Why do people trash VC?

[Redburn]

Hi I am new to this site and love it hear . I'm a home improvement contractor and was working a house 2000sqf ranch and it was so warm I ask the woman why she had the windows open in January well she showed me her stove an encore and described how it worked and I was sold I started some research and found one that was a little tired but came with everything heat sheild's and warming shelves it ran great for 3 yrs and had to do a rebuild I did not have time so it put in garage and looked for another stove until I could rebuild it and found a hearthstone 2 . I was disapointed I used a lot more wood and heat and burn time was not there . I did find another Encore out of a vacation home hardly used a 2190 and it is running great 24/7 burn a lot less wood 7-8 hours burns easy ash removel a steady 550 to 600 temp all day long my mom can run this stove is another reason I like it the air control turns it right down . I did buy the rebuild kit for a little over 500$ and did the rebuild and I'm in the process to sell it now almost want to keep it but I am in the process of selling my house and it has to go.
Satisfied VC owner..

 

[Valhalla]

VC has always made a fine to excellent stove. The dealers and their arrogant attitudes make very bad press for the brand and discourage sales.

The new equity owner needs to fix the dealers first!

 

[Later]

I bought a house 4 years ago that had a Dutchwest Cat stove that the previous owner bought new in 1988. All the years that we had the house the stove worked well. I replaced it this year with a F400. The reason for the replacement was that the rear half wall and the right side half wall melted and burned through and I could not get replacement parts. I'd say that the Dutcwest heated as well as the F400.

With the economy the way it is right now however, I would wait a few years to see if the new VC company holds on before I bought another one.

 

[grommal]

Had a VC Defiant Encore cat stove for 23 years. I can't really complain overall. It was beautiful and well-built. It was finicky about the draft quality when the bypass damper was closed, though, and prone to random backpuffing. The cat combustors lasted 4-5 years, with noticeable dropoff in cat performance in the last season for each combustor. After 23 years, it needed its second major rebuild, with enough parts needed to make the rebuild not worth it. All in all, I'm satisfied with what that stove did for us for more than two decades.

I just bought a new stove (Jotul Oslo), and considered a new VC while I was shopping. The haphazard-looking assembly turned me off. Gaps in areas that should have been sealed, crooked doors, doors that hit each other and would not close fully, etc. Maybe most of these things could have been solved by lots of adjustments or gasket replacement, but a new stove in a showroom should not have these problems. In the same showrooms, the other brands did not, so it was not just shoddy setup by the shops.

I hope they turn it around. It would be a shame to see a formerly great name go fully down the tubes.

 

[Flatbedford]

I don't have a VC stove, but we did buy a VC gas grill last spring. The little LED light that it came with stopped working shortly after we bought it. The dealer told us about the change in ownership and denial of warranty coverage. This was not an inexpensive grill and we bought it because fo the great warranty that it came with. It seems that I got the same shaft that you stove owners did. I will add that we did eventually get a replacement light. I don't know if VC changed the policy or the dealer ate it just to keep us happy. We got it about 4 months after we told the dealer about the problem. The grill seems to be pretty nice, but I would not buy anything from them again. If I buy a premium priced product, I expect premium customer support.

 

[DAKSY]

VC has always made a fine to excellent stove.

For the most part, yes, nobody's gonna argue with that, unless it's a "USED TO" qualifier...

The dealers and their arrogant attitudes make very bad press for the brand and discourage sales.

That is total BS. The company I work for was VC dealer of the year in 93 & we sold & rebuilt a LOT of their units.
Now we hafta order parts 2 & 3 x to get the correct ones .
The companies that bought what used to be Vermont Castings, including a certain teachers' union,
wanted the cash cow, but offered none of the original customer service or technical expertise.

The new equity owner needs to fix the dealers first!

Oh, gimme a break...
The new owner needs to look at the original company & get back to the basics that made the name Vermont
Castings the company that it was intended to be.
When I first got involved in this industry, the two brothers who originated the company would come to
your house & scrub your walls & ceilings if their product damaged your home. Do you honestly believe
that CFM/Majestic/Monessen or whoever has got control these days would do that?
I order replacement glass & I get cast iron doors...what kind of customer service is that?
Vermont Castings CAN be a force to be reckoned with, especially in today's wood burning market, but
they need to start at the ash pan level & work their way to the chimney cap & clean up the entire system
along the way...

 

[Valhalla]

The disinterested customer facing attitude that some dealers have is the number one problem. While they may blame it on the products and VC corporate directly, the retail customer sees the dealer as their VC contact and local expert.

