Wife wants mini-split for bedroom/hallway, options

[Ashful]

estimate came in:

option 1: 1 head unit: $5490 installed, MUZ-GE12NA / MSZ-GE12NA
option 2: 2 head unit: $7455 installed, MXZ-GE12NA/ MSZ-GE12NA, MSZ-GE09NA

That is just CRAZY expensive, based on our local pricing. I've had many of these quoted, and have had three installed. In fact, I just had your option 1 (same exact model numbers) installed at about $3k. I had three outfits quote, and they were all $2900 - $3200.

 

[Ashful]

Just dug up the quote for the last install:

 

[peakbagger]

I can pull my receipts and go through them again but the last time I looked it was $2,200 for the AC unit and all the pieces. I got a price from a southern NH installer that Home Depot recommended and the price was $4,800 (assuming I ran the power to a disconnect on the wall). When I pushed back he dropped to $4,500. This was for a wall mount. I bought an overpriced premade line set that I suspect the installer would pay far less. I bought the one ton hyper heat with the highest efficiency to get the max NH rebate. I didn't buy a commercial wall mount I used unistrut and mounted it about 4' up off the ground. A commercial moutn would have taken less time so the cost would offset the extra labor. The line set runs in the vinyl snap on gutter that pros use. It took me 6 hours to build the outside rack, install it and set the outdoor unit in place and about an two hours to install the steel template on the interior wall and drill the holes and a couple of hours to wire things. I don't have the right tools on hand so there was a lot or wasted effort. The crew who I hired to purge and pump the lines had been putting them in several months and they claimed they could do it in 4 hours plus travel. Sure the OP may have had a lot of extras I didn't have but I still think there is plenty of profit in the job.

 

[mass_burner]

Just dug up the quote for the last install:

View attachment 134516

what does "Power wiring not included" mean?

 

[mass_burner]

Just dug up the quote for the last install:

View attachment 134516

also, when was this quote given?

 

[mass_burner]

I think you are being a big conservative there. You don't know what all is included in that quote, how long the runs are, etc. 8 man hours seems pretty optimistic to mount both units, run refrigerant piping, power wiring, condensate piping. Could be cutting and patching for line set installation (but I doubt it). You don't know if they are putting it on a nice raised stand or dropping it on pressure treated sleepers. Plus does your $2300 include the linesets, drain piping, breakers, wiring. Plus don't forget overhead. .

Sure, you could do it cheaper DIY, but I think its wrong to imply that the contractor is making a killing with "that sort of markup". The pricing looks about right.

OP, your outdoor unit model number for the multizone option looks wrong.

sorry:

option 1: 1 head unit: $5490 installed, MUZ-GE12NA / MSZ-GE12NA
option 2: 2 head unit: $7455 installed, MXZ-2B2ONA/ MSZ-GE12NA, MSZ-GE09NA

all power and control wiring
all refrigerant and condensate piping
start up and check system
precast concrete pad rear of house on ground with crushed stone
electrical run is about 60'. panel and new unit are opposite ends of the house.

 

[mass_burner]

sorry:

option 1: 1 head unit: $5490 installed, MUZ-GE12NA / MSZ-GE12NA
option 2: 2 head unit: $7455 installed, MXZ-2B2ONA/ MSZ-GE12NA, MSZ-GE09NA

all power and control wiring
all refrigerant and condensate piping
start up and check system
precast concrete pad rear of house on ground with crushed stone
electrical run is about 60'. panel and new unit are opposite ends of the house.

labor and materials 1 year warranty
compressor/all other parts 7 years warranty.

 

[peakbagger]

If they are putting it on a pad, you might as well not get the heat pump option as on a pad it will get filled with snow quickly in the winter. Generally units intended for heating are mounted up off the ground and preferably out of the prevailing wind on the sunny side of the house which is contrary to what you would normally do for something intended for summer cooling. I installed temporary roof over mine mostly for snow but it does shade it somewhat in the summer but its still on the warm side of my house.

 

[Ashful]

what does "Power wiring not included" mean?

also, when was this quote given?

I always insist on supplying power from the electrical panel to the outside disconnect box myself. "Power wiring not included," simply means I'm pulling the wiring from the sub panel to where they put the outdoor unit on the pad, and they handle everything else from there.

This quote was given June 17, 2013, so almost exactly 1 year ago. I've installed several of these over the last 4 years, using different installers each time, and the price is always right around $3k for a single MSZ/MUZ-GE12NA combo. Your pricing almost made me fall out of my chair! I can't say what the equipment itself costs, as I've always had them quoted with installation.

If they are putting it on a pad, you might as well not get the heat pump option as on a pad it will get filled with snow quickly in the winter.

This is one that has always had me curious. Mine are installed on a pad with a heat pump option, and you'd think they'd freeze up something fierce in deep snow. But, no... the snow just seems to never pile up around them, or melt off very quickly if it does. When I go outside the morning after a big snow storm, snow might be as deep as the outdoor unit in all directions, but there's always a clear area around the unit itself. Doesn't make sense... as it should really be colder around the unit, unless you're operating at NEGATIVE efficiency (i.e. worse than resistance heating).

