2023/24 VC Temperature discussion thread

[arnermd]

It is amazing what you can fined here.. There is so much information.. Some of the ideas people get.. who would of thought of boiling it.. Im interested in how this idea came about

I have 3.5 acres here so not nearly enough to hunt.... We do have a few doe wander through the yard a couple times a week. Not very big though, you could plunk one from my deck.....

 

[Highbeam]

Just out of curiosity.. How did you come up with the idea of boiling the cat to extend life. Did you read this somewhere. Did this come up from another member or different forum..

The vinegar boil directions have been provided by both BK and Woodstock. I thought from the catalyst manufacturer too. I don’t remember exactly.

It was a dead cat so nothing to lose.

It worked but only for a few months so not worth doing again unless you can’t get a new cat for some reason.

I’m not going to be spraying acid into my stove so the spray bottle method is a no go for me.

 

[DullAxe]

I have 3.5 acres here so not nearly enough to hunt.... We do have a few doe wander through the yard a couple times a week. Not very big though, you could plunk one from my deck.....

Sounds like our place. We have five acres and the deer wander through all the time. Two does this morning with a yearling, yesterday a young four point buck.

 

[DullAxe]

I finally managed to get the cat to jump up to 1227 degrees last night with a larger load. I was getting concerned that I'd killed the cat since it was typically only getting up to around 800-900. But as I'm using compressed logs there aren't a significant number of coals, so last night I added some seasoned wood and finally got the temps up...whew.

This afternoon my son and I were out splitting some douglas fir with the log splitter - filling up the supply for next year.

 

[arnermd]

I have had some burns recently that will not go over 1000..... Not sure why, the next load will go to 1500.....

Steady at 1100 - 1300 is perfect in my opinion..... Nirvana.

In your case it may be the compressed logs burn cleaner so less fuel for the cat? I am just guessing here.

 

[JohnDaileyNH]

Sounds like our place. We have five acres and the deer wander through all the time. Two does this morning with a yearling, yesterday a young four point buck.

I'm on 2 but back up to 500 acres of conservation. Lots of wildlife

 

[DullAxe]

I have had some burns recently that will not go over 1000..... Not sure why, the next load will go to 1500.....

Steady at 1100 - 1300 is perfect in my opinion..... Nirvana.

In your case it may be the compressed logs burn cleaner so less fuel for the cat? I am just guessing here.

You might be right about the compressed logs burner cleaner as they have extremely low moisture content (somewhere around 2% if I remember correctly). Tonight I again got it to engage the cat and the temps climbed slowly up to 1227 over an hour and a half - they're coasting now at around 1150. Definitely much better. Compressed logs with a bit of seasoned wood seems to help with the base of coals. A reload of a compressed log and some dry douglas fir bark kicked it over the top.

 

[DullAxe]

I'm on 2 but back up to 500 acres of conservation. Lots of wildlife

View attachment 318093 View attachment 318094 View attachment 318095 View attachment 318096

Nice! Those look like some healthy coyotes. What's the last picture of - is that a bobcat?

 

[arnermd]

You might be right about the compressed logs burner cleaner as they have extremely low moisture content (somewhere around 2% if I remember correctly). Tonight I again got it to engage the cat and the temps climbed slowly up to 1227 over an hour and a half - they're coasting now at around 1150. Definitely much better. Compressed logs with a bit of seasoned wood seems to help with the base of coals. A reload of a compressed log and some dry douglas fir bark kicked it over the top.

Sound perfect.... what stove are you running?

P.S. add your stove model number to your signature line so we all know what you are running.

 

[JohnDaileyNH]

Nice! Those look like some healthy coyotes. What's the last picture of - is that a bobcat?

It is a bobcat. My dog is 40 lbs and was out with me when we saw the coyotes. I'd say those were at least 50 lbs.

 

[GrumpyDad]

It is a bobcat. My dog is 40 lbs and was out with me when we saw the coyotes. I'd say those were at least 50 lbs.

