Will a Block Off Plate/Roxul Fix This...Help!!!!

[NewHarmanOwner]

Yes...I was waiting for someone to let me know the is just the wood? Fact is...I've read this so many times on this site that I've become paranoid about not putting anything in the insert that isn't split open and double checked with a moisture reader on the fresh split! I have been using a combination of Kiln dried wood (split open and double checked readings) and 4 year seasoned wood from a neighbor who was king enough to help me out (also double checked with a moisture reader...all wood burned has been <20%...most around 15%! After repeatedly going thru burn cycles from a cold start and watching it take 90 to 120 minutes to get the thermostat on the insert to cruising temps...I am convinced either the magnetic thermostat is completely wrong or I'm just loosing heat into the masonry & flu. I bet you if I went out and got a pile of lumber scraps & pallets...burned them and reported the same problem, someone on this site is going to tell me..."it's the wood." Sorry, just frustrated!

I think your wood is not dry enough.....

Just joking with you. So I've attached two pictures for reference to show how much temperature can vary using different devices.

My Rutland thermometer, which is similar to yours is reading slightly above 400f, but my IR pointing at the top is showing well over 500f. That over 100f difference. So the point is that fire doesn't burn evenly and it'll vary depending on where you measure. I wouldn't get all wrapped up on the stove temperature, but focus on getting it insulated and the rest will take care of itself.

Best of luck.

 

[Supersurvey]

I think your wood is not dry enough.....

Just joking with you. So I've attached two pictures for reference to show how much temperature can vary using different devices.

My Rutland thermometer, which is similar to yours is reading slightly above 400f, but my IR pointing at the top is showing well over 500f. That over 100f difference. So the point is that fire doesn't burn evenly and it'll vary depending on where you measure. I wouldn't get all wrapped up on the stove temperature, but focus on getting it insulated and the rest will take care of itself.

Best of luck.

Can you post a few pictures during a full load? When reduced to coals I often get blue flame with no blockoff plate although I do agree all should have one.

 

[jscs.moore]

I think your wood is not dry enough.....

Just joking with you. So I've attached two pictures for reference to show how much temperature can vary using different devices.

My Rutland thermometer, which is similar to yours is reading slightly above 400f, but my IR pointing at the top is showing well over 500f. That over 100f difference. So the point is that fire doesn't burn evenly and it'll vary depending on where you measure. I wouldn't get all wrapped up on the stove temperature, but focus on getting it insulated and the rest will take care of itself.

Best of luck.

Thanks for the feedback! I picked up my IR gun today and will use it along with the Condor magnetic thermometer to gauge temps. My guess is you are right that the Condor is probably reading 100 degrees or so lower than the actual firebox temp. I also plan on using the IR gun to check the temp on the flu collar to give me a better understanding of how hot it's burning. Either way...next step is the block off plate & Roxul insulation when I can get some time & help to do it. Even if it's not the whole solution, I want to make sure I've done everything to make sure I'm getting the maximum heat out of the insert. This has been one hell of a learning experience

 

[jscs.moore]

Take advantage of the warm day today to pull the insert and install the insulation & block off plate, temps are going to take a dive on Sunday night.

Yes...I'd love to but I'm essentially a mechanical moron and if there is any way to screw it up I would. So right now I'm waiting to see if the dealer can install one. If he won't...I am going to get some help from my brother who could fabricate and install the block off plate very easily, I do have one question on pulling out the HI300? Have you had any problems getting the cast iron surround off...I remember to two techs who installed mine seemed to have a bit of a time getting the top surround in correctly. Other question is, does it make sense to take the door off first to lighten the load before pulling the insert...again, I remember the two techs really struggling with the weight of it during the install? Thanks for your feedback!

 

[rwhite]

If you pull the surround you may be able to get a 2 piece plate in without having to pull it.

 

[jscs.moore]

Thanks! I'll have to look into a 2 piece...not having to pull the insert would make life easier.

 

[jophysx]

Taking off the surround on my HI300 was easy. FWIW. Just follow the instruction in the manual.

 

[jscs.moore]

Taking off the surround on my HI300 was easy. FWIW. Just follow the instruction in the manual.

Thanks Jim! Your posts (as a fellow HI300 owner) have always been very helpful in my learning this insert. I believe you mentioned in past posts that you waited on the block off plate & insulation for a few years? If so, did you see a significant difference when you finally put the plate and Roxul in?? I don't want to over play this as a solution, but I do think I have to be losing heat to the masonry and flu? And I have to think the insert will kick out more heat with a block off plate and insulation?

 

[NewHarmanOwner]

If you pull the surround you may be able to get a 2 piece plate in without having to pull it.

Anything other than pulling out the insert and measure out the inset and top plate, you're just jury rigging it. You should form fit the firebox with insulation behind, around and top.

