Why so much hate over electric vehicles?

[DBoon]

This isnt meant to bash anyone, but the whole balance of ice vs electric is feeble to me, the US grid isnt ready

What's not ready? Front-of-meter electricity consumption has been flat for 10+ years. 100% EV adoption will increase electricity consumption by about 25%, and that will take years to get there. All of what you describe has nothing to do with meeting current or future demand but just common-sense things that should be done to increase reliability (e.g., tree trimming). Distributed generation mitigates a lot of need for new transmission lines, and time-of-use demand rates could solve most (if not all) of any remaining (and mostly mythical) demand vs. supply problems.

Most of the "grid can't handle EVs" stories are just made up propaganda from those who just don't benefit from EVs (e.g., oil companies) or those who are just against EVs for political reasons (e.g., Fox News, WSJ editorial page). When there are big blackouts (e.g., Texas last winter) it has nothing to do with EVs (or the other bugaboo - solar and wind generation) but has everything to do with atrocious policies that result in terrible grid reliability (i.e., not winterizing power plants and the natural gas distribution system).

 

[EbS-P]

Absolutely. It's hard to do a real direct comparison because I was replacing an inferior quality car with one that was much higher quality.

I'm working from memory, but I'll put this out there (and I am sure it will be challenged and/or generate complaints about the incentives)

	ICE Compact Car (e.g., Mazda 3)	Chevy Bolt
MSRP	$27,000 decently equipped	$42,000, absolutely loaded
Incentive	$0	$7500 Federal, $2000 NY
Price after Incentive	$27,000	$32,500
Features	Decently equipped	Absolutely loaded
MPG/MPGe	40 mpg	120 MPGe (estimated) or ~4 mi/kWh
Mileage driven/year	20,000 miles	20,000 miles
Fuel Price	$3.50/gallon	$0.12/kWh
Fuel Cost/Year	$1,750	$600
Insurance Cost/Year	$1,000	$1,000 (yeah, same - no difference)
Maintenance Cost/Year - Years 1-5	$1,000 (estimated)	$600 (tires cost a little more)
Maintenance Cost/Year - Years 6-10	$1,800 (estimated)	$1,000
200,000 mile cost of ownership	$63,5000	$51,500
Ride/Wind Noise	Not Terrible	Very Quiet
Cornering Ability	Average	Excellent (low center of gravity)
Acceleration	Below Average	Excellent (6 second 0-60 mph)
Interior Room - people and stuff	Below Average / Small (hatchback)	Large
Fun Factor	Not Very	High

I think I said payback was 80,000 miles. The above supports that. TCO for 200k miles is very favorable.

Note that I bought the Bolt before it became heavily discounted. I have friends buying used ones for $21k with 25,000 miles on them (this year). Also, I didn't include the cost of my Level 2 charger ($2k where I lived at the time, now I charge in my barn with a 3.3 kWh TurboCord plugged into a 240V/20A outlet - TurboCord cost $200).

Current IRS mileage is 66.5 cents per mile. So basically the first 100k miles you of the efficient ICE is the expected lifetime. As far as the government sees things. Doubling fuel costs adds about 26k miles to the break even point.

Ie most cars don’t see mileage beyond 126k miles.

 

[sloeffle]

100k miles isn't too tough to get to without unforeseen maintenance items, but between 100-200k and definitely 150-200k, things start to age out, regardless of brand, and my comment is really directed at the 100k+ maintenance.

I’m not trying to veer the topic off thread but I must have good luck with my vehicles. Even between 100k - 200k when I sell and trade them off I rarely have to do much work on them. Wheel bearing on one car and the Toyota’s seem to have issues with struts. Living on a crappy gravel road probably has something to do with that. Other than those few things over the last few vehicles, just normal maintenance.