Where I live Coyotes are SoS. (Shoot on Sight). When the leaves drop (about a week ago) it sounds like ww3 around me as the locals get visibility of their land. Then they take a week or so pause as deer season leads in as to not scare the deer away, then it's back to ww3 for awhile until the thick of winter sets in. There seems to be zero impact to their population, and if anything they seem to be growing in numbers. I have no interest in participating in such activities, but I guess I would have to if they started getting too comfortable with coming up to the residences.

 

[JohnDaileyNH]

Where I live Coyotes are SoS. (Shoot on Sight). When the leaves drop (about a week ago) it sounds like ww3 around me as the locals get visibility of their land. Then they take a week or so pause as deer season leads in as to not scare the deer away, then it's back to ww3 for awhile until the thick of winter sets in. There seems to be zero impact to their population, and if anything they seem to be growing in numbers. I have no interest in participating in such activities, but I guess I would have to if they started getting too comfortable with coming up to the residences.

Fun fact coyotes self regulate their population. So when people shoot them they multiply faster. So SoS only makes the coyote population grow at a higher rate. It would be best to let them be

 

[GrumpyDad]

Fun fact coyotes self regulate their population. So when people shoot them they multiply faster. So SoS only makes the coyote population grow at a higher rate. It would be best to let them be

That matches my observations. Very interesting. Yet twenty years ago we had none. So that's odd too. Or we just weren't aware of them.

 

[AsylumResident]

@arnermd what do you use to measure your draft?

 

[sargeott]

@arnermd Yes, I second the above question.
How do you measure draft?!

 

[arnermd]

I have a Dwyer digital manometer. I insert it into the exhaust stack about 18" above the stove top.

The Dwyers are pretty pricey, I am sure you can find something cheaper on Amazon.....

For those who want to spend nothing, you can make your own slant tube manometer with a piece of tubing, a scale and some cardboard. You will need to measure carefully as the pressures we are talking about are tenths of inches of water, or less....

 

[AsylumResident]

I have a Dwyer digital manometer. I insert it into the exhaust stack about 18" above the stove top.

The Dwyers are pretty pricey, I am sure you can find something cheaper on Amazon.....

For those who want to spend nothing, you can make your own slant tube manometer with a piece of tubing, a scale and some cardboard. You will need to measure carefully as the pressures we are talking about are tenths of inches of water, or less....

I have a magnehelic gauge, we use them for work. What do you insert into the stack? They have temperature limits, mine is limited to 140 dF. Did you drill a hole for it?

 

[arnermd]

Magnahelics should work if the range is low enough.

I used a 2' piece of copper tube, I think it was 1/8" od, then I connect it to some rubber hose then the gage. Does not have to be copper, I just had some laying around. Any metal tubing will work. Steel would actually be better as it is lower thermal conductivity....

You are not flowing through the hose or the gage, it is stagnant flow, so you just need the copper tube to be long enough so it acts like a fin and rejects the heat from conduction to the air. It should not get hot, as long as the metal length is long enough. Also because it is stagnant flow it does not have to be very large in diameter. I inserted the metal tube with no hose attached, let it sit for 1/2 an hour and then made sure the end was not getting hot before I attached the rubber hose.

Insertion point was a screw hole at one of my pipe joints, I just took the screw and stuck the tube in. I measure with it normal to the flow ~center of the stove pipe.

 

[AsylumResident]

Magnahelics should work if the range is low enough.

I used a 2' piece of copper tube, I think it was 1/8" od, then I connect it to some rubber hose then the gage. Does not have to be copper, I just had some laying around. Any metal tubing will work. Steel would actually be better as it is lower thermal conductivity....

You are not flowing through the hose or the gage, it is stagnant flow, so you just need the copper tube to be long enough so it acts like a fin and rejects the heat from conduction to the air. It should not get hot, as long as the metal length is long enough. Also because it is stagnant flow it does not have to be very large in diameter. I inserted the metal tube with no hose attached, let it sit for 1/2 an hour and then made sure the end was not getting hot before I attached the rubber hose.

Insertion point was a screw hole at one of my pipe joints, I just took the screw and stuck the tube in. I measure with it normal to the flow ~center of the stove pipe.

I have noticed that I can't find an ideal pressure for draft in my manual. What range are you typically trying to stay in?

 

[arnermd]

Ahhhh..... that's the million dollar question..... I do not have a real good answer.