 

[rwhite]

Anything other than pulling out the insert and measure out the inset and top plate, you're just jury rigging it. You should form fit the firebox with insulation behind, around and top.

I'll disagree. If you have room to work and make a cardboard template there is no reason it can't be done correctly.

 

[NewHarmanOwner]

I'll disagree. If you have room to work and make a cardboard template there is no reason it can't be done correctly.

How do you propose to see insulate behind the insert? In an exterior chimney, you are losing heat both above and behind, especially during colder weather..

 

[rwhite]

How do you propose to see insulate behind the insert? In an exterior chimney, you are losing heat both above and behind, especially during colder weather..

Like I said "if you have room to work". I have plenty on my insert when the surround is pulled off.

 

[Bagelboy]

You don't have to be handy to put Roxul around your insert. Just shove it all around. In the back, the sides, and yes, even though some may disagree, even on top of it. Also shove some up into the chimney. Though this may not be the blockoff plate your waiting to get help with, it will give you a strong idea as to the box losing temperature, and you should notice a big difference. Like I said, you don't have to be all that handy to put the insulation in all around the box.

 

[jscs.moore]

How do you propose to see insulate behind the insert? In an exterior chimney, you are losing heat both above and behind, especially during colder weather..

Thanks...good question. I have been getting an education on this site and will definitely will get some help and have this job done soon. I have read her that you can also use Roxul around the insert as well as on top of the block off plate? I think I also read on this site about some kind of insulation board that can be used as well. I definitely want to make sure the job is don right so will research and plan as carefully as I can. I just really think the block off plate & insulation will make a significant difference! If you have any knowledge of the best way to insulate around/behind the insert please let me know?

 

[jscs.moore]

You don't have to be handy to put Roxul around your insert. Just shove it all around. In the back, the sides, and yes, even though some may disagree, even on top of it. Also shove some up into the chimney. Though this may not be the blockoff plate your waiting to get help with, it will give you a strong idea as to the box losing temperature, and you should notice a big difference. Like I said, you don't have to be all that handy to put the insulation in all around the box.

Thanks...all the feedback is very helpful with planning how I will do this job. I definitely will get help, pull the insert and put in the block off plate & insulation around the insert and on top of the plate. I've read that the Roxul batt insulation 3.5" is good for insulating around inserts? Didn't know you could or should put it directly on top of the insert...unless you just mean until the block off plate is installed. Also heard about different types of insulation board that can be used around the insert...any recommendations?

 

[Jearley35purdue]

I think its the wood.

Agreed. Had the same problem last year, no block off plate, much better wood this year and the performance is peak. Block off will help but not solve wet wood.

 

[NewHarmanOwner]

Thanks...all the feedback is very helpful with planning how I will do this job. I definitely will get help, pull the insert and put in the block off plate & insulation around the insert and on top of the plate. I've read that the Roxul batt insulation 3.5" is good for insulating around inserts? Didn't know you could or should put it directly on top of the insert...unless you just mean until the block off plate is installed. Also heard about different types of insulation board that can be used around the insert...any recommendations?

So here is my concern about placing Roxul directly over and around the insert. Since this is an insert, you're pulling air through fan for bothe primary and secondary burn, if you wrap Roxul directly over the insert, I would suspect that some fiber particles would be pulled in right?

I would not be concerned if it was a stove sitting in the firebox, but insert has to blow air back in to living space, which I don't think it would be good to have those particulates floating around the room and breathing in.

Obviously, I want to caveat that I don't know where the secondary air intake gets its fresh air and I don't know where the airflow for insert exhaust come from, but I like to take caution, since I have two young children in the area. So currently, I have a cement board blocking in the back of the insert and on top, but I'm looking to get some high temperature insulation blanket and wrap the insert.

 

[jscs.moore]

So here is my concern about placing Roxul directly over and around the insert. Since this is an insert, you're pulling air through fan for bothe primary and secondary burn, if you wrap Roxul directly over the insert, I would suspect that some fiber particles would be pulled in right?

I would not be concerned if it was a stove sitting in the firebox, but insert has to blow air back in to living space, which I don't think it would be good to have those particulates floating around the room and breathing in.

Obviously, I want to caveat that I don't know where the secondary air intake gets its fresh air and I don't know where the airflow for insert exhaust come from, but I like to take caution, since I have two young children in the area. So currently, I have a cement board blocking in the back of the insert and on top, but I'm looking to get some high temperature insulation blanket and wrap the insert.

Thanks...yes, I read different things on this site about putting the Roxul directly around the insert? I guess some type of insulation board might be better for that purpose? But again, this is all new to me so I'm just try to gather all the info I can to plan this out. I definitely heard Roxul is the best insulation to place on top of the block off plate so I definitely will do that.

 

[jetsam]

So here is my concern about placing Roxul directly over and around the insert. Since this is an insert, you're pulling air through fan for bothe primary and secondary burn, if you wrap Roxul directly over the insert, I would suspect that some fiber particles would be pulled in right?

