2017-18 Blaze King Performance Thread PART 3 (Everything BK)

[OldSchoolPyro]

8% is really low. is that measured on a fresh split face when it's warmed up, or on the end when its still cold, there is a heck of a difference.

Grabbed a warm chunk and split it. Coming up with 9.1 towards the end and 9.3 in the center and other end
.

 

[OldSchoolPyro]

Oops, doubled up a pic. Here's the other one. This isn't the best meter either... Cheap Amazon one, but I wanted to get an idea of what my wood was at. The wood is super light. Oak chunks are way lighter than you'd expect. Feels like kiln dried dimensional lumber almost. I don't know where it was sourced, or how long it's been seasoning, it was in the woodshed when we moved in.

 

[Ctd92]

Did you do the install yourself or hire someone.
Exterior chimney or interior.
How tall is your liner.
Is your liner insulated.
Do you have a block off plate and insulation.

I did the install
16 foot exterior chimney
insulated liner
The insert is inside of a metal box that used to be a Heatilator fireplace. I cut out just enough for the liner and stuffed if with insulation.

 

[huauqui]

Need help guys. But first some background Last year was my first year with my new blaze King Princess PEJ 1006. Installed it in November 2016. Last spring when I gave it a cleaning I noticed the cat was crumbling. I installed it myself and in so doing I thought maybe it had cracked going down the stairs. So I didn't call Blaze King for a warranty.

I replaced it this fall with a new cat from Firecat. I checked the door with the dollar bill test and decided to tighten it up a bit as it seemed to be okay but not perfect.

On to this season. I have been burning non stop since late October. The stove has been incredible and we have been warm to even hot all winter long. Almost all the wood I have burned this year has been Chinese elm that has been running 14-16% moisture on a fresh split face. The elm produces nice klinkers with great regularity but has worked well.

Late December we had a warm up that allowed me to inspect the chimney and gently brush off the cat and vacuum it carefully. I noted one small chipped off cell on the new cat. Then this last week I looked up into the glowing cat to see pieces pilled up on the flame shield.

I tried to get ahold of firecat and they aren't answering there phone and their email is being rejected and returned. So, I quick ordered a cat from Midwest on Amazon which arrived today. (I will attach a picture of the totally disintegrated cat I removed at the end of this post.)

While messing around cleaning everything tonight, prior to installing the new cat. I set about trying again to see what is going on. I only have two guesses. First, and in my mind less likely, are flames reaching up into and onto the cat face. Second is a cold air leak from the door ether from around the glass or bypassing the main door seal. I checked the glass and it seems really tight. I checked the door for warps or twists and it looks good. Then I looked at the knife edge on the stove that the actual door gasket closes on thus making a seal.

I noticed something weird and will try to describe it and then include pictures that hopefully will show the issue I think I found. The two sides of the door opening seem fine and are flat. However the top and bottom, especially the top seem to have a belly. From the hinge edge to the latch side they are not flat. The top has nearly a full eighth of an inch of out of true and the bottom edge is similar. This, i would assume, causes the seal to be very tight in the middle and weak on both the hinge and latch sides.I also noticed after tightening the door latch substantially that as the latch closes it is as if the top is touching the face of the door and the lower right corner is being drawn in. Again this seems to indicate something is amuck with the trueness of the knife edges that the door seals on.

Is this normal? Could this be my issue? I am at a loss. Please help. I have a new cat but don't feel comfortable running the stove and possibly destroying it too. I have not heard my furnace run yet this winter and really really want the wood stove back running but can't afford a new cat every 4 months.

If that is normal do I just crank the latch down farther trying to get an even tighter seal. I simply don't know what else could be chewing up these cats.

 

[begreen]

Looks like it's time to get the dealer and BK in on a conference call. You are blaming yourself in error.

 

[Ashful]

I can't common on the knife edge straightness, I would think the gasket should conform and make it a non-issue, but it appears your cat is exhibiting cratering. This is usually caused by flame impingement, which might be caused by a leaky door, but could also be caused by excessive draft, loading the stove with small chunks up near the cat, or I'm sure a few other things I haven't considered.

I say cratering, because it appears only the front (flame side) face of the cat is falling apart. This is different from thermal shock failures, which more often cause cracks all the way thru a ceramic combustor. If you pull up the old Jotul Firelight 12 manual online, there's a lengthy discussion of the different combustor failure modes, and their probable causes. There may be other newer/better guides on the subject, but this is the one I know (I used to own that stove).

