2014-2015 Blaze King Performance thread (Everything BK)#2

[Idahonative]

No it could still build up once you shut things down.
For sure with sub par wood.

The bold is bad advice.

Creosote WILL NOT magically appear over night with good burn practices. It builds up over time ("black sticky stuff") which is why daily burn offs are so important. I think you might want to educate yourself a little more before giving anyone advice on this site (IMO of course ).

 

[Idahonative]

I have one question (as a non BK owner). When you do a hot burn to clean the glass (and stove), does the glass burst into flame until the black is gone?

No.

 

[HotCoals]

Creosote WILL NOT magically appear over night with good burn practices. It builds up over time ("black sticky stuff") which is why daily burn offs are so important. I think you might want to educate yourself a little more before giving anyone advice on this site (IMO of course ).

It will build up over time. Just burning a hot fire once a day will not keep it away.
Especially with wet wood.
I been doing this for over 30 years.
A flue should be cleaned at least once a year and checked more then that if your a new burner and still should be brushed once a year.

Third degree creosote looks like tar coating or running down the inside of the chimney. It is extremely concentrated fuel. It can get very thick as it hardens and is recoated over and over. An inch thick would be unusual, but it’s not unheard of.

And worse yet is third degree creosote that fills up “chimney fire fluff.” If creosote buildup catches fire in a chimney, maybe it burns away completely but more often it does not. More frequently the creosote partly boils, partly burns and leaves a dried out light-weight “sponge,” often more than 2” thick which is actually very easy to remove. But if it is not removed, new third degree creosote fills that sponge you can have well in excess of 100 pounds of creosote in a chimney.

The first chimney fire may not have damaged the house, but that next chimney fire will be fiercer than the first and exceptionally dangerous.
(broken link removed)

 

[begreen]

After going through the new King manual I don't think I have ever seen more warnings about creosote. It is a real potential problem given the variables in chimneys, outdoor temps, wood, and the low flue gas temps that come with burning low and slow. Frequent cleanings that match one's situation (wood, chimney, outdoor temps) seems like the best way to keep ahead of this. If you have an interior, straight-up chimney, dry wood and average winter temps, once a year could be fine. But if you have had to dip into your less seasoned reserves due to a long, extra cold winter and the stove is hooked up to a 25ft exterior chimney, then I would be cleaning the chimney once every cord burned.

 

[HotCoals]

After going through the new King manual I don't think I have ever seen more warnings about creosote. It is a real potential problem given the variables in chimneys, outdoor temps, wood, and the low flue temps that come with burning low and slow. Frequent cleanings that match one's situation (wood, chimney, outdoor temps) seems like the best way to keep ahead of this. If you have an interior, straight-up chimney, dry wood and average winter temps, once a year could be fine. But if you have had to dip into your less seasoned reserves due to a long, extra cold winter and the stove is hooked up to a 25ft exterior chimney, then I would be cleaning the chimney once every cord burned.

I concur.

I think what the writers on the BK manual are really referring to is at reload to burn a hot fire for a 1/2 hour or so.
Doing that may boil a good share of the water out of the wood...turn the water to steam and send it up and out the flue.
Of course there will still be water left in the wood when you shut down but not as much.
But that would be at every reload-not just once a day.

 

[bobdog2o02]

I have one question (as a non BK owner). When you do a hot burn to clean the glass (and stove), does the glass burst into flame until the black is gone?

No, but if its heavy you can watch the sote break down and peel off.

 

[HotCoals]

With a cat stove you really do have to watch things -for sure with wet wood.
The cap will be the first thing to show that your not doing things right and- or your wood is to wet.

If you put 50 lbs of wood in a stove and the MC is 20% even-that's still 10lbs of water.
Which is over a gallon.

 

[Highbeam]

I concur.

