maple1
Minister of Fire
heaterman said:
I was thinking it would take a lot more water than that to stop an OWB with a full load of wood from idling.
Why is everyone down on non gassers?
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I was thinking it would take a lot more water than that to stop an OWB with a full load of wood from idling.
martyinmi
Member
To all you good folks out there that I have offended, I apologize. My replies here simply are meant to make people aware of how they are perceived when they make "smoke dragon" comments, generalize all OWB dealers as unintelligent snake oil salesmen, lump all OWB users into one category, make ridiculous assumptions about gasifying OWB's efficiencies or emissions(or lack thereof),etc. We need to come to the realization that everyone's situation is different and not everyone has the financial means to purchase a 10k-15k boiler(whether an out door or indoor gasser). Sometimes it becomes necessary to do what it takes to get by. We all should have the inherent desire to want to help and teach others without the condescending attitudes.
In my last post I offended canuck, and that was disrespectful. I am more intelligent than that, and my lack of wisdom at that moment was apparent. My reply to my fellow Michigander heaterman was not intended as a slam on him personally, just a bit of sales advise. I hope that's the way he interpreted it.
The title of this discussion forum is Wood Boilers and Furnaces. It is not OWB gassers, Conventional OWB's, European style gasifying indoor boilers Garn, Tarn, etc. It is meant for all of us, and I'm sure it has benefited hundreds, if not more. If we all do our part, we can rest assured at night knowing that something we typed genuinely educated someone.
My promise to all of you is that I will do my best to be respectful. I can assure you all that you will return that privilege me and others who share my views as long as our(not your) moderator allows me to visit this site.
There is more at stake here than a lot of folks realize. There are two very large and very politically powerful institutions that do not want any of us to use any renewable resources- in our case wood- to provide heat. We all need to stick together or we all going to lose right to provide wood fueled heat for our homes and businesses. Speak to someone who is employed with the EPA's DEQ about this issue and ask him(or her) to answer you candidly. You'll not like what you hear.
Edit: My son has inadvertently shut the spell check off on our computer. I corrected a few misspells, but I'm sure there are more.
In my last post I offended canuck, and that was disrespectful. I am more intelligent than that, and my lack of wisdom at that moment was apparent. My reply to my fellow Michigander heaterman was not intended as a slam on him personally, just a bit of sales advise. I hope that's the way he interpreted it.
The title of this discussion forum is Wood Boilers and Furnaces. It is not OWB gassers, Conventional OWB's, European style gasifying indoor boilers Garn, Tarn, etc. It is meant for all of us, and I'm sure it has benefited hundreds, if not more. If we all do our part, we can rest assured at night knowing that something we typed genuinely educated someone.
My promise to all of you is that I will do my best to be respectful. I can assure you all that you will return that privilege me and others who share my views as long as our(not your) moderator allows me to visit this site.
There is more at stake here than a lot of folks realize. There are two very large and very politically powerful institutions that do not want any of us to use any renewable resources- in our case wood- to provide heat. We all need to stick together or we all going to lose right to provide wood fueled heat for our homes and businesses. Speak to someone who is employed with the EPA's DEQ about this issue and ask him(or her) to answer you candidly. You'll not like what you hear.
Edit: My son has inadvertently shut the spell check off on our computer. I corrected a few misspells, but I'm sure there are more.
heaterman said:
So everything else being equal, with edit: boiler and 2000 gallons of storage inside the building envelope, how much do you really gain with a new gasser over a high quality non gasser in the same spot if your wood is dry and free? And how much do you gain with a new non gasser over a high quality good shape used one in this same scenario? Seems something like a used Tarm with substantial storage makes a lot of economic sense for a guy with free dry wood to feed it? Might not be quite as clean as a gasser burning the same fuel but I bet it is cleaner than the few gassers I have seen burning given what they were feeding them. The 5+ grand you save can then turn into a solar dhw system, insulation, etc if you are feeling guilty.
SolarAndWood said:
That's a great question. I would offer up that ANY boiler outside the building envelope, even with storage inside, will not operate as efficiently as a boiler inside, gasser or not. The whole point behind storage is to let your boiler shut down after a burn. If you do that with a boiler outside you have a whole new set of challenges. Letting a boiler full of water cool for X number of hours after every burn outside is going to be very challenging operationally. Especially on days like today where I saw 3 degrees F when I woke up this morning. Your boiler may not freeze. But my boiler right now is sitting at roughly 140 degrees downstairs after burning out over night. If that boiler were outside all night I'd be willing to bet water temps would be half that right now, and dropping fast...
In the case of an owb, the thinking would be to store the heat in the water rather than smoldering wood and load accordingly rather than cram it full just because the space is there.
maple1
Minister of Fire
There is more at stake here than a lot of folks realize. There are two very large and very politically powerful institutions that do not want any of us to use any renewable resources- in our case wood- to provide heat. We all need to stick together or we all going to lose right to provide wood fueled heat for our homes and businesses. Speak to someone who is employed with the EPA’s DEQ about this issue and ask him(or her) to answer you candidly. You’ll not like what you hear.
Yes, agreed, that is becoming a large problem all over. Even up here, municipalities are creating bylaws with respect to outdoor furnaces. Such legislation can be precedent setting and can spread. Which goes directly to the thread title - I'm not sure ALL are down on non-gassers, but those that are down on them are down on them for a good reason - they burn dirty, plain & simple. There was no talk, here at least, of bylaws against wood burning until the fairly recent proliferation of 'traditional' dirty OWBs. So as a group, I think everyone needs to accept that - I think it would be a simple fact that is quite hard to deny. The indoor gassers (in the house or a garage or a shed) with storage are likely the best solution in the clean & efficient aspect, but I also think that gassing OWBs are also a vast improvement that should not be discouraged. Yes, we need to educate people on all of this, but I don't think non-gassing OWBs should be on anybodys list of choices - pretty hard to argue that they have not hurt wood burning as a whole.
