’s where I got the last fittings I needed.

I was hoping to find them locally this time, but surplus center has them for 1.85$ each. Rated to 3000 psi.

 

[Ashful]

You can reduce with NPT bushings.

I think what I’m looking for is called a bushing.

Yep.

$12 in stainless or $2.89 in zinc on steel, from McMaster. Item numbers 4443K752 and 4513K344, respectively.

BTW, I was correct in pointing out the incompatibility between JIC and SAE flare fittings above, but did mistakenly reverse the spec on the angles. I was doing a bunch of propane work last week (all 45-degree), and had that stuck in my head.

 

[DonTee]

This is the fitting that went on the old cylinder. The pipe thread end is 1/4”. What size is the other end? And is that end JIC?

 

[DonTee]

I don’t know about the JIC fittings, but the flared side looks like a 6 AN fitting to me.

 

[Ashful]

That looks like NPT to JIC. Your mention of AN may appear to muddy the waters some, but not as much as you'd think. First, the definitions:

AN = "Army Navy"
JIC = "Joint Industry Council" (or something like that... look it up)
SAE = "Society of Automotive Engineers"

These are just three different governing bodies that define standards for fittings, many of which are compatible or even identical.

It used to be that AN and JIC fittings were both 37 degree flare, and I believe most sizes were considered compatible, with respect to our normal non-military applications. It used to be that SAE fittings were 45 degrees, and this is why so much documentation lists them as incompatible with JIC or AN. With respect to stuff you're going to see at home or on the farm, JIC is classically used in hydraulics, AN in fuel delivery systems (think Joe Bob's tubbed and tubed 8-second Hemi Cuda), and SAE in propane.

But because the SAE just loves confusing the world and perpetually re-justifying their existence, now they've released a new "SAE-37" specification, which references indicate is compatible with JIC and AN. Just to keep you on your toes, I guess.

Other than trying to measure or eyeball the flare angle, the easiest way to tell the difference between the "regular" SAE-45 fittings you'll find in the hardware store or propane supply, and the JIC (or AN) fittings you'll find in a proper hydraulics shop, is thread size. The AN-6 or JIC-6 for hydraulics has a 9/16-18 UN thread, and the SAE-6 has a 5/8-18 UN thread. Grab some calipers, and just measure the thread OD, to confirm identity.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

Just weld 'em in and call it a day, lol.

 

[DonTee]

I think I’m more familiar with the AN stuff because of work. Good to know all the different types and what they’re called

I was looking online last night and it seems like they call JIC 6 also 3/8 JIC. So I can find a 1/2” male npt to 3/8 male JIC hydraulic fittings for 2$ each from the surplus site. Plus 8$ shipping. Or I think I saw those fittings at TSC for 6$ each in the hydraulic fitting section. The only issue are the ones at TSC do not have a pressure rating on the package.

 

[Ashful]

yep. The dash-numbers in AN and JIC are both sixteenths of an inch, so -6 is indeed 3/8".

WRT pressure, if it's a steel fitting actually labeled "JIC", you should be fine for your application. In fact, I don't think you'll find a steel JIC fitting in the -6 size under 3000 psi. Google's your friend, but I think you'll find most are actually rated 5000 psi in those smaller sizes.

The same cannot be said if it's labeled only AN or SAE, as there are lower pressure options in both of those systems, especially the aluminum AN's. And as always, pressure rating drops with size, even JIC's are only typically rated 1000 psi up at the 2" size. Of course, I'd love to see the log splitter that requires 2" hydraulic lines!