BKVP does watch this thread, and so he may comment. I'm sure other Princess owners will, as well.

 

[BKVP]

1/8" is within tolerance for welded knife edge seal. Gaskets normally address minimal tolerances.

Give me a call tomorrow. We'll be happy to replace the combustor.

We'll talk over draft, mc and other topics to isolate issue. Make certain glass is secure in door frame as well please.

509-522-2730
5:00 a.m. PST Tuesday is fine.
Chris

 

[huauqui]

Had a great talk with Chris today. Looks like a combination of things from very strong draft to not perfect seal on the door. Chasing a few things and will keep you all up to date.

Thanks again BKVP for your time, help, patience, and the service above and beyond the call. Not only does Blaze king build fantastic stoves but they are great people too!

huauqui

 

[allan5oh]

BKVP how long of a flue do you recommend for Winnipeg mb? 800 feet elevation and cold. Close to 15 ft as possible without going under? King and possibly a Chinook

 

[Poindexter]

BKVP how long of a flue do you recommend for Winnipeg mb? 800 feet elevation and cold. Close to 15 ft as possible without going under? King and possibly a Chinook

The BK dealer in Fairbanks, AK doesn't like going over 30'. We don't get a lot of wind here. I think you got plenty of moving air in Manitoba, only been once.

While you are waiting to hear from BKVP, I would counsel that 15' will get you long low burns in shoulder seasons, beyond that less is more. In below freezing temps you will probably be fine on 13 or 14 feet of stack.

 

[BKVP]

BKVP how long of a flue do you recommend for Winnipeg mb? 800 feet elevation and cold. Close to 15 ft as possible without going under? King and possibly a Chinook

Well for a Chinook 30 sized firebox, we always recommend a minimum of 15'. Often folks read 15' and think that is all that is needed. In some cases that is true, but in a few isolated cases, more chimney is needed.

If you go with the King, I found at my house 18' from stove top to cap was needed for optimal performance. I have less than 1' of solid fuel pipe within the envelope of my home (attic), the remainder is all outside. In as much, it is not protected from the wind.

So to get you the best, most credible answer, you need to consider how much black double wall will be used, how much of the solid fuel pipe will run in attic or other protect spaces, whether there will be elbows or offsets etc.

If you want to get me all those particulars, it would be helpful.

BKVP

 

[allan5oh]

Ok here's the specifics. It's two buildings just outside winnipeg. 800 feet elevation burning dry debarked elm and ash. Both would have outside air.

House - 1300 sq ft bungalow. Princess or Chinook likely the latter. 8 foot walls so probably 5 feet of black pipe them 9 of insulated currently. Maybe of that insulated 3 feet is in the attic. Straight up through the ceiling.

I think right now we have a touch too much draft in the house with our current non cat but we can always make adjustments.

Shop - 1800 sq ft with 16.5 foot walls. We are considering the king with 8" flue. It would be straight up. Here I am concerned about the possibility of too much draft. Not sure how much of the insulated flue would be in the attic but 3 feet is a safe bet. So we could easily be 20+ feet all in.

Double wall would be a little over 13' from top of king (39" high) to the ceiling. One option is to raise the unit. Another is single wall or maybe a damper?

It can hit -30c or colder actual temp here. When it does usually the wind is quite dead. The heat output range of our non cat seems to increase with the cold. As it warms up it tends to get windier.

 

[Ashful]

BKVP can give you better advice than me, but I’ve found a solution with which I’m very happy. In my case, I have a 30 foot masonry stack, into which I installed a blanket-wrapped (insulated) 6” smooth-wall liner, and found it sucked harder than, well... this is a family forum.

Rather than trying to shorten the chimney, which would be impossible in my case, I installed a key damper and a manometer on the stove pipe above the stove. BK calls out .06” WC maximum, on a high burn setting, but also has a note that .05” WC is optimum. It would be tough to hit that range with a fixed chimney height alone, but with that key damper and manometer, I can simply turn the key and adjust it to .05” WC under any weather conditions. It’s beautiful.

