2021-2022 BK everything thread

[kennyp2339]

Whats confusing with epa btu numbers vs real world numbers is when stove companies openly advertise as part of a selling point that the lower btu output is associated with the epa testing using cribbed wood and if you use cord wood you'll see higher btu's, check out 2021 lopi liberty specs, its there in black and white. What I'm trying to say is that is a disadvantage to the customer to take a minimum base line, remove the discipline and bank on the user having a different but better experience with no control source material.

 

[Nealm66]

Thanks. It was loose. I'm really happy with the stove. Keeps the house warm and plenty of coals in the mornings for reload. I was sure when I looked at it the rod was turning. Not just the knob. Next time I'll start out with my glasses on.

Aw man, the clocks on backwards would have made for some good chatter

 

[BKVP]

Whats confusing with epa btu numbers vs real world numbers is when stove companies openly advertise as part of a selling point that the lower btu output is associated with the epa testing using cribbed wood and if you use cord wood you'll see higher btu's, check out 2021 lopi liberty specs, its there in black and white. What I'm trying to say is that is a disadvantage to the customer to take a minimum base line, remove the discipline and bank on the user having a different but better experience with no control source material.

Brochure numbers would have you believe one thing and the narrative of others may try to reinforce that position. However, as I have posted many times, test reports are available for anyone to read and compare. Of course you need to know how to read the reports and the nuances of the different methods. However, as I posted yesterday, M28R, the crib fuel method IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE NOR WAS IT EVER POSITIONED AS SUCH TO REFLECT REAL WORLD EMISSIONS FROM WOOD HEATERS, but it is the most tenured method and also the method that produces results with as little variability as possible. For comparison purposes, here are two stoves, #1 being the PE32. Both tested to M28R. Both use a catalytic combustor. Brochures and some narrative would have you believe the difference is much more than it really is. Efficiency and Btu's taken directly from the test reports. I'd say the differences are insignificant and that is where it's important to have real world input on the performance. But this data demonstrates a pretty level playing field. This is where other features of the stoves come into play, ie. ash capacity, user friendly controls, ease of use & maintenance etc.

 

[Todd]

Looking for input from anyone who has had a princess and a non-cat stove. The princess is a great stove but just a little undersized for me, I'm often running it wide open or waking up to a 55 degree house. I'm considering a PE Alderlea T6, Englander NC30, or Drolet HT300. I'm open to other options also. Currently I can get a good 8 hour burn with the princess when the temps are around 0. Once it dips below zero the stove struggles. Can I expect something better from a non cat stove? The princess will be missed in the shoulder season.

2800 sq ft is asking a lot for any wood stove to heat but if you can stand the looks maybe take a peek at the Woodstock Ideal Steel. It seems to be a well designed hybrid that could possibly give you a little more output on the high end while still giving those nice long burns during the shoulder season. Best of both worlds maybe?

 

[sprawlnstall]

2800 sq ft is asking a lot for any wood stove to heat but if you can stand the looks maybe take a peek at the Woodstock Ideal Steel. It seems to be a well designed hybrid that could possibly give you a little more output on the high end while still giving those nice long burns during the shoulder season. Best of both worlds maybe?

The firebox is slightly bigger, Can anyone explain what hybrid means? The cat also looks easier to get to, I actually like the look, function before fashion.

 

[bholler]

Brochure numbers would have you believe one thing and the narrative of others may try to reinforce that position. However, as I have posted many times, test reports are available for anyone to read and compare. Of course you need to know how to read the reports and the nuances of the different methods. However, as I posted yesterday, M28R, the crib fuel method IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE NOR WAS IT EVER POSITIONED AS SUCH TO REFLECT REAL WORLD EMISSIONS FROM WOOD HEATERS, but it is the most tenured method and also the method that produces results with as little variability as possible. For comparison purposes, here are two stoves, #1 being the PE32. Both tested to M28R. Both use a catalytic combustor. Brochures and some narrative would have you believe the difference is much more than it really is. Efficiency and Btu's taken directly from the test reports. I'd say the differences are insignificant and that is where it's important to have real world input on the performance. But this data demonstrates a pretty level playing field. This is where other features of the stoves come into play, ie. ash capacity, user friendly controls, ease of use & maintenance etc.

