Same as non cats, pretty clean at the beginning and cleaner once they're both working.
2019-20 Blaze King Performance Thread Part 1 (Everything BK)
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SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
I would have paid some teenagers to destroy it by now.If you're really worried, you can go up and sniff it.
The Smoke Police would need new underpants if they ever went to check up on my neighbor.Smoke dragon OWB, all green wood, 24x7x365 (because it does his DHW too, so it also runs all summer).
kennyp2339
Minister of Fire
@BKVP I remember towards the end of last season there was some small talk about a new shipment of cats that were suppose to be able to take a higher temp, did anything transpire with that? I only ask because I think there is a performance lag between soft wood and hard woods, just shooting off the hip I've notice my stove is a lot more happier with maple & ash verse red & white oak, please keep in mind that all the wood is floating around 15% moisture content, it just seems that with the slightly softer woods I have a different burning experience then when I use harder woods like oak. With oak i feel as though i need to have the air control stat set to a higher setting to get a white ash burn, verse a lower setting for the maple and ash, but i don't want to prematurely degrade the cat by burning to hot all the time. Or maybe I'm just going crazy here.
BKVP
Minister of Fire
You are going crazy...hopefully just here! To make this 100% clear to all....THERE IS ZERO CHANCE OF A COMBUSTOR WASHCOAT THAT WILL PERMIT FOR HIGHER OPERATING SAFE TEMPERATURES BEYOND 1600F. What is possible however is to have washcoat that will go active faster. We call it B3. There are a few beta testers in USA and Canada. So far, initial reports are they do in fact respond quicker. But they are more reactionary, meaning the temps respond more quickly to all temp changes. Still working on it!
Hmmm... How do I get on that beta test! lol
I cold reload almost everyday except on weekends when its below 30 for the highs.
I cold reload almost everyday except on weekends when its below 30 for the highs.
kennyp2339
Minister of Fire
Thanks for the clarification, and yes, I've been a little tired lately, been working a terrible snow / ice storm up here since Sunday.. 16hr days are taking a toll on me. But what is nice, I load my stove at 5:30am and I'm just below active cat when I come home at 11:30pm.. cant beat that, I just burn a little higher during the night to bring the temp in the house up from 67 to 72 by morning.
I suppose the 1600 max applies to all cats. My VC will occasionally spike (for short periods) to 1650. I must be shortening its life for sure.
Now, I have seen pics here, where some of the BK probes are reading off the scale at around 5:00pm that surly must be over 1600!
i am trying to source out a 3” probe so I can rig up my Auber meter to the Princess, and get an accurate cat readings.
Now, I have seen pics here, where some of the BK probes are reading off the scale at around 5:00pm that surly must be over 1600!
i am trying to source out a 3” probe so I can rig up my Auber meter to the Princess, and get an accurate cat readings.
How far is your cat probe going up? You're not pinning it or close, are you?
Highbeam I think still has a probe with actual temps. Maybe he can give you an approximation if you have an unmarked probe and can only report an "o'clock" position. He's probably compared the two..
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Buy your BK’s two at a time, so you’re ready to compare the new tech to OEM on the same wood and operator. [emoji41]
I’ve been keeping quiet on this the last two years, but since the Veep has let the cat out of the bag... yes, the B3 lights off very quickly, and seems to stay active well past when I think it should. No complaints here, but I hear the price is steep on these.
That said, I think the Ashford OEM SteelCats are fantastic, in most applications. I will almost definitely stick with the steelcat on my stove that is presently running one on the shorter chimney, as long as that remains cheaper. I like running ceramic on the stove with the 30 foot pipe, so I will endeavor to buy another B3 for that stove, should I ever need a replacement.
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jetsam
Minister of Fire
If you have a ceramic cat, go buy a steel cat and slap it in.
Same wash coat as the ceramic but similar effect (the lower thermal mass of the steel cat means it goes active faster and drops out sooner).
Steel does plug more easily, so most people need to vac them out more often.
Also consider changing your operation- most BKs can run 24+ hours on low, putting out low even heat. I've been known to burn through 60 degree days to avoid lighting a fire the next day.
There's nothing wrong with lighting a fire every day if you really want to, but who wants to?
MissMac
Minister of Fire
So is it likely then that a person could have a visible steam plume 4+ hours into a burn, if it’s cold enough outside, even if they’re burning wood that’s 16-18%MC? I’m starting to notice visible emissions from my stack well into the burn, and am trying to figure out if it’s just he drop in temp, or perhaps my cat isn’t eating the smoke as well these days.