Therefore, they make their brand purchase or repurchase judgement accordingly.

 

[begreen]

Granted we hear more about the problems than successes. From the complaints we see posted here it would seem the main problems are frequent maintenance (and cost) and some models that are hard to control when connected to taller flues.

 

[karri0n]

Most seem happy with the cats, and unhappy with the Neverburns. Not sure if it was a bad batch or just a bad product regarding the Neverburns.

 

[grommal]

The disinterested customer facing attitude that some dealers have is the number one problem. While they may blame it on the products and VC corporate directly, the retail customer sees the dealer as their VC contact and local expert.

Therefore, they make their brand purchase or repurchase judgement accordingly.

The largest stove shop in our area is a VC dealer, and it's where I bought my old VC stove 23 years ago. When I went back there to shop recently, they did nothing to dispel the notion that a VC would not be a wise choice today. With no prompting, the salesman noted that the quality is not what it once was, that the company has had its financial ups and downs and has been poorly managed, and he then he proceded to show me the Hearthstones, Harmans, and Lopis instead. Strange behavior for a shop where there were about as many VC stoves on the floor as the other brands combined.

 

[webbie]

The disinterested customer facing attitude that some dealers have is the number one problem. While they may blame it on the products and VC corporate directly, the retail customer sees the dealer as their VC contact and local expert.

Therefore, they make their brand purchase or repurchase judgement accordingly.

In the interest of history, I have to disagree.

My store was a VC dealer for MANY years (decades now).

VC dealers were always the cream of the crop - the so-called A dealers, or first tier. That does not mean they were not human - BUT, the VC myths and legends were created and handed down (and then destroyed) by the COMPANY ITSELF.

Here is how I saw it happen...and, believe me, I watched as it unfolded because they were our largest line.

The "Old" VC - and this means Pre-CFM.....the last good CEO being Bill Matthewson (who owns the Home Comfort Store in WRJ, VT now!).......knew that it was their relationships with dealers and customer which made them famous. Not their stoves. Tell you the truth, we had stoves which were more reliable and easier to use...many which had fewer problems. But we did not have ANY companies that treated us as well as VC.

Our contacts at the company always said YES...when ever we asked for anything. This goes from warranty problems to getting shipments out quickly. More importantly, they always told the truth. Imagine that! If something was not available or back ordered, they told us. If we had 14 Resolute Acclaims on order, they told us they were making a run of 235 of them next week and we would get ours. We always did...........

THEN,

CFM took over. Our rep, who probably ran his mouth too much, told us right out that CFM could not care less about existing dealers. In fact, he told us that his job was now NOT to see us, but to open as many shops and competitors around us as he possible can. I could not make this stuff up! I guess I was too friendly with the rep, but he also probably felt bad at being forced to abandon the old ways.

So, CFM worked out all kinds of schemes to get more distribution.....from selling to the local plumber to big box stores. The top dealers, myself included, obviously moved many of our eggs to other baskets (like Jotul, Travis, etc.).

The rest is pretty well known. CFM went bankrupt twice (or bust, whatever you want to call it).

So, as a summary, Valhalla may be correct that many of the new thousands of dealers are/were not up to snuff. After all, Joe the Plumber could get a dealership.....

But make no mistake about it. The marching orders, attitude, plans and everything else came directly from the new CEO - one Mr. Colin Adamson....or something like that. The stories are many, and one especially that fascinates me - but I cannot repeat verbatim for fear of gossip. Maybe some brave rep or mate will write a story about it someday......

In short, the company 100% changed the way they did business, the relationship with dealers, the can-do attitude and the idea that the customer always comes first. This is something we have seen over and over again when companies are trying to build up value (they had went public, and were trying to sell more and more)........

 

[DrPalmblad]

I bought a Vermont Castings Large Winterwarm Insert in December 2006, installed January 2007 ($4500). Linkage to damper broke in November 2008. Stove was supposed to have a 3 year warranty but company refused to honor it claiming that, according to the serial number, the stove was "manufactured" beyond 3 years ago. My original dealer has since closed shop and I'm SOL to the tune of $1600 for the repairs. I can only hope VC crashes and burns!

 

[webbie]

Nice trick.......of course units are manufactured well before the date they are sold. Heck, I just bought a sailboat (new) that was made in 2007 and an aux. outboard that was made in 2006 (new also).

I'm sure you have a receipt which makes it clear.....

Let me give you a lead, CPP...and don't laugh.....

Go to hearthtalk.com and ask Elk the moderator if there is anything he can go for you. He knows some people there, and the right person can probably help somewhat.

