$16,943.00 later and I still have the oil guy coming tomorrow!!!

[infinitymike]

Mike, you need to know what the temp is at different points, like the last poster said. The boiler is getting hot, but what is the temp in the primary loop? What is the temp on the line going to the zones? If I recall, there was some concern that the piping from the WG into the primary loop was "backwards", i.e. the hot line was "after" the cooler line, seen from the direction around the loop. If this is the case, here's a possibility. When you pump water into the primary loop, say 10 gpm goes into the primary loop from the WG secondary loop. This means that 10 gpm has to go back to the WG, since there will be no vacuum in your pipes. 10 gpm out of the loop REQUIRES 10 gpm back into the secondary. So if the hot water from the WG is going into the primary "behind" the cool return to the secondary, you could be pumpoing all your hot water only into the primary loop for a short few inches, between the tees, and then it heads back to the primary. Some of it will stay in the primary, but not all 10gpm, in fact likely not most, if the tees are reveresed.

So if you watch the temp at various points, output of the boiler, in the primary loop, and on the feeds to the baseboards, you can make sure that the hot water is going where it should go.

Another thing that I think happens....when you pump from the secondary loop into the primary, you aren't going to replace ALL the water in the primary with the hot water from the WG. Say you only put in 80%. SO if the water from the WG is 190, and water in the primary is 100, then you will only get 80% of the difference, or .8*90=72 degrees, so the primary will rise up to 172 only. I'm not sure how you can overcome this, unless you had a perfectly balanced flow between the primary and the secondary loop.

Others please yell out if I'm wrong on this....

What will happen as you heat up the primary water of course is the 80% still occurs, but the primary water will increase...say to 150 after a 20 degree drop in your baseboard. So now 80% at 190 and 20% at 150 gives you 182. But of course the 190 will also drop.... So as time goes on, you should see the temp in the primary loop increase (as it replaces the cooler water already there), and then rise up a bit (as the primary loop rises), but then it may drop as the boiler output temp drops below the 190. And then the boiler will kick in and bring it back up...

SO if the amount of heat you dump through the baseboards into the house is less than what the boiler can introduce, the temp will rise....but you will never get all the way up to the 190 that the boiler output gives you, unless you are able to remove ALL the water in the primary loop with 190 water from the primary....

Does that make sense?

And then if your tees are "backwards", it may be you are only getting say 30% or 50% (who knows) into the primary loop....so then you won't get the higher temps in the primary, and not into your zones.

If you see, for example, that the secondary loop into the primary (just before it enters the primary) is 190, but the return to the WG stays really warm, like 180 or whatever, then you know you aren't getting good "injection" of hot water into the primary loop from the secondary....a little bit, but not the full shot like you should.

Maybe I'm all wet here, but I think that is how it would work if you aren't getting the full shot from the secondary into the primary....


You can pickup a meter with a thermocouple, or maybe a couple of thermocouples, and place them on your piping in various points and measure the temps. I don't have good experience with the IR guns on copper...maybe if you put something black on the copper (like tape or something)....the emissivity of shiny copper is low...i.e. how much it wants to naturally radiate heat. A black thing radiates very well...a shiny thing does not. But the thermocouple, taped onto the pipe, will give you a good reading. Those sensors are also a nice thing to tape around everywhere and then you can monitor at 8, 16, or 32 points. I bought the stuff, but still on the to do list....sigh. About $100 or so....so not too bad.

I think I follow you but I will read it a couple times over.

 

[infinitymike]

What I am afraid of is the fact that I ran 1" pex for my supply and return from the Wood Gun to the primary loop.

In your last set of photos it looked like the loop from the wood boiler was pulling from 2:30 and injecting at 3:30, and the primary loop was going counterclockwise. And your load loops were pulling from the top of the loop and returning to the bottom. Is this still the case?

If I've got this right then suppose the following:

Primary loop flows 14 gpm.

Wood boiler loop flows 7 gpm.

Each load loop flows 10 gpm.

14 gpm primary flow meets WB 7 gpm at 3:30, mixes to become 21 gpm until combined flow gets to 2:30. 7 gpm of mixed flow returns to WB, 2.33 gpm of which just came from the WB and is now happy-turning, yielding net flow of 4.66 gpm from the WB.