View attachment 290938

But would you say it is fair to say that the BTU output of blaze king stoves that are controlled by a thermostat are not as effected by load density and wood species as many others? Of course burn time will be effected drastically but ammout and density of fuel.

I have found in my experience heat output in the noncats I have used was controlled as much by wood species and how I loaded the stove as the air control. But with the bk the heat output doesn't change much with those factors. Just burn time

 

[bholler]

The firebox is slightly bigger, Can anyone explain what hybrid means? The cat also looks easier to get to, I actually like the look, function before fashion.

A hybrid combines a catalytic combustor and some other form of secondary combustion. Usually air tubes

 

[sprawlnstall]

A hybrid combines a catalytic combustor and some other form of secondary combustion. Usually air tubes

would it operate the same way as a blaze king princess?

 

[bholler]

would it operate the same way as a blaze king princess?

No because the princess is thermostatically controlled. I can't think of any hybrids that are

 

[sprawlnstall]

No because the princess is thermostatically controlled. I can't think of any hybrids that are

I see it still has a bypass lever, what would be different when loading the stove? would the stove temp be controlled by a damper?

 

[bholler]

I see it still has a bypass lever, what would be different when loading the stove? would the stove temp be controlled by a damper?

The temp in what stove? But yes almost any stove with a cat will have a bypass. The jotul Oslo v3 is the only one without a bypass

 

[sprawlnstall]

The temp in what stove?

In the ideal steel. After the bypass is engaged how do you control the temp if there is no thermostat dial like the BK

 

[bholler]

In the ideal steel. After the bypass is engaged how do you control the temp if there is no thermostat dial like the BK

With the air intake like most other stoves

 

[BKVP]

But would you say it is fair to say that the BTU output of blaze king stoves that are controlled by a thermostat are not as effected by load density and wood species as many others? Of course burn time will be effected drastically but ammout and density of fuel.

I have found in my experience heat output in the noncats I have used was controlled as much by wood species and how I loaded the stove as the air control. But with the bk the heat output doesn't change much with those factors. Just burn time

Yes, mostly accurate. The species is a bit tricky. While the Btu's are the same for a pound of biomass, you can get more pounds of hardwoods into a firebox than let's say pine. Therefore more pounds x btu's means more Btu's in the firebox. Otherwise, I think you are correct.

 

[Highbeam]

I see it still has a bypass lever, what would be different when loading the stove? would the stove temp be controlled by a damper?

The IS is a really good stove. It's fairly inexpensive, welded steel, capable of very long (almost princess long) burn times, and makes excellent marks for efficiency and low emissions. The catalyst access is superior to the princess. People that own them almost all love them. One irritating drawback is that the IS requires a hearth insulation level where the princess allows ember protection only.

Operation is just like the princess except the intake air control is not thermostatic so you have to manually set it like you would with all stoves other than BK.

Sure it is 3.2 cubic feet compared to the 2.9 princess but woodstock has been known to exaggerate this measurement and the top of the stove is heavily angled which prevents a complete fill unless you chuck the top few pieces in sideways. I would just call them similarly sized. The secondary air feed on the IS does not use tubes but a perforated stainless steel roof.

You will need to deal with shipping to your house and no local dealer. Maybe no big deal but you should be aware.

 

[bholler]

Yes, mostly accurate. The species is a bit tricky. While the Btu's are the same for a pound of biomass, you can get more pounds of hardwoods into a firebox than let's say pine. Therefore more pounds x btu's means more Btu's in the firebox. Otherwise, I think you are correct.