Check out what mellow did in this thread. I am going to do the same thing this spring! He posted some great pics in the thread.

 

[jscs.moore]

Thanks for the feedback! I picked up my IR gun today and will use it along with the Condor magnetic thermometer to gauge temps. My guess is you are right that the Condor is probably reading 100 degrees or so lower than the actual firebox temp. I also plan on using the IR gun to check the temp on the flu collar to give me a better understanding of how hot it's burning. Either way...next step is the block off plate & Roxul insulation when I can get some time & help to do it. Even if it's not the whole solution, I want to make sure I've done everything to make sure I'm getting the maximum heat out of the insert. This has been one hell of a learning experience

Okay...I've been burning steadily since yesterday and have been checking temps with the new IR gun compared to the Condor magnetic thermometer. Essentially, the IR gun will read a little higher during start up/from a cold start (about 50 degrees higher). But once the insert finally gets up to cruising temps (about 450 to 500) the IR gun seems to read just about the same temps as the Condor? When I can keep the insert in the 450 to 500 range all is well...it's kicking out great heat with excellent secondaries coming off the baffles and my electric heat pump is NOT on. But...and this is a big but...I noticed when the temps starting getting into teens last night, I had a hard time getting the insert back up to cruising temps if I let the fire burn down to coaling phase. So essentially if I try and just let it go thru a 4/5 hour burn cycle (after loading the firebox up to the gills)...the firebox temps drop down too quickly and I am fighting to eventually get it back up to cruising temps. Again...just thinking I'm basically losing too much heat into the masonry and up the flu without the block plate and insulation...especially when it gets really frigid out. The most disappointing thing right now was having my heat pump kicking back on when the insert firebox temp would drop below 400 degrees. Again I have a very well insulated house, just under 2000Sq.ft & brand new high efficiency windows...and this insert is rated to heat this size home (the dealer certainly told me that)!

 

[mellow]

Since this is an insert, you're pulling air through fan for bothe primary and secondary burn, if you wrap Roxul directly over the insert, I would suspect that some fiber particles would be pulled in right?

No, only air that is pulled within the firebox is for the secondary air that goes to the burn tubes, air for the blower runs from the front bottom to the front top, inserts are wrapped in a metal sleeve to blow the air around and out. No concern for fibers getting sucked up within the firebox and blown out. The surround keeps them in the firebox.

The issue with putting Roxul directly on top of the insert is overheating, it is good to have at least a 1" gap above the insert as per what I was told from stove vendors. The block off plate would take care of this.

 

[mellow]

Again...just thinking I'm basically losing too much heat into the masonry and up the flu without the block plate and insulation

Have you gone outside and tested the temps on your brick yet?

 

[jscs.moore]

Have you gone outside and tested the temps on your brick yet?

Yes...I wrote down the temps. Just before starting the fire from a cold start I pointed the IR gun at the outside chimney just about where the back of the insert would be...it read 19 degrees. I then built a really good top/down initial fire, then after about 40 minutes reloaded the firebox (N/S) full of dry splits and waiting until the insert was up to cruising temp (on the IR gun & Condor), which still took about 70 minutes! I then went back outside and pointed the IR gun in the exact same spot on the outside chimney and it read...18 degrees?? I know the outside temps were dropping quickly at that time of day...so I'm not sure if the readings really tell me anything??

 

[mellow]

It takes a while for that brick to heat up in the back, wait till after 4 hours of continuous burning then measure the temp.

 

[slayer7]

Yes...I wrote down the temps. Just before starting the fire from a cold start I pointed the IR gun at the outside chimney just about where the back of the insert would be...it read 19 degrees. I then built a really good top/down initial fire, then after about 40 minutes reloaded the firebox (N/S) full of dry splits and waiting until the insert was up to cruising temp (on the IR gun & Condor), which still took about 70 minutes! I then went back outside and pointed the IR gun in the exact same spot on the outside chimney and it read...18 degrees?? I know the outside temps were dropping quickly at that time of day...so I'm not sure if the readings really tell me anything??

I dunno. Something still seems to be wrong here. If you have an initial fire, then are doing a full reload on a bed of coals, the insert should be up and cruising around 500-600* in short order something like 10-15 minutes maybe 20 tops. When I do that with my insert, I have trouble keeping the temp under control as it shoots right up to 600-700* in no time even with cutting the air all the way closed. The cats piled in front of it start to smell like Chinese food. If I left it open for 70 minutes there would be a molten pile of slag in the disintegrated chimney and some small assorted charred skeletons on the floor there. Something is amiss in this set up, either with draft, the insert or (I know, I know) the wood. I know we were working with the theory here that the flue without the block-off plate and insulation is stealing your heat and that's surely a possibility but would manifest itself more in the way of not heating your house sufficiently overall and not with the stovetop taking forever and a day to get up to a temperature.