Meanwhile the pair of loads is injecting 20 gpm of return water at 6:30 and 5:30 together. All of the 5:30 flow and 4 gpm of the 6:30 flow go counterclockwise to make the 14 gpm of the primary loop pump. 6 gpm of the 6:30 flow goes clockwise, happy-turning right back to where it came from.

Does this sound right? If so then your last teacup of air may be the least of your problems.

Are those time AM or PM and what time zone are we in? :cheese:
Sorry couldn't resist.

I followed you up to the part where 2.33 gpm is happy turning and yielding a net flow of 4.66
Where did those #'s come from and what is happy turning.
Wait I think I figured out happy turning but please explain it anyway.

 

[infinitymike]

If your wood is green the boiler will struggle to keep up with demand. I am not saying it is the problem but get some dry wood and try it again. See if the system will still pull the wood boiler down. That would be the first free thing that you could try.

gg

+1 --- As I recall, you posted a photo of your wood in an earlier post. If that's the wood you are burning as opposed to a split, stacked and covered stash of wood that didn't make it into the picture, that could be part of the problem.

The last pic I posted is NOT what I'm burning that was a logging truck I hi-jacked. But I AM burning wood that was cut/split and stacked in mid September (this year).
I re-split most of it into halves and some into thirds because I am afraid that it is to big and wet to burn properly. However, when I re-split it has a moisture reading of 18-22% It is all maple.

 

[infinitymike]

is your loop insulated? 70’ of 1†line has 18.3sq-ft of surface area. Times that by two if the full loop is a total 140ft. Either way, that is a lot of surface area to have un-insulated on a loop-line imo. This is just more of an efficiency concern which is not your case.

Yes both lines of the WG are insulated and 60 feet(total of 120') are indoors.

 

[Willman]

But I AM burning wood that was cut/split and stacked in mid September

Ding Ding we have the problem solved mostly with this statement. The btus used to drive off excessive moisture should be going to heating the house not the wood.

Get going on your wood supply for the next two years.
Buy some biobrick or similar and see how the boiler does maybe even get some kiln dried cord wood, when boiler works as expected, problem solved.

Will

 

[infinitymike]

Ok - more banter from the rookie.

How is your DHW plumbed?

Is the oil boiler and the WG on the same loop? Perhaps you are heating your HW with oil then sending it through an idle WG where it the colder tank water is drawing out the heat by some type of thermalsiphon?

Right now the DHW comes out of a coil in the OB only. The OB is maintaing a low temp just for the DHW and to ready in case it actually needs to be used for heat. Is it possible to get any warm water out of the OB into the primary loop if it is only supply DHW.

 

[infinitymike]

I'll toss in more on the DHW thing. Also wondering how it's plumbed - but I'd think about zoning in my new DWH tank to the WG right now, and running the domestic side in series, first thru the WG coil, then to the new indirect. Then make small fires if there's no other heat load. You should be able to avoid oil use all together with the WG & indirect tank even with no other heat load to keep the WG going all the time - between hot water in the wood gun after a fire, and what it's heated up in the indirect, that should last for a little while?

Right now the DHW comes out of a coil from the OB only.

My next plan is since I just bought a new Weil Mclain Gold plus 40 indirect DHW tank is to supply it from the primary loop as a zone, so either the OB or WG can heat the primary loop and feed the tank.

If I take the cold water from the street and plumb it into the coil of the WG and then out (now hot) into the tank and then out of the tank to the different fixtures how can I ever heat it with oil if I needed to?

 

[bpirger]

If you go through the WG coil first, into your new tank, then the new tank would be heated further from the primary loop, I'd think you'd be all set. Whatever doesn't get heated in the WG would have the aqustat in the new DHW tank turn on, so the pump would go on in the DHW secondary loop to heat the tank. If the WG is cold, say all summer, the water flows through it into the DHW tank, and the aqustat on the DHW turns on the oil boiler and the pump. Might need to have a control to turn on the OB if the WG is cold...that's what I do.