Knock on wood…

 

[DBoon]

My 1996 Saturn had 275,000 miles on it when I sold it, and my 2002 Saturn had 250,000 miles on it when I sold it. Both were manual transmissions, which helps to get them to that kind of mileage (first Saturn needed a clutch - wife drove it on occasion, 2nd car never needed a clutch). In both cases, I was going to get $250 as a trade-in and (likely) crush so I found someone who needed an economical, well-maintained car for nearly zero money. Both those cars were driven for a long time after. The 2002 was rolled down a hill in the Adirondacks at 300k miles and he had it towed out and drove it home (crushed roof pillarsand cracked windshield). It was sad to see it go that way, but he lived to tell about it and drove it home as well (go figure).

My Chevy Sonic had 150,000 miles (5 years old) when I sold it after I bought my Bolt. It is still being driven. Guy who bought it then had a 1990 Honda Civic that he wasn't going to get to pass the next inspection.

When you live in a less wealthy rural area and where labor is cheaper and/or you are mechanically inclined, older vehicles have strong appeal. And judging by the condition and sound of some of the vehicles driving by my house, I would guess that the local car inspection process is ignored if you know where to go to get your car its yearly safety inspection.

So I have a lot of experience in driving well past 150,000 (mostly highway) miles and live near a lot of people who drive older cars. The reality is that things do wear out - calipers, rotors, wheel bearings, mufflers, catalytic converters, struts, etc. All these things start happening (it seems) between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, and you have to have some cash and belief that the car is worth putting some money into, or you have to be able to scavenge parts at junkyards and do the work yourself.

Most people don't drive the mileage I did at that time (my cars were turned over about every 8 years), most people don't have the cash for big repairs at 150k miles (and they know and fear that a big repair is probably coming, more so on an automatic transmission car), and most people drive only 12-15k miles per year, so 120-150k miles is 10 years - I'm sick of my car after 10 years as well and would like something newer, more up to date, and not "worn out" on the inside, and I can afford a new car at that point.

In my case, when I had those older cars I just wanted an efficient manual transmission car for not a lot of money and that could last a long time since I had such a long commute, and there weren't a lot of choices to be had, so I hung onto the cars I had. In ~2013 (for instance),the choices in my category (40+ highway mpg, hatchback, manual transmission, and preferably with a sunroof) were basically the Chevy Sonic and the Mazda 3 (I've looked at the Mazda 3 many times over the years). The Toyota Prius was overpriced ($28k or so, from memory) and only gave me about 5 mpg over what I could get with the Sonic with my driving style, and the driving feel of the Prius was soul-sucking, and it had an automatic transmission, so that was never a consideration. Plus, it was a butt-ugly car (they seemed to have made it funner and nice looking as of late). Chevy had a deal on the Sonic and I got mine for $19k at the time with the mid-level trim, sunroof and manual transmission, and the Mazda would have been $24k (no deals on the Mazda 3) - it was a no-brainer for me.

Once I could buy what I really wanted (full BEV with 250 mile range), I bought one (though the first Bolt was released when I only had 50k miles on my then Sonic). I'll never own an ICE vehicle again - it was a good run, my Sonic was surprisingly fun to drive with the manual transmission, but after a month driving my Bolt the Sonic was zero fun and the Bolt was a better car in every other way.

 

[RichBenn]

Ignorance(lack of knowledge) is THE reason there are EV haters out there. Once you have one, you realize that almost all your previous impressions were false. This from and old engineer who has worked on ICEs for 55 years. I Don’t miss getting gas and oil on me, going to gas stations, doing brake jobs, rebuilding transmissions, doing maintenance, rebuilding engines, waiting for the car to warm up to have heat - and TOO MANY other things to list.. I was wrong about hybrids, wrong about plug-in hybrids, and wrong about EV range anxiety.

 

[Xylem]

I can imagine what may be some of the appeal of EVs. Engines are finicky machines that require maintenance of oily and icky parts and maybe an expert mechanic when a symptom can't be diagnosed with just a scanner. EV buyers may think it's just turn on and go, no worries about engines. There is complex software, but they grow up with that stuff and may feel more at ease with keyboards than wrenches. So they happily motor until they need new batteries that cost more than the value of the cars, can't charge during blackouts, etc.