Most critically, I use that damper to throttle back draft during startup / bypass. I used to have to close the bypass damper before the cat probe thermometer was even half way up thru the inactive range, to prevent over firing my stovepipe (or those little bypass gasket retainers everyone has talked so much about). But now, with the damper, I benefit from a pleasant gradual start-up cycle, where the cat comes up to full active temperature before my flue probe even shows 600F. It’s a beautiful thing.

Then, I close the bypass, dial key to .05” WC, and let the stove run on high for 30 minutes. I do one last check of the manometer, and adjust the key damper to re-balance at .05” WC, before turning it down 30 minutes later. After that, it just cruises where it will.

So, I’d not worry about having a flue that’s a little too tall. Install a key damper, and give yourself even better flexibility, to nail the optimum draft number in all weather conditions. What I describe might sound like extra work, but it’s so simple that my wife doesn’t even mind it.

 

[BKVP]

Ok here's the specifics. It's two buildings just outside winnipeg. 800 feet elevation burning dry debarked elm and ash. Both would have outside air.

House - 1300 sq ft bungalow. Princess or Chinook likely the latter. 8 foot walls so probably 5 feet of black pipe them 9 of insulated currently. Maybe of that insulated 3 feet is in the attic. Straight up through the ceiling.

I think right now we have a touch too much draft in the house with our current non cat but we can always make adjustments.

I WOULD THINK THIS INSTALL WOULD WORK FINE AS DESCRIBED. IF NEEDED, YOU MAY HAVE TO ADD 2'+ BUT WITH YOUR DESCRIBED DRAFT, MAY NOT BE NECESSARY.

Shop - 1800 sq ft with 16.5 foot walls. We are considering the king with 8" flue. It would be straight up. Here I am concerned about the possibility of too much draft. Not sure how much of the insulated flue would be in the attic but 3 feet is a safe bet. So we could easily be 20+ feet all in.

Double wall would be a little over 13' from top of king (39" high) to the ceiling. One option is to raise the unit. Another is single wall or maybe a damper?

STICK WITH THE DOUBLE WALL. I THINK YOU'LL BE FINE WITH 20'. IF WIND PLAYS A ROLE IN DRAFT IN YOUR AREA, YOU MAY WANT A MORE RESTRICTIVE CAP TO HANDLE THE WIND.

It can hit -30c or colder actual temp here. When it does usually the wind is quite dead. The heat output range of our non cat seems to increase with the cold. As it warms up it tends to get windier.

A MANUALLY CONTROLLED AIR CONTROL CANNOT STOP STACK EFFECT. VISUALIZE A HOLE IN THE BOTTOM OF THE STEEL PLATE, WITH AN ANOTHER PLATE THAT CAN BE MOVED OVER THE HOLE (PARTIALLY) BY USE OF A HANDLE (DAMPER). DUE TO EPA REGULATIONS AND STOVE DESIGNS, THERE IS A MINIMUM AIR SETTING (INLET) THAT REMAINS OPEN. A "DAMPER STOP" KEEPS THAT AREA OPEN TO CONTINUED AIR FLOW FROM BEING COVERED. AND WHILE THE SIZE OF THAT CONTINUAL AIR OPENING DOES NOT INCREASE AS IT GETS COLDER, THE VOLUME OF AIR BEING PULLED THROUGH THAT HOLE INCREASES. THIS CAN RESULT IN OVER FIRING, EXTRA HEAT PRODUCTION AND FUEL BEING CONSUMED QUICKER THAN MAY BE DESIRED. ENTER ALIEN TECHNOLOGY.

 

[BKVP]

BKVP can give you better advice than me, but I’ve found a solution with which I’m very happy. In my case, I have a 30 foot masonry stack, into which I installed a blanket-wrapped (insulated) 6” smooth-wall liner, and found it sucked harder than, well... this is a family forum.

Rather than trying to shorten the chimney, which would be impossible in my case, I installed a key damper and a manometer on the stove pipe above the stove. BK calls out .06” WC maximum, on a high burn setting, but also has a note that .05” WC is optimum. It would be tough to hit that range with a fixed chimney height alone, but with that key damper and manometer, I can simply turn the key and adjust it to .05” WC under any weather conditions. It’s beautiful.

Most critically, I use that damper to throttle back draft during startup / bypass. I used to have to close the bypass damper before the cat probe thermometer was even half way up thru the inactive range, to prevent over firing my stovepipe (or those little bypass gasket retainers everyone has talked so much about). But now, with the damper, I benefit from a pleasant gradual start-up cycle, where the cat comes up to full active temperature before my flue probe even shows 600F. It’s a beautiful thing.