I think what the writers on the BK manual are really referring to is at reload to burn a hot fire for a 1/2 hour or so.
Doing that may boil a good share of the water out of the wood...turn the water to steam and send it up and out the flue.
Of course there will still be water left in the wood when you shut down but not as much.
But that would be at every reload-not just once a day.

I agree, they don't want you to just chuck in fresh wood and go. I have seen people do that with no adjustment to the intake air on non-cats too. No attempt to burn in a fresh load.

So there is the initial charring of a fresh load and then there is this whole different burn out procedure posted here, and apparently not in the manual, by the BKVP to run the stove on high for one hour once per week to clean the stove. I've done that and it does a nice job but the glass stays dirty.

 

[HotCoals]

I agree, they don't want you to just chuck in fresh wood and go. I have seen people do that with no adjustment to the intake air on non-cats too. No attempt to burn in a fresh load.

So there is the initial charring of a fresh load and then there is this whole different burn out procedure posted here, and apparently not in the manual, by the BKVP to run the stove on high for one hour once per week to clean the stove. I've done that and it does a nice job but the glass stays dirty.

I believe that will clean up the inside the stove..but that's where the fire lives anyways The flue-not so much.
I can clean my glass up fine with a really hot fire.
I'm careful about that though,I don't want the flames licking on my cat to long and to high.

 

[Poindexter]

Creosote WILL NOT magically appear over night with good burn practices. It builds up over time ("black sticky stuff") which is why daily burn offs are so important. I think you might want to educate yourself a little more before giving anyone advice on this site (IMO of course ).

I think I am going stick with taking chimeny cleaning advice form the fireman already registered as a user here.

 

[Ashful]

From the King manual concerning creosote:

"Remember - the hotter the fire the less creosote. Small intense fires create less creosote than large, smoldering fires. We recommend that each day a small intense fire be built, preferably in the morning. This daily practice should burn out the small deposits of creosote before they build to a dangerous level. The combustion air inlet should be opened for at least 30 minutes by turning the thermostat up in the morning and evening. NEVER “burn out” large deposits of more than one days accumulation."

Under operating instructions:

"Let the fire burn on a higher setting (on the thermostat) for 20-30 minutes, or until the fire is well established, then turn the thermostat to the desired setting. It is good burning practice to burn the stove on high for 20-30 mins after every refueling, this will help in cleaning off any residual build-ups and lessen the chance of accumulation."

Under catalytic combustor cleaning:

"TIP: A nice hot fire will usually prove to be the best method of cleaning the combustor of deposits."

Under door glass cleaning:

"The best way to keep the glass clean is to leave the stove on high burn for a period of time after each reloading. The moisture which is driven from a new load of wood contributes much of the creosote on the inside of the glass. Removing that moisture at the beginning of the burn cycle helps to keep the glass clean. Leaving the thermostat on a higher setting for 30 minutes to an hour before turning to low for an overnight burn will also help."

It's clear Blaze King wants the customer to do these daily burn offs (as we call them) to keep everything clean, not just the flue. My family has done this for decades (not just with BK products) and it has proven to be the best preventative maintenance. Like I said, over 50 years of burning 24/7 between the two houses and never, ever have we ran a brush...there's no need to. You can't have a chimney fire without fuel (creosote). By burning properly seasoned wood and doing daily burn offs, this fuel can't build up.

I don't think BK is recommending their customers do what we are doing (no chimney sweep) because they can't. The legal aspects of their business won't allow it. There always has to be legal wording in the manual to keep them from being sued.

Perfect. This is what I saw in the Ashford manual, as well.

I think what the writers on the BK manual are really referring to is at reload to burn a hot fire for a 1/2 hour or so.

Their language is pretty clear, "We recommend that each day a SMALL intense fire be built..." Really, they're talking out of both sides of their mouth here, as of course no one buying a stove whose entire marketing campaign is based on 30 - 40 hour burn times is going into this with the mindset that they're going to have to carve out a few hours of each day to build and burn down a "small intense fire." In fact, if you have a 40 hour burn time, it's not even possible to do this "every day".