 

[infinitymike]

Mike,

Don't forget this buddy. You are almost all the way there. When you add in a 500 gallon storage tank (go with a pressurized tank) and super insulate it, then get a little plumbing adjustment done, and add a little experience of burning that Wood Gun you will be f@$*ing golden man.

Now with the amount of money you must of paid your installer, with almost $17 into it, once you figure out what the plumbing problem is I would want him to fix it at no additional cost. I got my Wood Gun and tank all in place myself, and then my installation cost me about $4000. Total system expenses right under $13,000 installed. Now my guys were charging $30/hr for there work. A good deal as far as I was concerned. I did not have the time or desire to do it. So there was a little over $900 in labor(of the $4000 to install), the rest was expensive copper pipe, copper fittings, pumps, etc. etc. We went the copper way to save on labor. The compression fittings were very fast. But you will get there my friend. And when you do, with that storage, oh man, you are going to love it.

I would get together with EW or inhotwater or one of the other very knowledgeable guys on here and let them help you figure out what the problem is. It sounds like you have something wrong. Then you can tell your installer how you want it repiped. It should not take him to long to make some changes. Tell the wife you need a storage tank for Christmas! Santa list? ;-) Take care Mike, it will all work out.

Heres where all the money went so far.
$ 8,800 for Wood Gun
$2,700 labor for installer ($80/hour) he worked by himself.
$2,800 plumbing parts
$900 flue pipe
$1,300 in materials for boiler room stuff.
$400 for 2 cords of wood that were supposed to be seasoned

I am allready looking for a storage tank or two or three, maybe I'll be the guy with 1500 gallons or more of storage. :coolhmm:

 

[infinitymike]

If you go through the WG coil first, into your new tank, then the new tank would be heated further from the primary loop, I'd think you'd be all set. Whatever doesn't get heated in the WG would have the aqustat in the new DHW tank turn on, so the pump would go on in the DHW secondary loop to heat the tank. If the WG is cold, say all summer, the water flows through it into the DHW tank, and the aqustat on the DHW turns on the oil boiler and the pump. Might need to have a control to turn on the OB if the WG is cold...that's what I do.

So I still have it tied into the primary as a zone?
Not sure I follow the piping .
Do I have two supplies into the tank? One from the WG coil and one from the primary loop with a zone pump?Where does the return of the WG coil water go?

 

[Gasifier]

Heres where all the money went so far.
$ 8,800 for Wood Gun
$2,700 labor for installer ($80/hour) he worked by himself.
$2,800 plumbing parts
$900 flue pipe
$1,300 in materials for boiler room stuff.
$400 for 2 cords of wood that were supposed to be seasoned
I am allready looking for a storage tank or two or three, maybe I’ll be the guy with 1500 gallons or more of storage.

I forgot about the flue pipe (I had mine already because of wood stove) and all the material to change part of the garage over to boiler room. So minus the flue pipe, the garage conversion, and the wood, you are like 14,400ish. So you are doing fine. As far as the tank goes, I personally would go with a pressurized tank(s). Find a used, ASME rated tank(s). A tank that was once used as an air pressure tank will be nice and clean. Some use propane or other tanks. But either way, a pressurised system is simple. Once it is full, heated, and the air is out of the system, no worries after that. It will all come together for ya man. I think your green wood may be part of your problem. But just part of it. I think, if you are not getting very good heat, there is more problem going on there than just green wood.

 

[bpirger]

There's many ways to skin the cat here for sure....

I understood the coil in the WG to be for heating DHW...i.e. you pass the cold potable in one end, and out comes the hot potable water. So then if this goes into the new DHW tank potable "in", it will go into the tank hot if the WG is hot. The new tank potable "hot" out goes off to the house. I would also think that the new tank has a coil in and a coil out to heat the water in the DHW tank, controlled by an aquastat. So these two lines, the coil IN and coil OUT on the indirect tank would be connected to the primary loop as a secondary loop, i.e. closely spaced tees, and there'd also be a pump in this secondary loop to heat the DHW tank when necessary. The aqustat would turn on the circulator in this indirect DHW loop.

Now, when the DHW needs to be heated, you also have to turn on the primary loop pump and the WG pump to put heat into the primary loop.... OR, if the wood gun is cold, i.e. summer time, you will have to fire the oil boiler and turn on the primary pump... In both cases, the DHW indirect pump would have to run too.