See this thread here from last year.

If memory serves (don't hold me to this):

• I was trying to keep it under .075 iwc.
• I added a "seal" around my key damper so I could really clamp down on the draft. I only close it down when I get into an over-fire event.
• In case you do not know draft is highly variable, it is all over the place depending on conditions:
  • Outside air temp, exhaust gas temp, firing rate, wind, flue dia, house leakiness etc....
• My manual does not give a recommended draft level either but there is an Encore 2040 install manual that does.... 0.03 - 0.065 IWC

So.... once you have a working setup lets compare readings under various conditions and see if we can correlate high / low draft readings with cat over-fire events....

When we compare readings we should note:

• Outside air temp
• Stack gas temp (can you read yours? If not skin temp might work)
• Air setting (0% to 100%)
• Cat temp
• Burn cycle (early, mid, late)
• Bypass damper position (cat engaged or bypassed)

You want to get readings when temps are stabilized and the stack has reached op temp.

I am thrilled to have a fellow Defiant operator I can compare too.... this is going to be fun.

 

[AsylumResident]

Ahhhh..... that's the million dollar question..... I do not have a real good answer.

See this thread here from last year.

If memory serves (don't hold me to this):

• I was trying to keep it under .075 iwc.
• I added a "seal" around my key damper so I could really clamp down on the draft. I only close it down when I get into an over-fire event.
• In case you do not know draft is highly variable, it is all over the place depending on conditions:
  • Outside air temp, exhaust gas temp, firing rate, wind, flue dia, house leakiness etc....
• My manual does not give a recommended draft level either but there is an Encore 2040 install manual that does.... 0.03 - 0.065 IWC

So.... once you have a working setup lets compare readings under various conditions and see if we can correlate high / low draft readings with cat over-fire events....

When we compare readings we should note:

• Outside air temp
• Stack gas temp (can you read yours? If not skin temp might work)
• Air setting (0% to 100%)
• Cat temp
• Burn cycle (early, mid, late)
• Bypass damper position (cat engaged or bypassed)

You want to get readings when temps are stabilized and the stack has reached op temp.

I am thrilled to have a fellow Defiant operator I can compare too.... this is going to be fun.

I should be able to get the magnehelic gauge set up later this week. I do have a WiFi data tracker that I can access on my phone to track temps in real time as well as graph the results. Right now it’s limited to two type K thermocouples. I plan to track Cat and STT with a separate reader for flue gas. I don’t have a data tracker for the flue temp but I do have a flue temp thermocouple installed with a reader. I have to find a way to plot other data together like you mentioned above such as outside temps. It appears the VC is a hobby stove so I’m full in on making it a hobby.

 

[AsylumResident]

I have suspected that my door gaskets haven't been sealing properly. When I did the dollar bill test it was questionable at best. I bought new gasket for the doors and installed it on Sunday. On Monday and Tuesday evenings, when I started her up, it took forever to get a fire going. For a cold start typically I would leave the doors cracked open for about 10 minutes to get the fire really going then close the doors and let it burn hotter to get my coal bed going. Now that I've changed out the door gaskets, the last two start ups have taken me almost 45 minutes with the doors cracked open to really get it to catch. If I shut the doors the fire almost completely goes out and yes, primary air is all the way open, I visually checked. Why do I get a new out of the box stove with gaskets that need to be replaced right away? I got the stove in March '23, haven't burned much in it since I got it. But man, talk about a contrast!

 

[arnermd]

I have suspected that my door gaskets haven't been sealing properly. When I did the dollar bill test it was questionable at best. I bought new gasket for the doors and installed it on Sunday. On Monday and Tuesday evenings, when I started her up, it took forever to get a fire going. For a cold start typically I would leave the doors cracked open for about 10 minutes to get the fire really going then close the doors and let it burn hotter to get my coal bed going. Now that I've changed out the door gaskets, the last two start ups have taken me almost 45 minutes with the doors cracked open to really get it to catch. If I shut the doors the fire almost completely goes out and yes, primary air is all the way open, I visually checked. Why do I get a new out of the box stove with gaskets that need to be replaced right away? I got the stove in March '23, haven't burned much in it since I got it. But man, talk about a contrast!