 

[begreen]

We're in a rural area a ways away from any other town. When the power is out in town, there is none at the gas pumps either. I keep the car charged up via charging at home for this reason.

 

[DBoon]

EV buyers may think it's just turn on and go, no worries about engines. There is complex software, but they grow up with that stuff and may feel more at ease with keyboards than wrenches. So they happily motor until they need new batteries that cost more than the value of the cars, can't charge during blackouts, etc.

But EVs are just turn and go, and there are no worries about engines and transmissions and all their complicated moving parts that wear. And ICE vehicles have complicated software too - most cars (of any type) have a hundred or so on-board computers, so no advantage there for an ICE vehicle. And I don't need to know anything about computer programming to turn on my EV and go anywhere. Batteries (exception: first-gen Nissan Leaf) don't go bad before the rest of the car does, so I don't lose any sleep about that either. The propulsion batteries are not lead-acid technology that goes completely bad in 5-7 years, and they are not 1980-vintage NiCad batteries or 2000-vintage first-generation Li-Ion batteries with bad charging schemes, just like your gas engine vehicle isn't a 1930-vintage unreliable completely inefficient polluting beast.

Yeah, if you want a pickup truck it's too soon for you for the EV revolution - just wait another 10 years. No dispute there. Otherwise, go take a drive in an EV and see what it is all about. Everyone who gets in my unassuming little BEV compact car thinks it is going to drive like a golf cart and after a spin around the 3-mile block they can't believe what it can do.

 

[fbelec]

i am a electrician that wires car chargers for these cars. i would say 40% of the calls i am getting are for car chargers. they make me money. i am only liable for the wiring. i have people buy there own chargers and i wire them. i do it thru the nec book. since this web site relies on personal experience and i can say i will not own one of these cars until i see that they got away from lithium ion batteries. i've just got thru speaking with a local towns fireman. 2. and they told me a story of a battery powered car that brings chills to me everytime i wire one. they had a car-ba-que happening so they had access to a clean dumpster and put the car in it and filled it with water no door on this dumpster. after a week of the car sitting in water they pulled it out and it reignited. the battery wasn't done burning yet. it was done when the battery and the car were completely burnt. after that story i looked up car fires on battery cars and found tons of happenings of fires here is some of the fire stories. and by the way the only thing that may or may not put out a lithium ion battery fire is foam. not all fire dept have foam. if they don't have foam they cannot do anything with the fire until it burns itself out. the way the fire happens if it is in your house via a attached garage kiss your house goodbye
sorry there is not anyone here that can convince me to buy one. until they have a battery that is not so flammable. and all my customers are know this because i tell them.

https://electrek.co/2019/03/02/tesla-store-fire-uk/

10 Tesla Model Y EVs Burn In Frankfurt, Anonymous Letter Claims Responsibility

The blaze had spread to several cars before the firefighters arrived at the scene, who came with special respiratory protection and five fire engines to support their action.

insideevs.com

Twenty Tesla Vehicles Affected By Fires on the Same Day in Turkey and France

On October 6, a car hauler with 6 Tesla Model Ys faced a fire that destroyed all battery electric vehicles (BEVs) in Turkey. On the same day, another bla...

www.autoevolution.com

 

[woodgeek]

i am a electrician that wires car chargers for these cars. i would say 40% of the calls i am getting are for car chargers. they make me money. i am only liable for the wiring. i have people buy there own chargers and i wire them. i do it thru the nec book. since this web site relies on personal experience and i can say i will not own one of these cars until i see that they got away from lithium ion batteries. i've just got thru speaking with a local towns fireman. 2. and they told me a story of a battery powered car that brings chills to me everytime i wire one. they had a car-ba-que happening so they had access to a clean dumpster and put the car in it and filled it with water no door on this dumpster. after a week of the car sitting in water they pulled it out and it reignited. the battery wasn't done burning yet. it was done when the battery and the car were completely burnt. after that story i looked up car fires on battery cars and found tons of happenings of fires here is some of the fire stories. and by the way the only thing that may or may not put out a lithium ion battery fire is foam. not all fire dept have foam. if they don't have foam they cannot do anything with the fire until it burns itself out. the way the fire happens if it is in your house via a attached garage kiss your house goodbye
sorry there is not anyone here that can convince me to buy one. until they have a battery that is not so flammable. and all my customers are know this because i tell them.