Does that make sense? So the indirect tank sits on a secondary loop with its own pump....and in any case, the primary loop pump has to be turned on and the DHW secondary pump. If the WG is hot, its pump is on. If the oil boiler has to fire, it fires.

 

[ewdudley]

Are those time AM or PM and what time zone are we in?
Sorry couldn't resist.

I followed you up to the part where 2.33 gpm is happy turning and yielding a net flow of 4.66
Where did those #'s come from and what is happy turning.
Wait I think I figured out happy turning but please explain it anyway.

Maybe I'm dating myself.

Do you know about the old kind of clocks with the big hand and the little hand and all that?

Suppose your primary loop is like the face of one of those old kind of clocks with the big hand and the little hand and all those numbers in a circle.

I believe the pump in your primary loop sends the water in a counterclockwise direction, that is to say the opposite direction that the big hand and the little hand go round and round on those old kind of clocks. Does your primary loop pump send the water counterclockwise?

For the purpose of describing where the pipes connect to your primary loop, would it make sense to say that the oil boiler lines connect to the primary loop at two points on either side of 9:00 o'clock? Now, it looks like the circ on the oil boiler pulls from '9:30' and returns to '8:30'. Is this true or not?

For the purpose of describing where the pipes connect to your primary loop, would it make sense to say that the wood boiler lines connect to the primary loop at two points on either side of 3:00 o'clock? Now, it looks like the circ on the wood boiler pulls from '2:30' and returns to '3:30'. Is this true or not?

For the purpose of describing where the pipes connect to your primary loop, would it make sense to say that the load lines pull from the primary loop at two points on either side of noon and return to two points on either side of 6:00? Now, it looks like one load pulls from '11:30' and returns to '6:30', while the other load pulls from '12:30' and returns to '5:30'. Is this true or not?

So now get a piece of paper and draw the primary loop and the four circuits that connect to it along with the five pumps. Then, for the purpose of analysis, suppose that the rate of flow of water entering and leaving each pump is as described above, and then work through where all the water has to go if all the flows are as described.

'Happy-turning' is a term-of-art. It describes any situation where something or someone is going through the motions to no effect, as with a child working a ratchet wrench roundy-round backwards because he likes the sound and it makes him happy. In your case, any of the flow that arrived from the wood boiler at 3:30 and then immediately returned from 2:30 without delivering any heat to the primary loop would be 'happy-turning' flow.

 

[bpirger]

So in other words, the WG hot water is coming in at 3:30 but much of it will leave the primary loop at 2:30, going back to the wood gun, without ever circulating around the primary loop! So you are NOT getting all the hot water in the primary loop from the WG, much of it goes right back to the WG.

But, if the wood gun hot water came INTO the primary loop at 2:30, and left the primary loop at 3:30 to go back to the WG, it would go all the way around the primary loop, heating up the primary loop fully, faster....

 

[goosegunner]

My primary loop is a U shape not circular, supply comes in on top and close T's on the bottom for zones then to return. Is there a reson to not do it that way?

gg

 

[ewdudley]

So in other words, the WG hot water is coming in at 3:30 but much of it will leave the primary loop at 2:30, going back to the wood gun, without ever circulating around the primary loop! So you are NOT getting all the hot water in the primary loop from the WG, much of it goes right back to the WG.

Yes, this is what I suspect, but can't be sure from the information available. If true it would help explain some of the performance problem.

But, if the wood gun hot water came INTO the primary loop at 2:30, and left the primary loop at 3:30 to go back to the WG, it would go all the way around the primary loop, heating up the primary loop fully, faster....

 

[bpirger]

Mike, how has the system been running in this somewhat colder weather?

 

[Gasifier]

My primary loop is a U shape not circular, supply comes in on top and close T's on the bottom for zones then to return. Is there a reson to not do it that way? gg

Now that you mention it GG, that is more like how my primary loop is. All 1-1/2" pipe from Gun and tank and back. Manifolds to zones, which are 3/4". Mike's Wood Gun is sort of trying to feed his primary loop from it's secondary loop status. The piping from Mike's Wood Gun is reduced to 1" or 1-1/4" (I can't remember which), and combined that with then feeding into primary loop from secondary loop status. I am not a pipe fitter/boiler man, that is for certain, but if those things are combined with a pumping and/or air problem like others are talking about, you could certainly see not getting the good performance from the system.