I'm assuming this is CYA language... thank your nearest lawyer.

So there is the initial charring of a fresh load and then there is this whole different burn out procedure posted here, and apparently not in the manual...

Maybe this has only been added to the manuals recently? Have you downloaded the latest revision of your manual to compare?

 

[Ashful]

In fact, if you have a 40 hour burn time, it's not even possible to do this "every day".

Quoting myself, here, but I just checked. It is possible, thanks to time dilation theory, to do the recommended daily "small hot fire" with a 40 hour burn time. Assuming 2 hours is allowed for loading and burn down of this small hot fire, you and the stove must be traveling at 83.5% the speed of light, throughout the entire 40 hour burn time.

 

[HotCoals]

Come on.

My point is a small hot fire once a day will not keep your flue clean or prevent creo to the point that you don't have to clean once a year or at least check it out.
I clean mine once a season and get maybe a 1/2 gall of stage 1 and 2.
That said my flue is straight up through two stories..all interior.
I have yet to see stage 3 ..and that's a good thing.
But my cap was almost plugged once..the screen.
I do think burning hot for that first 1/2 hour after reload is a good idea..for more then one reason. Though I usually don't burn hot for more then 15 mins myself before backing it down.

 

[tarzan]

BKVP has stated here many times that the majority of the moisture in the fuel is taken care of in the first hour of the burn. Perhaps this has something to do with the statements in the manuals.

My wood is dry and my pipe is clean. I do check it often and will clean annually but also keep turning my thermostat from 3 to the setting I want when the cat probe thermometer reaches 12 o'clock.

 

[alforit]

Come on.

My point is a small hot fire once a day will not keep your flue clean or prevent creo to the point that you don't have to clean once a year or at least check it out.
I clean mine once a season and get maybe a 1/2 gall of stage 1 and 2.
That said my flue is straight up through two stories..all interior.
I have yet to see stage 3 ..and that's a good thing.
But my cap was almost plugged once..the screen.
I do think burning hot for that first 1/2 hour after reload is a good idea..for more then one reason. Though I usually don't burn hot for more then 15 mins myself before backing it down.

Idahonative,

HotCoals is right on this . The non cat stove or smoke dragon experience is different than a BK experience.........Unless you NEVER plan to do a low burn with your BK you will always have buildup.....No matter what. ....Its impossible to burn it all off . BK's burn with a much cooler flu for a long period of time. That's just the way it is . And even if you do a short hot burn once a day . you are still not making up for the 23 hours of low burn time , nor are you reaching the top cooler areas of the chimney where the build up occurs.

I have a 17 foot chimney and did the once a day hot burn thing when I first started burning a BK . And it helps but does NOT stop it or remove the buildup. It helps with the box and lower flu buildup though.

Don't take a chance my friend and assume that your chimney will be clean..... Its not worth the risk. Check it and clean it if necessary a couple times a season.

 

[rdust]

Idahonative,

I assume you're performing this daily "burnoff" with the bypass closed?

 

[Poindexter]

I am thinking the one hour on full throttle I do with every reload on my BK _minimizes_ creosote buildup by burning 'most' of the moisture off into the hottest possible flue.

Once I turn it down, H2O vapor is still a product of combustion and 'some' of it, given the lower flue temp and my brutal outdoor ambients is still going to condense before it gets out of the stack.

 

[Idahonative]

Idahonative,

I assume you're performing this daily "burnoff" with the bypass closed?

Yes, we do the daily burn off with the bypass closed and take the cat probe up to the max before turning the thermo back down to normal.

 

[Idahonative]

Idahonative,

HotCoals is right on this . The non cat stove or smoke dragon experience is different than a BK experience.........Unless you NEVER plan to do a low burn with your BK you will always have buildup.....No matter what. ....Its impossible to burn it all off . BK's burn with a much cooler flu for a long period of time. That's just the way it is . And even if you do a short hot burn once a day . you are still not making up for the 23 hours of low burn time , nor are you reaching the top cooler areas of the chimney where the build up occurs.