Its a free country, you can choose whatever you want.

Ofc, I've owned two Chevy Bolts, a 2017 with the 'bad' batteries, which did not catch fire in the year I owned it, or after I totaled it. And now a 2022 model, with the new 'good' battery. I guess I am comfortable with the fact that there are >200,000 of these units in use with the new battery, and no reports of spontaneous fires when charging. There are a LOT of bad things that can happen to me (even in a car) that are more likely than 1 in 200k.

It seems that EVs catch on fire a lot less frequently than ICE cars do, and both tend to have problems after accidents or other damage (when they will not be in my garage). EVs will also go up (as seen in FL) when flooded with salt water (also not going to happen in my garage far from the sea).

One of your links was an act of arson, how is that relevant? The fire in the Tesla store (5 years ago) was identified to have started in a storeroom, not one of the cars, The source of ignition in the car carrier case is suspicious.

You might be interested in an EV with LiFePO4 (aka LFP) batteries. They use a non-flammable electrolyte and a more stable cathode material, and no nickel... all of which makes them much less prone to thermal runaway. I haven't seen fire stats on the LFP cars yet, but we should see that soon.

 

[peakbagger]

BTW, plenty of statistics that an ICE vehicle is far more likely to burn and as anyone who has had a car fire has learned, if there is a fire let it burn as it very rare that it can be repaired.

What took the ICE industry to do in decades, EV makers are doing in years.

 

[Eman85]

just got thru speaking with a local towns fireman. 2. and they told me a story of a battery powered car that brings chills to me everytime i wire one. they had a car-ba-que happening so they had access to a clean dumpster and put the car in it and filled it with water no door on this dumpster. after a week of the car sitting in water they pulled it out and it reignited. the battery wasn't done burning yet. it was done when the battery and the car were completely burnt.

You would think something that wild would have made a news report somewhere. Makes you wonder why we carry cell phones in our pockets and have cordless tools with lithium batteries in our homes and shops.

 

[joop]

gas, ev they both work well.in canada there trying to get people of oil heating and natural gas.i could care less except that means forty million people need electricity.in the usa 360 million everyday 24hrs a day THINK A BIT how much strain thats going to put on the grids.right now it's spread around gas, heating oil, electricity.thats going to take some mighty revamping to make it work

 

[peakbagger]

One of the Hearth.com members had his shop burn down from a Ryobi Drill lithium battery being charged, the end of it blew out into a wall of rattle cans of touch up paint. It was an insulated metal building and it looked like a fireball had gone up in it.

 

[bholler]

One of the Hearth.com members had his shop burn down from a Ryobi Drill lithium battery being charged, the end of it blew out into a wall of rattle cans of touch up paint. It was an insulated metal building and it looked like a fireball had gone up in it.

Yes it happens. But very rarely considering the number of lithium batteries out there. There are also lots of fires caused by gas powered equipment as well.

 

[begreen]

Lithium batteries, gasoline, bah, too many explosives in the garage. Let's go back to the good old days of horse and buggy. Here's NYC before the auto arrived.



1894 - The 15 to 30 pounds of manure produced daily by each beast multiplied by the 150,000+ horses in New York city resulted in more than three million pounds of horse manure per day that somehow needed to be disposed of. That’s not to mention the daily 40,000 gallons of horse urine.

 

[joop]

urine is what washed the poop away.that'll clear the nasal passages sssnniiiiffff aahhh.and don't forget about all the human waste thrown out the windows.the good old days

 

[Eman85]

Lithium batteries, gasoline, too many explosives in the garage. Let's go back to the good old days of horse and buggy. Here's NYC before the auto arrived.