Any progress Mike? Had any good heat demand yet?

 

[huffdawg]

Heres where all the money went so far.
$ 8,800 for Wood Gun
$2,700 labor for installer ($80/hour) he worked by himself.
$2,800 plumbing parts
$900 flue pipe
$1,300 in materials for boiler room stuff.
$400 for 2 cords of wood that were supposed to be seasoned
I am allready looking for a storage tank or two or three, maybe I’ll be the guy with 1500 gallons or more of storage.

I forgot about the flue pipe (I had mine already because of wood stove) and all the material to change part of the garage over to boiler room. So minus the flue pipe, the garage conversion, and the wood, you are like 14,400ish. So you are doing fine. As far as the tank goes, I personally would go with a pressurized tank(s). Find a used, ASME rated tank(s). A tank that was once used as an air pressure tank will be nice and clean. Some use propane or other tanks. But either way, a pressurised system is simple. Once it is full, heated, and the air is out of the system, no worries after that. It will all come together for ya man. I think your green wood may be part of your problem. But just part of it. I think, if you are not getting very good heat, there is more problem going on there than just green wood.

What did you pay for your foam job? Gasser . Do you have 2 -200 gal. tanks or one 400

Huff

 

[Gasifier]

What did you pay for your foam job? Gasser . Do you have 2 -200 gal. tanks or one 400
Huff

The Froth-pak 180, which can cover about 200 board feet with 1†thick, cost me $369. Then I spent about $30 on a tyvek suit, which is optional. (Could use old clothing you don’t care about and be careful.) And hood to cover head and neck, $10. Then good mask or borrow a respirator. I had all the windows open in my basement with a box fan running so I did not breath anything in. A good N95 mask does the trick when you have good ventilation. It is expensive. But you can not beat the seal you get. I have one 400 gallon tank. Here is a link to a thread with pictures of my tank when done with insulation.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/81767/

 

[infinitymike]

Are those time AM or PM and what time zone are we in?
Sorry couldn't resist.

I followed you up to the part where 2.33 gpm is happy turning and yielding a net flow of 4.66
Where did those #'s come from and what is happy turning.
Wait I think I figured out happy turning but please explain it anyway.

Maybe I'm dating myself.

Do you know about the old kind of clocks with the big hand and the little hand and all that?

Yes I have seen them but they don't have an on and off switch so they are just stuck at one time. :cheese:

Suppose your primary loop is like the face of one of those old kind of clocks with the big hand and the little hand and all those numbers in a circle.

But my primary loop isn't a circle its more like a rectangle. :-S

I believe the pump in your primary loop sends the water in a counterclockwise direction, that is to say the opposite direction that the big hand and the little hand go round and round on those old kind of clocks. Does your primary loop pump send the water counterclockwise?

OK OK no more joking around. Yes it pumps counter clockwise.

For the purpose of describing where the pipes connect to your primary loop, would it make sense to say that the oil boiler lines connect to the primary loop at two points on either side of 9:00 o'clock? Now, it looks like the circ on the oil boiler pulls from '9:30' and returns to '8:30'. Is this true or not?

Actually the OB supplies to the loop above the return tee. So it supplies hot water at 9:30 and returns to the OB at 8:30

For the purpose of describing where the pipes connect to your primary loop, would it make sense to say that the wood boiler lines connect to the primary loop at two points on either side of 3:00 o'clock? Now, it looks like the circ on the wood boiler pulls from '2:30' and returns to '3:30'. Is this true or not?

The WG supplies to the loop below the return tee. So it supplies hot water at 3:30 and returns to the WG at 2:30

For the purpose of describing where the pipes connect to your primary loop, would it make sense to say that the load lines pull from the primary loop at two points on either side of noon and return to two points on either side of 6:00? Now, it looks like one load pulls from '11:30' and returns to '6:30', while the other load pulls from '12:30' and returns to '5:30'. Is this true or not?

Yes it is true.

