$16,943.00 later and I still have the oil guy coming tomorrow!!!

[infinitymike]

If I leave my OB and WG tees where they are and leave the load line where they are and flip the primary loop circ pump to flow clockwise, would that help.

Nice! But I think you'd have to reverse the flow of both the load circulators as well. Would that be possible? Plus if you reversed the load pumps you'd be 'pumping away', which is sometimes necessary and always foolproof.

Otherwise all the hot wood boiler water entering at 3:30 will mix with the load return flows at 5:30 and 6:30. Then most of the mixed flow goes out the top to the loads and the rest of the mixed flow returns to the boiler at 2:30. Mixing hot boiler water with load return water would be another version of the problem you have now, so not good.

Is there a benefit to move the supply and return lines of the 2 zones to be next to each other with closely spaced tees instead of at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock?

Having them on opposite sides of the primary might work quite well in you situation.

Closely spaced tees will help guarantee that there won't be any unwanted parallel flows through idle loads, but I'm not convinced that is a problem you need to worry about in your system.

Also closely spaced tees will tend to prioritize your loads in the order that they pull from the primary loop, which could be an advantage, or not, depends on the type of loads and what your design goals are.

Hang in there, sounds like you may be able to get it straitened out without reworking any of the plumbing.

Cheers --ewd

See this is where I get confused and maybe you can help me.

The way I see it, is that If I flip the primary pump (clockwise flow) and move the load pumps to "pull away" off the top doesn't the hot wood boiler water still mix with the cooler returning water of the loads coming back in at the bottom any way.

And by the way how do you take a partial quote like you did and still make it have that greyish shading over it? do you cut all the text you don't want but leave the

at the beginning and end?

 

[ewdudley]

See this is where I get confused and maybe you can help me.

The way I see it, is that If I flip the primary pump (clockwise flow) and move the load pumps to "pull away" off the top doesn't the hot wood boiler water still mix with the cooler returning water of the loads coming back in at the bottom any way.

From the photo, and as you've verified, the load lines currently pull out of the loop at noon and return back at the bottom, so if you reversed the two load pumps you'd be pulling from the bottom directly after the injection of hot from the wood boiler at 3:30. So the hot water from the wood boiler would go directly to loads without getting mixed with any return water.

(Doh! But then the oil boiler would be injecting at '9:30' and mixing with the load returns at the top of the primary loop, although it's possible that could work adequately since there's plenty of flow from the oil boiler that is adjacent to the primary loop and a smaller deltaT wouldn't be such a big problem.)

And by the way how do you take a partial quote like you did and still make it have that greyish shading over it? do you cut all the text you don't want but leave the at the beginning and end?

[There's got to be an easier way, but all I do is to open up a spot in the middle of where I want to insert my text, then I hit the 'quote' button twice, then I remove the first open quote and the last close quote, which leaves a close quote and an open quote. Then I place the cursor between the close quote and the open quote and that inserts my text in the middle of the original text.]

 

[infinitymike]

See this is where I get confused and maybe you can help me.

The way I see it, is that If I flip the primary pump (clockwise flow) and move the load pumps to "pull away" off the top doesn't the hot wood boiler water still mix with the cooler returning water of the loads coming back in at the bottom any way.

From the photo, and as you've verified, the load lines currently pull out of the loop at noon and return back at the bottom, so if you reversed the two load pumps you'd be pulling from the bottom directly after the injection of hot from the wood boiler at 3:30. So the hot water from the wood boiler would go directly to loads without getting mixed with any return water.

(Doh! But then the oil boiler would be injecting at '9:30' and mixing with the load returns at the top of the primary loop, although it's possible that could work adequately since there's plenty of flow from the oil boiler that is adjacent to the primary loop and a smaller deltaT wouldn't be such a big problem.)

And by the way how do you take a partial quote like you did and still make it have that greyish shading over it? do you cut all the text you don't want but leave the at the beginning and end?

[There's got to be an easier way, but all I do is to open up a spot in the middle of where I want to insert my text, then I hit the 'quote' button twice, then I remove the first open quote and the last close quote, which leaves a close quote and an open quote. Then I place the cursor between the close quote and the open quote and that inserts my text in the middle of the original text.]

Wait a minute are those quotes at 3:30 or 2:30 or maybe they are at 12 noon or 6pm do the new quotes mix with the old quotes. LOL LOL LOL Sorry I am alittle wise guy.

