Wood Stove Sizing

[kborndale]

You have to have an air tight cap on the bottom of the liner. If you don't it will be sucking cold air up the chimney which will cool off your flue temps causing creosote to form in your chimney and lead to a chimney fire.

 

[stoveliker]

The cast iron door is not enough. You need a cap for the liner too.

So you never burned the previous stove?
If you did burn it, did it put out enough heat for you to be comfortable?

 

[begreen]

I just want to be clear that our cleanout itself does have a cap and that's that cast-iron cover. It's just not in the picture. So I want to make sure that when you say put a cap on the liner you mean on the actual metal liner and are not referring to a cast-iron cap that goes on (it is sort of a plate that just rests on two notches) the chimney cleanout entrance; it's just not in that picture because it was removed for the sake of the picture. Once again I apologize if I'm not getting something correct. I'm new at this and I really appreciate all the wise words you all have been sharing with me.

The cast iron door is not a tight seal. The liner itself needs to be capped.

In regards to the Jøtuls, is the stove box theory (larger = longer burn times because more fuel can be added at one) correct?

Yes, that's right. Right now on chilly nights I am burning just 4 split fires in the T6. In cold weather it gets a full belly.

 

[stoveliker]

Also the earlier remark that a noncat is good because one can burn a few splits without damaging stuff is bogus too.
I can burn 3 splits in my cat stove if I have to. I don't do it but it's fine.

That dealer is full of it.

 

[kborndale]

That dealer is full of it.

Unfortunately that is not unusual.

 

[BKVP]

OP, you can PM me dealer info and I'll see they get the training they need.

BKVP

 

[Upnort]

The cast iron door is not enough. You need a cap for the liner too.

So you never burned the previous stove?
If you did burn it, did it put out enough heat for you to be comfortable?

I did burn it. We hated it. It put enough heat out but burn times were super short. I think it would be more helpful had I never mentioned the Oakwood. It's an awful stove.

 

[Upnort]

OP, you can PM me dealer info and I'll see they get the training they need.

BKVP

Yes. I will do that. Thank you!

 

[Upnort]

Also the earlier remark that a noncat is good because one can burn a few splits without damaging stuff is bogus too.
I can burn 3 splits in my cat stove if I have to. I don't do it but it's fine.

That dealer is full of it.

I'm getting discouraged regarding the dealers here. It's Maine. You'd think there would be some accuracy and some consistency with wood stove knowledge from dealers. There are other Jotul dealers but only one other BK dealer. I will seek them at that one out.

 

[Upnort]

Unfortunately that is not unusual.

Ugh.

 

[Upnort]

The cast iron door is not a tight seal. The liner itself needs to be capped.


Yes, that's right. Right now on chilly nights I am burning just 4 split fires in the T6. In cold weather it gets a full belly.

Is capping it something I can easily do? Is there a certain kind of cap? The installer should have done that but he conveniently retired a month after installing.

Thank you for all this great info! Really appreciate it. One other thing then: regarding the Jotul, why wouldn't I want to get an f55 over the f45? I'm still not clear on why one would want to go smaller. Although maybe the f45 would be enough. I am very intrigued by BKs however, if my chimney setup is adequate.

 

[stoveliker]

I did burn it. We hated it. It put enough heat out but burn times were super short. I think it would be more helpful had I never mentioned the Oakwood. It's an awful stove.

Good to know. This IS helpful.
The point of asking is that someone who knows the stove (I have no time now to look it up) can find the maximum output of that thing, knowing that that is enough to heat your home.and compare that the stoves you are considering.
(And take into account that you want such output NOT running so high in the new stove, so that your reloading times are better.)

 

[Upnort]

Good to know. This IS helpful.
The point of asking is that someone who knows the stove (I have no time now to look it up) can find the maximum output of that thing, knowing that that is enough to heat your home.and compare that the stoves you are considering.
(And take into account that you want such output NOT running so high in the new stove, so that your reloading times are better.)