View attachment 321998

1894 - The 15 to 30 pounds of manure produced daily by each beast multiplied by the 150,000+ horses in New York city resulted in more than three million pounds of horse manure per day that somehow needed to be disposed of. That’s not to mention the daily 40,000 gallons of horse urine.

Don't forget the removal of dead horses.

 

[joop]

bring out your dead,bring out your dead.damn those ev's

 

[fbelec]

this is just my opinion. you people are taking this personally. i'm just telling you that my opinion is i am not buying one til they change the battery type. i've had a car fire that ran on gasoline. my fault.....

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[fbelec]

you can also take your chances with you and your family that's up to you. i'm not coming down on you. and like i pointed out i make money putting in these auto chargers that is no skin off my nose

 

[woodgeek]

you can also take your chances with you and your family that's up to you. i'm not coming down on you. and like i pointed out i make money putting in these auto chargers that is no skin off my nose

We take chances all the time. As I already estimated, the odds that my EV will spontaneously catch on fire is less than 1 in 100,000 in a year. What is my odds of dying in a car crash? I looked it up: 1.2 deaths per 100 million miles (in PA). So that means if I drive 800 miles, I have a 1 in 100,000 chance of death, and yet I drive 10x that every year.

If I am taking my family on a vacation 400 miles away (800 round trip), I would certainly drive, even though flying or the train would be much safer, just to save money. I'd accept the odds of killing them, just to save a few bucks.

And of course, even if my car spontaneously caught on fire in my garage, it might burn my (insured) house down, but it probably wouldn't kill me or my family members.

Your stories about EV fires being slow burning and hard to extinguish is a feature, not a bug. The cells are potted in fire-retardant chemicals so that the spread of fire is very slow, allowing people time to get away from the vehicle. House fires are dangerous because fire can spread very quickly and overwhelm victims before they can escape.

---------------------

Data: the Chevy Bolt with defective batteries sold 50,000 units, and maybe 200,000 in-service years, reported 19 spontaneous or suspicious fires. Or about 1 per 10,000 service years. Closer to my death rate from driving 8k miles/year.

Everything we know about the Chevy Bolt EV fires

Here is a list of the 16 known Chevy Bolt EV Fires, including details, links to more information about each fire, and which ones are confirmed.

electrek.co

Examining the reports, it looks like there were zero fatalities, and only a few house fires, as most vehicles burned while parked outdoors.

I expect that current EVs have a spontaneous fire rate at least 10X lower than in the defective Bolts (or <1:100000 per year I assumed above), but that the risk of house fire or death is another order of magnitude lower than that.

I'll take my data above over anecdotes from firefighters and TV news.

Keep in mind there are now a couple million EVs on the road in the US, so even at the low rate estimated, we would expect up to 20 (spontaneous) EV fires per year, and maybe 2 resulting house fires per year, over the whole country. If many of those make national news (unlike the 200,000 ICE vehicle fires in the US in a typical year) one gets a skewed view of risk: ICE vehicles are 20-60X more likely to end their lives burnt to a crisp.

 

[Eman85]

Somehow we managed to tame the demon of electricity, many were scared to have it in their house as it could set it afire! Many still won't have any type of gas be it propane or natural gas in their home.

 

[joop]

Somehow we managed to tame the demon of electricity, many were scared to have it in their house as it could set it afire! Many still won't have any type of gas be it propane or natural gas in their home.

wife is like that with ng, scared it will blow the house up

 

[begreen]

This is a woodstove forum. Folks have a fire in the house, many daily. Is it a risk, yes, life is too. The risk is tempered by safety in proper installation and operation. We've had an EV in our garage for a decade. I don't lose sleep over it.

As noted, more and more battery chemistries are coming online that don't have the risk of a lithium fire. No problem waiting if that makes one more comfortable.

wife is like that with ng, scared it will blow the house up

That's a reasonable concern and more dangerous if equipment is not kept in safe working order. The recent explosion in Michigan blew the house over 2 acres.