I have a 17 foot chimney and did the once a day hot burn thing when I first started burning a BK . And it helps but does NOT stop it or remove the buildup. It helps with the box and lower flu buildup though.

Don't take a chance my friend and assume that your chimney will be clean..... Its not worth the risk. Check it and clean it if necessary a couple times a season.

We live in a 1250 sf house and the King Ultra is a big stove, spending nearly all of it's life in low burn. If anyone is going to have a problem with creosote buildup, it will be us. According to your statement, we should have burned our house down a long time ago. I check the pipes periodically...always clean (thin coating of light colored ash is normal).

If sweeping your flue gives you a sense of security, by all means keep doing what you're doing. As for our flue, I consider it a waste of time and decades of burning tells me it works for us. I have no interest in persuading someone else to do what we do. I'm only sharing our experience.

 

[alforit]

We live in a 1250 sf house and the King Ultra is a big stove, spending nearly all of it's life in low burn. If anyone is going to have a problem with creosote buildup, it will be us. According to your statement, we should have burned our house down a long time ago. I check the pipes periodically...always clean (thin coating of light colored ash is normal).

If sweeping your flue gives you a sense of security, by all means keep doing what you're doing. As for our flue, I consider it a waste of time and decades of burning tells me it works for us. I have no interest in persuading someone else to do what we do. I'm only sharing our experience.

That's awesome that your experience with buildup is minimal .......And that is equally good that you don't recommend your regime to others heh heh

Just lookin out for ya and wouldn't want you to have any tragedy happen. Sounds like you got it under control though.

Every setup is different and results are different, But the necessity of checking and cleaning a chimney should be the same for everyone.

 

[Ashful]

My point is a small hot fire once a day will not keep your flue clean or prevent creo to the point that you don't have to clean once a year or at least check it out.

I agree 100%. Wasn't arguing with that!

 

[Idahonative]

That's awesome that your experience with buildup is minimal .......And that is equally good that you don't recommend your regime to others heh heh

Just lookin out for ya and wouldn't want you to have any tragedy happen. Sounds like you got it under control though.

Every setup is different and results are different, But the necessity of checking and cleaning a chimney should be the same for everyone.

I appreciate you looking out for us, I really do. I know about chimney fires. My grandpa and brother both had them years ago. They also didn't listen to others who were giving them advise on avoiding such problems. They didn't take seriously the importance of dry wood, minimal elbows, and daily burn offs. They both learned the hard way. I truly believe my brother would have burned to death had his dog not woke him when he had a chimney fire in the middle of the night. They are no joke and a person is better off being too careful than not careful enough. We have burned so long (doing the same thing year after year), creosote has proved not to be a problem for us.

My son is stationed on Whidbey Island and my wife has family in Tumwater, Puyallup, and Tacoma. We have spent the last three days in this area and it has really opened my eyes to just how wet this area is. Everywhere we go, I see moss growing on everything. My son tells me how many months it rains here and It makes me wonder how in the world you guys ever get your wood seasoned. Could creosote be more of a problem in your area because of your high humidity vs. our desert environment in SW Idaho? Even if you get dry weather in the summer, wouldn't it be possible for your wood to take on moisture later in the year (when it's wet again) unless you have it stored indoors? There seem to be quite a few of you guys west of the cascades that talk about creosote so I'm curious how hard it is to get your wood below 20%.

 

[alforit]

I appreciate you looking out for us, I really do. I know about chimney fires. My grandpa and brother both had them years ago. They also didn't listen to others who were giving them advise on avoiding such problems. They didn't take seriously the importance of dry wood, minimal elbows, and daily burn offs. They both learned the hard way. I truly believe my brother would have burned to death had his dog not woke him when he had a chimney fire in the middle of the night. They are no joke and a person is better off being too careful than not careful enough. We have burned so long (doing the same thing year after year), creosote has proved not to be a problem for us.