I appreciate responses from fella members on this. I would like to hear from @BKVP regarding the plum stuff. Is the testing facility where it does not dip below freezing, so no visible steam etc.
BKVP
Minister of Fire
Depends upon burn rate, MC and outside temps. Purchase a Ringleman chart if you want to gauge opacity.
If a stove is operating at a very low burn rate, it's possible to have steam for hours. First stage of combustion is to rid fuel load of water. Try burning at higher burn rates. If plume diminishes early in burn, you'll have your answer.
Also, remember to lock down bypass for good seal.
I call shenanigans! RIch guys getting freebies is one of the foremost causes of all the problems with the world today.
Right. Instead of burning wide open for half an hour with a load thrown in on a big coal bed, sometimes I light a top-down load and I'll close the bypass as soon as I think I can get a cat light-off. Less than half the wood has been charred, so there's a lot of moisture left in the wood that hasn't. It will cause the stack to steam for hours.
If I could tag on to Chris' ( @BKVP ) response above, wood (technically cellulose) is a hydrocarbon, a long carbon chain with a bunch of hydrogen stuck on it. There are some other bits in there that aren't in crude oil, but when you burn hydrocarbon at 100% efficiency your combustion products are going to be CO2 and H20.
So even after you bake the load down to zero point zero zero percent moisture content, there is still going to steam coming out your stack from combining the hydrogen in the wood with the oxygen in the intake air. That steam is created at +/- 600 dF as part of the combustion process and has to cool down quite a bit before it condenses somewhere after it cools below 212 dF. Maybe two blocks down the street depending on conditions.
In the coaling stage, negligible steam. Charcoal is, or is supposed to be, pure carbon. If you put wood in an airtight retort and cook it you can cook all the hydrogen off the cellulose and get pure carbon. When you burn that your only combustion product will be CO2.
The Ringleman scale is a useful learning tool, you might even find a printable one online. It might be useful in small claims court going up against a pesky neighbor. If you are going up against the EPA the Ringleman won't cut it. Learn on Ringleman, but keep learning.
If you are seriously going to get into this, get a bag of hardwood lump charcoal from the home store. I like the light brown bags that say cowboy on them compared to the bright red bags, but either are adequate. You want to pick through about half a bags worth and pick out all the chunks of bark and all the pieces of charcoal that look like there might be a bit of wood in them. Egg and baseball size pieces will be perfect. Put down a fair bit of newsprint wadded up under the charcoal and run it like a cold start. Once you are up on the combustor, engage and leave the throttle on high.
Go outside and look at your stack plume. You _should_ see nothing but wavy lines of heat. Go back inside and look at your cat probe after the combustor has been engaged for a solid thirty minutes on high. If your charcoal is pure all your smoke is CO2 with no cat food in it. Carbon burns right at 600dF. Where the needle sits is A) 600dF and B) where the needle will stay when you combustor is hungry.
When you get the combustor probe above that spot your cat is eating.
Next do a hot reload with cord wood on your coaling stage charcoal, I think I walked through that one lately, and look at your plume some more.
Honestly I don't worry about the air police too much. I am running clean dry wood in a well maintained catalytic stove. Once I had my wood dry enough for the stove to be easy to operate I had plume opacity well covered. My biggest beef is the 20 minute startup time. I can do it, but I know it is hard on the stove and chimney.
i will take some pics of legal regulated cold start next time I do one.
Also, as BKVP mentioned above I not only have to maintain the stove as a regulated burner, I must lock down the bypass door for good seal, or I have wasted a lot of time getting to that decision gate in the first place.
So even after you bake the load down to zero point zero zero percent moisture content, there is still going to steam coming out your stack from combining the hydrogen in the wood with the oxygen in the intake air. That steam is created at +/- 600 dF as part of the combustion process and has to cool down quite a bit before it condenses somewhere after it cools below 212 dF. Maybe two blocks down the street depending on conditions.
In the coaling stage, negligible steam. Charcoal is, or is supposed to be, pure carbon. If you put wood in an airtight retort and cook it you can cook all the hydrogen off the cellulose and get pure carbon. When you burn that your only combustion product will be CO2.
The Ringleman scale is a useful learning tool, you might even find a printable one online. It might be useful in small claims court going up against a pesky neighbor. If you are going up against the EPA the Ringleman won't cut it. Learn on Ringleman, but keep learning.
If you are seriously going to get into this, get a bag of hardwood lump charcoal from the home store. I like the light brown bags that say cowboy on them compared to the bright red bags, but either are adequate. You want to pick through about half a bags worth and pick out all the chunks of bark and all the pieces of charcoal that look like there might be a bit of wood in them. Egg and baseball size pieces will be perfect. Put down a fair bit of newsprint wadded up under the charcoal and run it like a cold start. Once you are up on the combustor, engage and leave the throttle on high.