Yes, agreed, that is becoming a large problem all over. Even up here, municipalities are creating bylaws with respect to outdoor furnaces. Such legislation can be precedent setting and can spread. Which goes directly to the thread title - I'm not sure ALL are down on non-gassers, but those that are down on them are down on them for a good reason - they burn dirty, plain & simple. There was no talk, here at least, of bylaws against wood burning until the fairly recent proliferation of 'traditional' dirty OWBs. So as a group, I think everyone needs to accept that - I think it would be a simple fact that is quite hard to deny. The indoor gassers (in the house or a garage or a shed) with storage are likely the best solution in the clean & efficient aspect, but I also think that gassing OWBs are also a vast improvement that should not be discouraged. Yes, we need to educate people on all of this, but I don't think non-gassing OWBs should be on anybodys list of choices - pretty hard to argue that they have not hurt wood burning as a whole.
One point I'd like to make is that when I say OWB I am talking the none gasifing type traditional boiler that is a big fire box surounded with water. I realize there are newer designs that are better. Any boiler can be placed outside with the proper protection and I think most people here when they say OWB they mean the older style. I guess that any design that does the secondary burn of the gases at a high enough temp to completly burn them is good. Some may work better than others.
In the traditional OWB the fire is surounded by water and by design the fire can't get hot enough to completly burn the gases. This is made worse with green and cold wood. Thus the large amount of smoke. My son had a CB and had learned to be able to burn it very smoke free as he lived in a village. But to do it he had to burn small, hot fires, with dry wood thus load it more often. This defeated the advantage of only tending once a day, having to split the wood, and having heat all night. He hadn't recieved any complaints but there was another OWB in the village that was emiting a HUGE amount of smoke and he knew it was only a matter of time before the hammer was going to fall. He installed a eko60 in a pole barn with 2000gal storage. His wood consuption drop considerably, was able to fire on his days off (worked 12hr shifts 2 or 3 days then had days off), and you can't tell he is burning wood except with his wood piles.
Do I see a place for OWB yes but in very few cases and only if they are burn clean. It does make sence to me if someone can pick up a good used one and use it untill they are able to install a better one. But around here most OWB's are almost as much as buying a gasifier. My neighbor did that but I helped him install it using foam and such and it is surving him at the time. He also has told me that he can really see the diference in smoke and wood usage between him and I. He had to use some green wood last spring as he ran out and was telling me that he used over twice as much as he should have used and I was so right about the dry wood thing. Now when he is talking to other people about their boilers and they talk about having to go cut some wood to burn he's letting them know about his experience.
As people learn more and more about the gasifieing boilers they will come around. How many of you realized that most of the cars and trucks overseas during the war were running on wood. I'm 70 years old and NEVER heard of that untill I started researching alternate wood burning.
I personaly think that wood chips will be the big thing in the future as they will be easier for people to obtain. It is just going to take a while for some co. here to deside there is a market for it. They are available and in high use overseas. No need for storage as they can modulate and run very much like a fossel fuel boiler. But because of the codes, different requirements of states, cities , and such, along with the lawsuit enviroment here they don't want to get into this market. Just look around you and see all that brush etc that is going to the dump that with a small chipper could be made into heat. unlike pellets that are transportation heavy chips are right in your back yard. $6 gal oil is going to make some big changes around here.
leaddog
In the traditional OWB the fire is surounded by water and by design the fire can't get hot enough to completly burn the gases. This is made worse with green and cold wood. Thus the large amount of smoke. My son had a CB and had learned to be able to burn it very smoke free as he lived in a village. But to do it he had to burn small, hot fires, with dry wood thus load it more often. This defeated the advantage of only tending once a day, having to split the wood, and having heat all night. He hadn't recieved any complaints but there was another OWB in the village that was emiting a HUGE amount of smoke and he knew it was only a matter of time before the hammer was going to fall. He installed a eko60 in a pole barn with 2000gal storage. His wood consuption drop considerably, was able to fire on his days off (worked 12hr shifts 2 or 3 days then had days off), and you can't tell he is burning wood except with his wood piles.
Do I see a place for OWB yes but in very few cases and only if they are burn clean. It does make sence to me if someone can pick up a good used one and use it untill they are able to install a better one. But around here most OWB's are almost as much as buying a gasifier. My neighbor did that but I helped him install it using foam and such and it is surving him at the time. He also has told me that he can really see the diference in smoke and wood usage between him and I. He had to use some green wood last spring as he ran out and was telling me that he used over twice as much as he should have used and I was so right about the dry wood thing. Now when he is talking to other people about their boilers and they talk about having to go cut some wood to burn he's letting them know about his experience.
As people learn more and more about the gasifieing boilers they will come around. How many of you realized that most of the cars and trucks overseas during the war were running on wood. I'm 70 years old and NEVER heard of that untill I started researching alternate wood burning.
I personaly think that wood chips will be the big thing in the future as they will be easier for people to obtain. It is just going to take a while for some co. here to deside there is a market for it. They are available and in high use overseas. No need for storage as they can modulate and run very much like a fossel fuel boiler. But because of the codes, different requirements of states, cities , and such, along with the lawsuit enviroment here they don't want to get into this market. Just look around you and see all that brush etc that is going to the dump that with a small chipper could be made into heat. unlike pellets that are transportation heavy chips are right in your back yard. $6 gal oil is going to make some big changes around here.
leaddog
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