I see! That does make sense. And totally agree. The thing is we gave up on the Oakwood and decided we wanted a different stove (a cleaner one that would burn longer). We didn't buy the Oakwood. It was left behind and came with the house. We tried to use it (that's what made us discover this great forum!), but after laboring over it and burning periodic fires for a year and a half, this year we quit right before we got the new liner installed. The plan was to get a new stove with the new liner, but we got busy with life, and the winter was mild anyway. But we knew we would get a new stove (we are getting rid of our old oil boiler and getting heat pumps, but as mentioned earlier, we want a stove for heating season--whether sole source or supplemental--and for the many power outages we have here). Just really now having the time to search and question about stoves. The Oakwood did get hot but we could never get a burn to last more than a few hours (damper closed). It was/is a weird stove with many parts and doors and coal bed needing to be "just right," and just not worth wrestling with. But I guess if its BTU measurement was good for the house then that would make sense as far as sizing a new stove. We have considered that but can't really answer that. Not sure if that would tell us much regarding whether an F55 would be too much or of an F45 would be too little. At this point it seems a BK might be a better option, but our vertical stove pipe before the turn in chimney might *just* be 2 ft with one of those stoves. Everything else seems good tho. I'm not that experienced, but was hoping a good shop would be. But here I am. Truly you all have been immensely helpful.

 

[stoveliker]

Okay, a quick look tells me that I would rather go larger than smaller if that stove had to be run hard (often reloaded) to keep you warm, especially with a chimney that's not very tall (i.e. unlikely that high draft would pull heat.out of the stove).

I.e. if it could keep you warm but you had to reload often, it's at the upper end of its intended output range.

 

[begreen]

I know the Oakwood and was excited when it first came out. For a while I was considering getting one but it turned out to have the same issues as the non-cat VC stoves. If the Harman did a decent job of heating the place then either the F45 or the F55 would work. There is not a huge difference in the size between the two. The F45 has a slightly larger firebox than the Oakwood and it can be loaded N/S to use the full capacity of the firebox. The .4 cu ft additional capacity of the F55 will provide a bit longer burn and a bit higher output when pushed for heat. The Oakwood is highly radiant. The Jotuls being considered are much more convective in design. Either of these Jotuls should provide a more even heat than the Harman which will mean less room temperature swing between loads.

 

[stoveliker]

But if they ran it hard (few hrs reloads), don't they need a larger one to get longer reload times?
One that can sustain similar outputs for longer times?


Of coarse this assumes the burning they did was as the stove was.suppposed to run.

 

[begreen]

But if they ran it hard (few hrs reloads), don't they need a larger one to get longer reload times?
One that can sustain similar outputs for longer times?


Of coarse this assumes the burning they did was as the stove was.suppposed to run.

It's hard to say. The short burn times could be due to a failing or failed combustion package in the stove. The refractory in that stove often didn't last more than 5 yrs. Given that this is in Maine, I agree with you and would go large. It's nice to have the additional top end when needed and the larger firebox lends itself to more flexible loading options (N/S & E/W).

 

[Upnort]

It's hard to say. The short burn times could be due to a failing or failed combustion package in the stove. The refractory in that stove often didn't last more than 5 yrs. Given that this is in Maine, I agree with you and would go large. It's nice to have the additional top end when needed and the larger firebox lends itself to more flexible loading options (N/S & E/W).

Would there be any risk of more creosote with burning smaller fires? I don't know how the previous owners used the Oakwood stove but many things were not done correctly by them with the house (that's another separate issue). According to the manuals the Oakwood and the F45 both have 2.3 fireboxes. But yes our Oakwood had the issues you explained. It just isn't a smartly designed stove and yes the pure cast iron and temperature swings were awful. I wish I ever mentioned it since we never fully used it and it is so different than these stoves I'm looking at. (We didn't run the Oakwood hard. It had several issues that I don't want to waste time on here because it doesn't matter. It's no longer in use. We need a new stove. The consensus on the Oakwood no matter who we had come out to service it was that it was a "POS" and a poor design. We eventually agreed. )

Would there be a risk of more creosote issues if we got the F55 but didn't burn bigger fires? Thanks again!