My son is stationed on Whidbey Island and my wife has family in Tumwater, Puyallup, and Tacoma. We have spent the last three days in this area and it has really opened my eyes to just how wet this area is. Everywhere we go, I see moss growing on everything. My son tells me how many months it rains here and It makes me wonder how in the world you guys ever get your wood seasoned. Could creosote be more of a problem in your area because of your high humidity vs. our desert environment in SW Idaho? Even if you get dry weather in the summer, wouldn't it be possible for your wood to take on moisture later in the year (when it's wet again) unless you have it stored indoors? There seem to be quite a few of you guys west of the cascades that talk about creosote so I'm curious how hard it is to get your wood below 20%.

I live about 20 minutes away from Tacoma and 10 from Puyallup..............We have been dry for several days so your timing is good .

Yeah its likely that the moisture here contributes to the dryness of the wood.......If its not properly seasoned.......I see a lot of folk in my town with the wood outside with just a tarp over the pile and I can see that its not keeping it dry enough. I put mine under my deck which has a cover installed under ceiling of the deck. It dries pretty good but not a quick as the ones I know that store it in a barn or shed. So definitively an advantage to those is the desert areas.

 

[Highbeam]

I appreciate you looking out for us, I really do. I know about chimney fires. My grandpa and brother both had them years ago. They also didn't listen to others who were giving them advise on avoiding such problems. They didn't take seriously the importance of dry wood, minimal elbows, and daily burn offs. They both learned the hard way. I truly believe my brother would have burned to death had his dog not woke him when he had a chimney fire in the middle of the night. They are no joke and a person is better off being too careful than not careful enough. We have burned so long (doing the same thing year after year), creosote has proved not to be a problem for us.

My son is stationed on Whidbey Island and my wife has family in Tumwater, Puyallup, and Tacoma. We have spent the last three days in this area and it has really opened my eyes to just how wet this area is. Everywhere we go, I see moss growing on everything. My son tells me how many months it rains here and It makes me wonder how in the world you guys ever get your wood seasoned. Could creosote be more of a problem in your area because of your high humidity vs. our desert environment in SW Idaho? Even if you get dry weather in the summer, wouldn't it be possible for your wood to take on moisture later in the year (when it's wet again) unless you have it stored indoors? There seem to be quite a few of you guys west of the cascades that talk about creosote so I'm curious how hard it is to get your wood below 20%.

I live up in the hills above Puyallup too. My wood just measured 14% but the lawn is full of moss. Humidity is very low right now.

 

[HotCoals]

I appreciate you looking out for us, I really do. I know about chimney fires. My grandpa and brother both had them years ago. They also didn't listen to others who were giving them advise on avoiding such problems. They didn't take seriously the importance of dry wood, minimal elbows, and daily burn offs. They both learned the hard way. I truly believe my brother would have burned to death had his dog not woke him when he had a chimney fire in the middle of the night. They are no joke and a person is better off being too careful than not careful enough. We have burned so long (doing the same thing year after year), creosote has proved not to be a problem for us.

My son is stationed on Whidbey Island and my wife has family in Tumwater, Puyallup, and Tacoma. We have spent the last three days in this area and it has really opened my eyes to just how wet this area is. Everywhere we go, I see moss growing on everything. My son tells me how many months it rains here and It makes me wonder how in the world you guys ever get your wood seasoned. Could creosote be more of a problem in your area because of your high humidity vs. our desert environment in SW Idaho? Even if you get dry weather in the summer, wouldn't it be possible for your wood to take on moisture later in the year (when it's wet again) unless you have it stored indoors? There seem to be quite a few of you guys west of the cascades that talk about creosote so I'm curious how hard it is to get your wood below 20%.

On the bold.

Are you saying that you can burn the creo off daily in your flue/chimney by having a hot fire once a day.
I just want it too be clear if that is what you're saying.