So now get a piece of paper and draw the primary loop and the four circuits that connect to it along with the five pumps. Then, for the purpose of analysis, suppose that the rate of flow of water entering and leaving each pump is as described above, and then work through where all the water has to go if all the flows are as described.

'Happy-turning' is a term-of-art. It describes any situation where something or someone is going through the motions to no effect, as with a child working a ratchet wrench roundy-round backwards because he likes the sound and it makes him happy. Hey I still do that! :red: In your case, any of the flow that arrived from the wood boiler at 3:30 and then immediately returned from 2:30 without delivering any heat to the primary loop would be 'happy-turning' flow.

If I leave my OB and WG tees where they are and leave the load line where they are and flip the primary loop circ pump to flow clockwise, would that help.

Is there a benefit to move the supply and return lines of the 2 zones to be next to each other with closely spaced tees instead of at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock?

 

[infinitymike]

Sorry EWD,
I typed answers in red in between the text your reply but they didnt show up that way.

So here they are more clearly.

Yes it pumps counter clockwise.

Actually the OB supplies to the loop above the return tee. So it supplies hot water at 9:30 and returns to the OB at 8:30

The WG supplies to the loop below the return tee. So it supplies hot water at 3:30 and returns to the WG at 2:30

Yes it is true. The load lines are at pull out of the loop at noon and return back at 6

If I leave my OB and WG tees where they are and leave the load line where they are and flip the primary loop circ pump to flow clockwise, would that help.

Is there a benefit to move the supply and return lines of the 2 zones to be next to each other with closely spaced tees instead of at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock?

 

[infinitymike]

Mike, how has the system been running in this somewhat colder weather?

Believe it or not its still really warm here. Today was 62*. By Saturday we should be back to normal temps for this time of year are 40ish during day and 30ish at night.

Its ok , but I really don't know what to expect from the unit. I'm still trying to figure out when to burn and how much wood to use. and how big or small the splits should be.

I will say this I have burnt a lot of wood, almost 1/2 a cord well maybe a little less like 3/8 and I haven't burned everyday. I can't imagine how much I will use when it gets cold. :ahhh:
I have had 12 fires in 19 days.

Another thing I noticed is, there have been a few times when I have a decent bed of coals in the AM and load it up half way and go to work. I come home 7-8 hours later and the unit is cool with a water temp of 150*, I open the firebox and most of the load is there and it is all charred like charcoal. When I throw some paper in and light it up it ignites the wood(charcoal) fast and burns real clean and hot. there's no smoke immediately and the temp can get to 190 in a few minutes. But if the unit is 150* and I throw fresh wood in and light it up it has a ton of smoke for several minutes and can take more then double the time to raise the temp up. So I definitely need dryer wood. And then also need to address the plumbing issues.

 

[ewdudley]

If I leave my OB and WG tees where they are and leave the load line where they are and flip the primary loop circ pump to flow clockwise, would that help.

Nice! But I think you'd have to reverse the flow of both the load circulators as well. Would that be possible? Plus if you reversed the load pumps you'd be 'pumping away', which is sometimes necessary and always foolproof.

Otherwise all the hot wood boiler water entering at 3:30 will mix with the load return flows at 5:30 and 6:30. Then most of the mixed flow goes out the top to the loads and the rest of the mixed flow returns to the boiler at 2:30. Mixing hot boiler water with load return water would be another version of the problem you have now, so not good.

Is there a benefit to move the supply and return lines of the 2 zones to be next to each other with closely spaced tees instead of at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock?

Having them on opposite sides of the primary might work quite well in you situation.

Closely spaced tees will help guarantee that there won't be any unwanted parallel flows through idle loads, but I'm not convinced that is a problem you need to worry about in your system.

Also closely spaced tees will tend to prioritize your loads in the order that they pull from the primary loop, which could be an advantage, or not, depends on the type of loads and what your design goals are.

Hang in there, sounds like you may be able to get it straitened out without reworking any of the plumbing.

Cheers --ewd

 

[ewdudley]

... and flip the primary loop circ pump to flow clockwise...

Forgot to mention that if you flip the primary loop pump, then going by the book you'd need to flip the motor assembly on the volute as well in order to keep the junction box on top.