Yes I get that difference between hard wood and soft wood. But in your stoves where the stove temp is controlled by the thermostat isn't most of that BTU content translated into longer burn time instead of more BTU output?

 

[stoveliker]

Yes I get that difference between hard wood and soft wood. But in your stoves where the stove temp is controlled by the thermostat isn't most of that BTU content translated into longer burn time instead of more BTU output?

yes; because the thing that controls the process (Tstat) has only one input: temperature. It keeps that the same. Hence if more energy goes in, and temps are kept the same, then the time to liberate that energy from the fuel will be longer.

 

[stoveliker]

The IS is a really good stove. It's fairly inexpensive, welded steel, capable of very long (almost princess long) burn times, and makes excellent marks for efficiency and low emissions. The catalyst access is superior to the princess. People that own them almost all love them. One irritating drawback is that the IS requires a hearth insulation level where the princess allows ember protection only.

Operation is just like the princess except the intake air control is not thermostatic so you have to manually set it like you would with all stoves other than BK.

Sure it is 3.2 cubic feet compared to the 2.9 princess but woodstock has been known to exaggerate this measurement and the top of the stove is heavily angled which prevents a complete fill unless you chuck the top few pieces in sideways. I would just call them similarly sized. The secondary air feed on the IS does not use tubes but a perforated stainless steel roof.

You will need to deal with shipping to your house and no local dealer. Maybe no big deal but you should be aware.

I have to say that my BK Chinook also has an "irritating" design issue regarding the firebox.
In the middle of the width of the box is the cat sticking down. That's fine. But on the sides the air tubes (supply to airwash) are angled, and they are down in the back.
So, the top is not "level" and one can't say "ok, less N/S loading because I get in trouble on the sides in teh back because of the tubes - let's instead put a thinner piece E/W on top in the front" - because the cat housing is there.

I understand the cat housing *has* to be there (...), but I'd have liked very much if the air supply tubes would have been horizontal, rather than sloping up from back to front. I.e. if they would have been a little higher in the back.
Now there is a lot of space lost because of the 3 low points: back left and right, and front middle.

But then I do recognize I'm talking about only a thin layer of small splits that I'm missing, and if I would be able to put those in, I'll find another gripe where I want to add one more split, and it just can't be done.

I guess that's why they made the King.

(still, I hope the design engineers take note of this remark ...)

 

[bholler]

yes; because the thing that controls the process (Tstat) has only one input: temperature. It keeps that the same. Hence if more energy goes in, and temps are kept the same, then the time to liberate that energy from the fuel will be longer.

So because of that the EPA BTU ratings of a thermostatically controlled stove will not be as effected by the low density load of the EPA testing as non thermostatic stoves right?

By the way I am in no way saying this is any problem with blaze kings. Or implying that they are in some way cheating the test or being misleading

 

[stoveliker]

So because of that the EPA BTU ratings of a thermostatically controlled stove will not be as effected by the low density load of the EPA testing as non thermostatic stoves right?

By the way I am in no way saying this is any problem with blaze kings. Or implying that they are in some way cheating the test or being misleading

You need to specify what "BTU rating".
*Max*? Sure the max won't be not much different with that test method, I think (if enough wood is loaded) - b/c the thermostat essentially sets some kind of a max to the output, see "no overfiring" statements.

BTU output *total* from a load of fuel should not matter between the two stoves; it's measured and integrated over time (and is simply a "fuel in and efficiency percentage" matter).

Basically, I'm saying that a non-Tstat stove will have more of a peak in output. That equates to a higher max. It is less possible to "crank" a BK Tstat stove to such a max.

I find such "max" values less interesting in what I want from a stove, though.
In the end (as you have noted) it's how long a stove can keep the home comfortable (to me).

 

[bholler]

You need to specify what "BTU rating".
*Max*? Sure the max won't be not much different with that test method, I think (if enough wood is loaded) - b/c the thermostat essentially sets some kind of a max to the output, see "no overfiring" statements.