 

[woodgeek]

But, Joful, MA does get a bit more snow than we do. I have 8" legs under my outdoor (non-mini) unit with a vertical fan. I think I have seen them with minis too. I figure you're ok because of the horizontal fan axis.

Siting is important....avoid areas that will get snow shed from the roof. Wind sheltering saves on defrost. I think sun/shade is unimportant.

 

[woodgeek]

The PO upgraded to a new Buderus burner/storage tank in 2007. Estimate to switch to NG, even with subsidiies, was 14k. I couldn't see ripping out a very efficient burner and paying 14k to do it. I put in another insert instead. I've used 215 gals since 11/5/13, probably can make it to 11/5/14 with 50 more gals. Hot water with oil too, but that takes very little.

Good god man....this sounds crazy to me. Why not just put a point source gas appliance to use for wood backup. Some of those can be pretty cheap....certainly not $14k. And the oil DHW takes very little? Huh?

 

[moey]

And the oil DHW takes very little? Huh?

A properly sized modern boiler is actually pretty good at making DHW. The problem for most people is both rarely go hand in hand.

 

[woodgeek]

A properly sized modern boiler is actually pretty good at making DHW. The problem for most people is both rarely go hand in hand.

I've just never seen one.....details.

 

[Highbeam]

This is a great thread but it is buried in the gas forum. As near as i can tell it never had anything to do with gas.

 

[Ashful]

A properly sized modern boiler is actually pretty good at making DHW. The problem for most people is both rarely go hand in hand.

I have a fairly modern properly sized boiler. It takes almost a gallon of oil a day to heat DHW, which doesn 't sound that bad, until you consider how warm it makes the basement, and remember your AC has to remove all those spare BTUs leaking upstairs.

Oh, was just out in the room with the latest mini split install. It's above the window, Mitsubishi MSZ GE12NA:

 

[BrotherBart]

It takes almost a gallon of oil a day to heat DHW, which doesn 't sound that bad,..

Or when you consider that the price of a gallon of oil is around the cost of electricity for a day for this all electric house. On a high use day.

 

[Ashful]

Yeah... I really need to get around to the HPWH... just always too busy with other more interesting projects.

 

[moey]

I've just never seen one.....details.

Im not advocating oil for hot water. Its expensive on a BTU cost even if everything is perfect. If you look at some of the threads on heatinghelp.com discussing hot water production lots of folks who have monitors on their oil systems use 1/4 gallon or less. The trick seems to having a system that modulates able to put out low BTU or have a boiler that most contractors would actually consider undersize for your house. i.e it may not keep up when its -20F outside. Most folks have a 75k btu boiler which is huge in most houses.

Back to mini splits sorry to derail....

 

[Ashful]

OT... But well stated, nonetheless. I get the same, "you're heating this whole house with that little thing?!?" sort Of reaction from everyone who sees my boiler. Size it for your 80% requirement, then have supplemental sources for those infrequent very cold nights.

 

[mass_burner]

Good god man....this sounds crazy to me. Why not just put a point source gas appliance to use for wood backup. Some of those can be pretty cheap....certainly not $14k. And the oil DHW takes very little? Huh?

would this provide cooling too?

 

[mass_burner]

OK, I'm getting at least 2 more quotes. Let's take a poll, with the specifics provided, is this quote too high and by how much?

 

[woodgeek]

would this provide cooling too?

Fair enough. For cooling, a minisplit will be great. Size it to cool the whole house, and put it near the bedrooms. As for the cost...presumably when you bought your house it was cheaper for not having central AC....you have to pay to get that.

I just wasn't buying that oil heat+DHW somehow made sense because the PO laid down a bundle on a nice oil system, and someone else told you a gas system would cost $14k. I want to see some numbers on operating costs....if you wanted to switch to gas, I expect you could swap out the oil boiler for a good bit less than $14k, or put in a gas room heater appliance, and the ROI in reduced fuel costs would be substantial.....IF you were not burning wood.

Of course, I am a huge minisplit fan (despite having a conventional ASHP myself). With the need for AC and existing wood heating capabilities....yes of course a properly sized mini or two is a great approach. You get good AC (quiet, no window rattlers, like central), and shoulder season BTUs that is cheaper than CSD wood.

You could take it slow...get one mini now for AC and shoulder, get a second one in a few years, and then you could cover your heating needs, ditch the oil system all together and become a recreational wood burner.

But I would also go for an electric, gas or HP/hybrid water heater, and keep that oil burner shut down except for the coldest nights of the year and backup for travel.

 

[moey]

You live in Mass keep that in mind when making comparisons.

 

[mass_burner]

You live in Mass keep that in mind when making comparisons.

no only in MA, but the town has it own "special" markup too.

 

[Ashful]

no only in MA, but the town has it own "special" markup too.

Yikes. Every time I go to New England, I'm temporarily stunned by how expensive things are up there. I still don't understand the $5k'ish quotes, though. The equipment cost would be the same nationally, and I believe I must have paid about $2k for the equipment, given our local labor costs of $500/man/day and having two men for a full day on the install.