Then, I close the bypass, dial key to .05” WC, and let the stove run on high for 30 minutes. I do one last check of the manometer, and adjust the key damper to re-balance at .05” WC, before turning it down 30 minutes later. After that, it just cruises where it will.

So, I’d not worry about having a flue that’s a little too tall. Install a key damper, and give yourself even better flexibility, to nail the optimum draft number in all weather conditions. What I describe might sound like extra work, but it’s so simple that my wife doesn’t even mind it.

Under Federal Law as per the 2015 New Source Performance Standards (NSPS), a manufacturer cannot suggest or endorse any modifications to the way in which the stove was tested/chimney system. This includes the use of dampers of any sort.

 

[Ashful]

Under Federal Law as per the 2015 New Source Performance Standards (NSPS), a manufacturer cannot suggest or endorse any modifications to the way in which the stove was tested/chimney system. This includes the use of dampers of any sort.

Understood. But I’ll continue to read between the lines, there.

 

[kennyp2339]

Understood. But I’ll continue to read between the lines, there.

Yup, there are prob going to be a lot of back in the 80's or early 90's we use too...

 

[allan5oh]

So as the temperature outside gets colder the stack effect and therefore draft increases?

But what you're implying is the BK thermostat compensates for the stack effect?

I've been really nerding it out lately reading research papers and such. Pyrolysis, flame temperature ( blue is good, bright red is bad) chemical efficiency (Co2 and water is good, CO is bad) etc

Draft is one thing I would like to understand more.

 

[kf6hap]

1Pascal=.00401 "Water Column

 

[allan5oh]

I'm assuming that's at sea level? Those nunbers will go down as altitude increases?

If outside air is -30f that would be a 200 f difference and at 20 feet a draft of .09223. even at the 15 feet the draft would be above spec at 0.06817. The flue would likely be over 20 feet for the king. Options:

1) run lower than 175f exit temp. Single wall pipe maybe? Is this even possible?

2) Run a damper to fine tune the draft when it's colder

3) skip the OAK. bah!

 

[kf6hap]

I would just install it and forget about all the draft stuff. 20' is not extremely high. 30' is but stoves still operate well with but few problems. As countless others have, you will love the way the stove operates. The somewhat tall stack is a benefit when it comes to low burns. My Ashford is 17' and the low burn is fantastic. I am certain you will be very well pleased with your stove's operation. Even with a very strong draw, the thermostat will still control the burn. The thermostat's damper vane is "balanced". Draw will have little/no effect on its position, that is to say it can't be sucked open causing a runaway condition. An extremely tall stack might cause overfire via the EPA hole. I don't know if this even possible.

These are my thoughts on the draft stuff. Over 30 feet, might be a problem.

 

[begreen]

Understood. But I’ll continue to read between the lines, there.

Tested chimney's represent a small example of a 1 story house flue system. The real world has much greater variation that needs to be accounted for. This is somewhat similar to EPA auto emissions testing. They are done under very specific conditions that don't necessarily reflect real world usage.

It's good to have a standard to design to, but it's also good to recognize that the standard is not too helpful without accounting for normal deviations. For example - Altitude does have a direct effect, so can local terrain, house internal pressures, chimney location, etc..

 

[Newburnerwisconsin]

Guys need your help. I am looking at a Ashford 30. I called a BK dealer today and told him about my existing chimney. I have a duravent duratech class a stainless chimney with a six inch flue. The dealer was not sure if a Ashford could be hooked up to that chimney. He was going to call his rep. Should I just give up and look at another stove? Any stoves that would work with that chimney? A hearthstone is on
it now.

 

[Newburnerwisconsin]

The

Guys need your help. I am looking at a Ashford 30. I called a BK dealer today and told him about my existing chimney. I have a duravent duratech class a stainless chimney with a six inch flue. The dealer was not sure if a Ashford could be hooked up to that chimney. He was going to call his rep. Should I just give up and look at another stove? Any stoves that would work with that chimney? A hearthstone is on
it now.

 

[kennyp2339]

The

So you have a 6" stainless class a chimney, how long of a run from stove collar to cap? are there an bends?