BTU output *total* from a load of fuel should not matter between the two stoves; it's measured and integrated over time (and is simply a "fuel in and efficiency percentage" matter).

Basically, I'm saying that a non-Tstat stove will have more of a peak in output. That equates to a higher max. It is less possible to "crank" a BK Tstat stove to such a max.

I find such "max" values less interesting in what I want from a stove, though.
In the end (as you have noted) it's how long a stove can keep the home comfortable (to me).

Yes absolutely the overall BTU output across the whole burn won't change much.

 

[jdonna]

Do you really think I don't know exactly what my draft is??? I don't have a taller stack. My draft is setup to be spot on at about 25 degrees outside. Slightly high when it gets down in single digits.

This was not meant to be directed at you saying you don't know what your draft is. It was an add on to the converstation of "Can't get a decent burn time on High." I'm trying to convey to members, especially new ones that setups are different as are weather conditions.

For Newer BK members:
There are so many variables on performance, how full you load, moisture content of the fuel, species of fuel, how long you char the load, amount of coals on reload, catalytic condition, gaskets in good condition, thermostat setting, outside air temp and draft/stack temp, coupled with overall chimney design.

On our particular setup monitoring draft and stack temps, running on high is 2x-3x the rate it should be and the flames and heat are out the front and up the stack. If I control draft more in line to the specs, the heat and flame shifts further back more directed at the where the thermostat is located and it regulates much better.

Here's a good read for anyone interested on technicals of chimneys:

(broken link removed)

 

[jdonna]

The IS is a really good stove. It's fairly inexpensive, welded steel, capable of very long (almost princess long) burn times, and makes excellent marks for efficiency and low emissions. The catalyst access is superior to the princess. People that own them almost all love them. One irritating drawback is that the IS requires a hearth insulation level where the princess allows ember protection only.

The earlier production IS had some issues with the cat sled warping and the firebox door opening cracking, but WS fixed the one effected and have seemed to corrected it in current production. It's a fun place to tour and see their facility, a lot of pride in their workmanship.

We were going to go from the fireview to a progress or IS but went the direction of BK princess due to the thermostat and single air input, works out better in our particular setup.

We are fortunate to have some choices of excellent stoves and manufactures!

 

[Highbeam]

The earlier production IS had some issues with the cat sled warping and the firebox door opening cracking, but WS fixed the one effected and have seemed to corrected it in current production. It's a fun place to tour and see their facility, a lot of pride in their workmanship.

We were going to go from the fireview to a progress or IS but went the direction of BK princess due to the thermostat and single air input, works out better in our particular setup.

We are fortunate to have some choices of excellent stoves and manufactures!

Oh BKs aren't perfect either. I've seen cracked door openings, holes corroded through the body, and other damage that may or may not have been caused by "abuse" but those are very rare.

The IS, if you can handle the looks and direct buy issue, is a really high performance stove. Less draft sensitive than the BK too if you can't handle the occasional whiff of smoke.

Either would be a great investment from great companies.

 

[mewop]

I have a new KE40 that I started using one year ago. The door hinge I noticed was wearing with each open and close. It initially needed a bit of pushing in on the handle to close it as it was a bit snug. I did not adjust the nut from the factor - the door was already installed on the pallet when I received it. The handle now swings down very easily and I'm afraid the gasket is not going to seal well after another mm or two loss of handle thickness. The dollar test is still fine, but it's not farm from needing to adjust the nut to increase the door tension. Is this normal wear for the handle? It does seem like a soft metal. I've tried pressing on the door a bit so the contact is not as abrasive with each open and close but the nature of the mechanism there will always be friction between the two.
I have a flat ruler in front of where the hinge contacts to show the eroded metal in the photo.
The lower portion of this (the 45 degree lower section) has a bit more erosion than the vertical upper section in this photo