 

[Upnort]

Okay, a quick look tells me that I would rather go larger than smaller if that stove had to be run hard (often reloaded) to keep you warm, especially with a chimney that's not very tall (i.e. unlikely that high draft would pull heat.out of the stove).

I.e. if it could keep you warm but you had to reload often, it's at the upper end of its intended output range.

We had to reload it because it ate wood and when damped down it didn't last long either. Again I don't want to relive the many issues with that prior stove. It was finicky beyond belief and all troubleshooting was done with it (by us and by dealer technicians). The decision was it was a poor design and needed too much in terms of replacement parts and general maintenance. But it did throw a lot of heat and our place did get warm. The HO just couldn't sustain a burn but again, it had issues. If BTU output is a factor then the f45 would heat us fine but I'm wondering if there is incentive to just get the f55 if it would give us longer burn times when needed. Of course if it would blast us out of the house most times and we ended up just doing smaller fires, would there be a risk there? That's what I don't quite understand. Why would it be that much hotter than the f45? Isn't heat more determined by wood? These stoves are made out of the same materials. The difference is stove box size. That's what confuses me. Some dealers say the f55 would blast us and others say no, if you want longer burn times you need more box and you can just build smaller fires. This is where I feel I need more clarity. :|

 

[Todd]

You should be able to burn clean smaller half load fires fine in either stove. I’ve done it for take the chill off fires and I’ve also burned half loads hot about every 6 hours when it gets extremely cold to keep those stove temps hot. Mostly I try and stick to full loads and keep an 8-12 hour burning schedule. I think either Jotul stove will work for you.

 

[begreen]

Would there be any risk of more creosote with burning smaller fires?

It shouldn't be but it depends on how one burns. I find that properly constructed small fires actually heat up faster. I am turning down the air for a 4 split starting fire in about 8 minutes with good dry wood. As long as the flue temps are hot enough there is little to worry about creosote build up.

For a small hot fire I am building it Lincoln log style. With two, dry, N/S splits about 4" apart. Put some paperwads and a little dry kindling on top between the splits. Then put two E/W splits on top, also about 4" apart. Put a little more kindling in the middle and light. With dry doug fir, this fire starts up quickly. It burns for about 4 hrs. which is enough to warm up the house before the sun does.

 

[Upnort]

You should be able to burn clean smaller half load fires fine in either stove. I’ve done it for take the chill off fires and I’ve also burned half loads hot about every 6 hours when it gets extremely cold to keep those stove temps hot. Mostly I try and stick to full loads and keep an 8-12 hour burning schedule. I think either Jotul stove will work for you.

Why would the f55 supposedly be so much hotter then? or at least that is what I was told by an opposing dealer, that the f55 would be too much for our house and we'd be blasted out by it. But the stove box isn't that much bigger than then the f45 and both stoves are made of the same material. I guess I don't understand this concept/theory. Why wouldn't one just go bigger? Thanks again for the good info (and your patience!).

 

[Upnort]

You have to have an air tight cap on the bottom of the liner. If you don't it will be sucking cold air up the chimney which will cool off your flue temps causing creosote to form in your chimney and lead to a chimney fire.

Is this just a basic type of cap that can just be placed on the end? I'm not handy in these ways, but I'm sure I can manage that, tho I don't know what sort of cap I should be looking for. Does anything get added to make it air tight?

 

[stoveliker]

Why would the f55 supposedly be so much hotter then? or at least that is what I was told by an opposing dealer, that the f55 would be too much for our house and we'd be blasted out by it. But the stove box isn't that much bigger than then the f45 and both stoves are made of the same material. I guess I don't understand this concept/theory. Why wouldn't one just go bigger? Thanks again for the good info (and your patience!).

It's not the stove material. It's the air control that determines the range of heat outputs with a stove.
The box size then determines the length of time it can maintain that heat output.

Stoves have a lower limit heat output that is still safe (clean) burning, and a max heat output where things don't get too hot.

Stoves brochures often provide the max output but not the minimum output. On max the f55 may cook you out of the room, the question is whether it is able to burn low enough to not do so.
I think it would be fine.

 

[bigealta]

A pic or 2 of the interior and stove room would help.