You know you can adjust the clamping force on the front doors? Check your manual, if not.... It is very unusual that door gaskets would need replacement that soon, unless they were not installed correctly. Mine go years before I replace.... but I do periodically adjust the latch, once or twice per season.

I try to never start with the doors cracked, they are either wide open or closed and latched. Too many times I have had them cracked and forgot.... You can also get weird flow patterns where air comes in one door and smoke comes out the other.... Now its either all or nothing. I believe the manual speaks to this, doors should be wide open or fully closed or maybe it says do not operate with one open and one closed.... I can't recall.

Why the dramatic change? My hunch is your new gaskets had taken an initial "set" (maybe from sitting all summer with the doors closed and latched?) and needed an adjustment to the latch. During the off season I do not latch my doors or ashpan and bypass is open so as to avoid the gaskets compressing and taking a set. Not sure if it does any good or not, but that's what I do.

There are also adjustments you make on the hinge side of the door to move them up or down so the gasket seals on the lip, maybe your hinge side bolts were loose and the door was lower than it should have been?

Air leaks can dramatically change how the stove operates it is a fact of life with air tight stoves. Air control and metering is very important. Now you know what an air leak looks like... haha

 

[AsylumResident]

You know you can adjust the clamping force on the front doors? Check your manual, if not.... It is very unusual that door gaskets would need replacement that soon, unless they were not installed correctly. Mine go years before I replace.... but I do periodically adjust the latch, once or twice per season.

I try to never start with the doors cracked, they are either wide open or closed and latched. Too many times I have had them cracked and forgot.... You can also get weird flow patterns where air comes in one door and smoke comes out the other.... Now its either all or nothing. I believe the manual speaks to this, doors should be wide open or fully closed or maybe it says do not operate with one open and one closed.... I can't recall.

Why the dramatic change? My hunch is your new gaskets had taken an initial "set" (maybe from sitting all summer with the doors closed and latched?) and needed an adjustment to the latch. During the off season I do not latch my doors or ashpan and bypass is open so as to avoid the gaskets compressing and taking a set. Not sure if it does any good or not, but that's what I do.

There are also adjustments you make on the hinge side of the door to move them up or down so the gasket seals on the lip, maybe your hinge side bolts were loose and the door was lower than it should have been?

Air leaks can dramatically change how the stove operates it is a fact of life with air tight stoves. Air control and metering is very important. Now you know what an air leak looks like... haha

Before I started burning this fall I checked the doors to see how much adjustment I could get out the them. I did need to adjust the hinge side of both doors to get the gasket to sit on the lip better (maybe that's why the gasket 'set' weird) but the clamping force was already at its most clampiest (that's a word, right?) setting. The only place I could see to adjust that is at the roller on the inside door handle.

I looked through the manual and I can't find where it mentions having the doors open or closed for starting a fire. It does mention not leave the ash pan door open to start a fire.

 

[arnermd]

Before I started burning this fall I checked the doors to see how much adjustment I could get out the them. I did need to adjust the hinge side of both doors to get the gasket to sit on the lip better (maybe that's why the gasket 'set' weird) but the clamping force was already at its most clampiest (that's a word, right?) setting. The only place I could see to adjust that is at the roller on the inside door handle.

I looked through the manual and I can't find where it mentions having the doors open or closed for starting a fire. It does mention not leave the ash pan door open to start a fire.

Clampiest is definitely a word in my vernacular.....

Adjustment is made by loosening the set screw and turning the nut on the center clamp thingy..... sounds like you tried that. Seems hard to believe that did not have enough adjustment.... I have never had that problem. Maybe it was the wrong thickness door gasket?

In my manual it says:
WARNING: Fireplace stoves equipped with doors should be operated only with doors fully open or doors fully closed. If doors are left partly open, gas and flame may be drawn out of of the fireplace stove opening creating risks from both fire and smoke.

My manual also allows for taking the doors completely off.... if you have an 8" flue. Seems like a bad idea..... Maybe in later versions they do not permit operation with doors open period? So it is a non issue? Liability wise I mean. Not sure.