Go outside and look at your stack plume. You _should_ see nothing but wavy lines of heat. Go back inside and look at your cat probe after the combustor has been engaged for a solid thirty minutes on high. If your charcoal is pure all your smoke is CO2 with no cat food in it. Carbon burns right at 600dF. Where the needle sits is A) 600dF and B) where the needle will stay when you combustor is hungry.
When you get the combustor probe above that spot your cat is eating.
Next do a hot reload with cord wood on your coaling stage charcoal, I think I walked through that one lately, and look at your plume some more.
Honestly I don't worry about the air police too much. I am running clean dry wood in a well maintained catalytic stove. Once I had my wood dry enough for the stove to be easy to operate I had plume opacity well covered. My biggest beef is the 20 minute startup time. I can do it, but I know it is hard on the stove and chimney.
i will take some pics of legal regulated cold start next time I do one.
Also, as BKVP mentioned above I not only have to maintain the stove as a regulated burner, I must lock down the bypass door for good seal, or I have wasted a lot of time getting to that decision gate in the first place.
Also, re burning hardwood lump charcoal in a woodstove, there will be some CO carbon monoxide in the exhaust stream. Catalytic combustors are supposed to help with that too.
Do NOT use briquettes for this. Some of them are made of pulverized coal, others of pulverized wood. They often add powdered limestone to look like "ash" a the briquette burns done. Plus glues and binders and who knows what else. hardwood lump is the ticket here.
There are a dizzying array of substrates that have been used to catalyse CO to CO2. I did see on the BK site the Ashford 30.2 has a average weighted CO% of 0.18%. In some of the historic automotive literature CO and CO2 were tabulated together as the labs and the gubmint were more interested in oxides of nitrogen and sulfur.
@BKVP what can you tell us about BK combustors converting CO to CO2 without having to kill us later? Does that process generate enough heat in an otherwise starving combustor to move the needle on the indicator? i really don't know the CO/CO2 mix burning hardwood lump charcoal in my Ashford.
However, the boiling point of carbon monoxide is -312.7 dF, the boiling point of CO2 is -109.2 dF. The probability of condensed CO or CO2 being a component of your visible stack plume is essentially zero.
Do NOT use briquettes for this. Some of them are made of pulverized coal, others of pulverized wood. They often add powdered limestone to look like "ash" a the briquette burns done. Plus glues and binders and who knows what else. hardwood lump is the ticket here.
There are a dizzying array of substrates that have been used to catalyse CO to CO2. I did see on the BK site the Ashford 30.2 has a average weighted CO% of 0.18%. In some of the historic automotive literature CO and CO2 were tabulated together as the labs and the gubmint were more interested in oxides of nitrogen and sulfur.
@BKVP what can you tell us about BK combustors converting CO to CO2 without having to kill us later? Does that process generate enough heat in an otherwise starving combustor to move the needle on the indicator? i really don't know the CO/CO2 mix burning hardwood lump charcoal in my Ashford.
However, the boiling point of carbon monoxide is -312.7 dF, the boiling point of CO2 is -109.2 dF. The probability of condensed CO or CO2 being a component of your visible stack plume is essentially zero.
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There will be visible steam in your exhaust plume anytime outdoor ambients are below 212dF.
If your plume is detached, that is a reliable indicator your exhaust gasses are above 212dF because the steam in the plume hasn't cooled off enough to condense yet when it clears the pipe and hits the outside air.
If your plume is attached that is a reliable indicator your exhaust gasses cooled to below 212 dF somewhere inside the pipe. You probably have a little bit of condensed water on the inside of your chimney pipe. Next you'll have bits of carbon sticking to the water droplets. This is a good reason to run your fresh loads on high for 30 minutes - it not only cooks water out of the fresh wood but can possibly dry out your chimney pipe too.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
i believe I got my layman answers.
@Diabel I finally saw your responses inside my quote on the third try. With no wood burners within 1000 yards the smoke you smell is probably yours. I am still not clear where your combustor probe indicator was pointing after the combustor had been engaged for 30 minutes. Mine rotates freely in the hole, I could make the needle point to 2:00 at any specified temperature.
Where was the needle relative to the word "active" in the active zone on you dial?
Where was the needle relative to the word "active" in the active zone on you dial?
Ok, the needle is about 110* west of the active mark. I always make sure that the probe is (lettering) I facing north.
Something roughly like this? I try to keep mine lined up so I can read it easily when standing in front of the loading door.
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