OK sorry lets get serious again. When you say reverse the two load pumps you mean just flip them so the same line the are hooked to now will be come the supply line to the zones. I dont think I can do that on my first floor zone because that will change the direction of water flow and I have a monoflow system. The second floor is standard baseboard so that wouldn't be a problem.

But again doesn't the colder returning water from the zones eventually get into the loop and mix with some of the hot boiler supplied water anyway. No matter how it is piped. What am I missing.

 

[bpirger]

Yes, the colder return will mix, but if you reversed the flow, you'd get the "full shot" of hot water from the WG going out to the loads...whereas now some percentage of it goes right back to the WG. So while you will always getting some amount of mixing of the hottest supply with the cooler return, you'll get more hottest supply going to the load....

 

[infinitymike]

Yes, the colder return will mix, but if you reversed the flow, you'd get the "full shot" of hot water from the WG going out to the loads...whereas now some percentage of it goes right back to the WG. So while you will always getting some amount of mixing of the hottest supply with the cooler return, you'll get more hottest supply going to the load....

Okey Dokey Smokey. Got it.

 

[ewdudley]

When you say reverse the two load pumps you mean just flip them so the same line the are hooked to now will be come the supply line to the zones. I dont think I can do that on my first floor zone because that will change the direction of water flow and I have a monoflow system. The second floor is standard baseboard so that wouldn't be a problem.

But again doesn't the colder returning water from the zones eventually get into the loop and mix with some of the hot boiler supplied water anyway. No matter how it is piped. What am I missing.

As Bruce explained, need to deliver hottest water to emitters to move the most heat. Underlying constraint is the size of the PEX coming from the wood boiler, so need to maximize deltaT on the load side.

Since you can't reverse the primary loop flow, I think your best option at this point would to rework the lines from the wood boiler so that cool return water is pulled to the wood boiler from 3:30 and the hot water from the wood boiler enters the primary loop at 2:30. This ought to enable you to move maximum heat flow through the wood boiler to primary circuit, which appears to be your bottleneck.

The oil boiler side will be a problem. I might work adequately to swap the lines from the oil boiler where they connect to the primary loop, then at least the oil boiler would be pumping the right direction, but there would be a lot of flow and a lot of mixing although it might do well enough to meet your requirements.

If you're going to be heating the vast majority of the time with wood this winter then just swapping the the wood boiler lines should get you through in good shape for this winter, but ultimately it won't work right until you have a true primary secondary with reasonably close tees as HR advised somewhere along the line.

--ewd

 

[Gasifier]

I am allready looking for a storage tank or two or three, maybe I’ll be the guy with 1500 gallons or more of storage.

Mike, this tank is something that looks like it would work good for you. The price showing is for one. But it says two available. I wonder what you could get both of them for if you called them? Delivery included.

(broken link removed to http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRUNNER-ENGINEERING-MFG-400-GALLON-AIR-RECEIVER-TANK-150-PSI-VERTICAL-/390371680653?pt=BI_Air_Compressors&hash=item5ae3f7218d)

Both of them would be better. 800 gallons. Vertical tanks with plumbing there already. Take up little space. The only problem I see with these is they are pricey. And you would have to get them to your place. If I remember right I paid $600 or $650 for my 400 gallon tank. Then I think it cost me $250 or so to get it delivered. Expensive, yes. But beautifully clean on the inside. ASME stamp welded to the outside. No worries. Any place that sells used industrial equipment like these tanks will usually put it on a pallett and strap it down to it for shipping, then get it off to you pretty quick.

A suggestion for you and anyone searching for a storage tank. When you search the Internet for them, search using "air reciever tank" for your search words. Should get you more hits on a nice, former air tank. Mine was very clean on the inside. Something to think about.

Here is a 600 gallon tank. Nice size for your Gun.
(broken link removed to http://www.ebay.com/itm/600-GALLON-COMPRESSED-AIR-RECEIVER-TANK-125-PSI-STEEL-/110714955701?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c72027b5)

 

[SteveJ]

If you want to go big, consider (broken link removed to http://www.ebay.com/itm/3500-GALLON-HORIZONTAL-COMPRESSED-AIR-RECEIVER-STORAGE-TANK-125-PSI-/130602348652)

It may take a couple of cords to get the tank up to temperature

 

[infinitymike]

If you want to go big, consider (broken link removed to http://www.ebay.com/itm/3500-GALLON-HORIZONTAL-COMPRESSED-AIR-RECEIVER-STORAGE-TANK-125-PSI-/130602348652)

It may take a couple of cords to get the tank up to temperature

NOW WE ARE TALKIN' BABY!!