However, if I can ask, is this an expensive part? I think those linkages are more a matter of getting them adjusted right.....etc.

 

[BrotherBart]

Heck I just bought a new DVR made in 2005 and called the manufacturer to check before I bought it and they said the warranty was good.

But that linkage should be something a local metal shop could make for fifty bucks.

 

[DrPalmblad]

I know they're blowing smoke up my "chimney" despite the fact that I have my receipt and written 3yr warranty. Judging from all the rest of the posts regarding Vermont Castings new ownership, I can't figure why they just didn't say they don't honor past warranties.

Dec.08: Diagnostic visit= $180
Feb.09: Parts (from Kentucky)= 421.08
Apr.09: Labor (remove, repair & reinstall)= 923.27

I paid it and just figured I'd take them to small claims court. I later found out that if the company does not have offices in New York then I can't sue in small claims. Has to be District or Federal for interstate matters (requiring a lawyer, etc). My lawyer said that after legal fees, it wouldn't pay to pursue it.

I just can't believe how they can get away with this! Hell, if you bought a car or a house that had a lein on it, the leinholders would still be able to lay claim despite the transfer of ownership. Why should a business be able to absolve it's responsibilities to it's customers just because they were sold to new owners. I say: "you buy the company's debts too."

 

[webbie]

It doesn't work that way in business....in fact, that is one of the main reasons behind becoming a corporation!

If you don't have anything left to really protect (like VC), then you can arrange to only sell assets......hard assets and the new company has nothing to do with the old.

On the other hand, it is not good business because of situations like yours.

 

[grommal]

It doesn't work that way in business....in fact, that is one of the main reasons behind becoming a corporation!

If you don't have anything left to really protect (like VC), then you can arrange to only sell assets......hard assets and the new company has nothing to do with the old.

On the other hand, it is not good business because of situations like yours.

This is indeed the case. Debts and liabilities do not necessarily go to the new owner of a business. I used to work for a major steel company that went under. Prior to liquidation they sold all their assets and the new owner took on none of the liabilities. Benefits promised to retirees vanished, and the government had to pick up the pension plan with reduced payments for many.

 

[don_faithful]

The stoves look nice. Sometimes you never really know something is screwed up until people start using the appliances and problems happen. When CFM went through bankruptcy protection, THEORETICALLY this meant that the warranties up to that point would not have to be honored. I'm not a bankruptcy expert. I think in order to make the purchase worthwhile for Monessen, there would have to be a clean slate. So that is the general rationale. The fundamental flaw in this business model is that new purchasers tend to be previous owners or people connected in some way to existing owners. There were some pretty unusual changes made to tried-and-proven models especially on the gas side of the business. Like mounting a gas valve right next to the combustion chamber of a Chateau fireplace. Apart from concerns over safety, it is so inaccessible. Plus there was an ultra-realistic flame from a new hearth design for a gas stove. Who would have thought at the development stage that the hearths would start cracking.

 

[RustyShackleford]

So, apparently a company called Monessen Hearth Systems Company
has bought out CFM. Any word on how this is gonna affect things ??

 

[bsa0021]

So, apparently a company called Monessen Hearth Systems Company
has bought out CFM. Any word on how this is gonna affect things ??

Rusty, apparently you found the posts concerning VC. If you continue your search under VC dutchwest you will get loads of info. Here's a teaser (see pictures)of my fountain after 2-3 years of burning 24/7. Once the fountain is destroyed the back of the stove will glow as others have complained. This parts alone costs $400. New this part is boxed in except for the air/exhaust passages.

 

[RustyShackleford]

So, apparently a company called Monessen Hearth Systems Company
has bought out CFM. Any word on how this is gonna affect things ??

Rusty, apparently you found the posts concerning VC. If you continue your search under VC dutchwest you will get loads of info. Here's a teaser (see pictures)of my fountain after 2-3 years of burning 24/7. Once the fountain is destroyed the back of the stove will glow as others have complained. This parts alone costs $400. New this part is boxed in except for the air/exhaust passages.

Yikes ! That's only for the non-catalytic, right, not a factor in the old or new version of their
catalytic stoves ?

 

[summit]

as you can see by my signature, we sell VC stoves.. If a serious 24/7 woodburner comes in looking for a VC, I try to push him/her to a jotul instead.. better fit, finish, interior quality and longevity (although the outside castings/look is about an even par..). For the outta state couple that wants a stove in their ski condo, or cottage on the lake and requests a VC, I'll sell 'em a VC... they won't use it enough to really break it. We have about a dozen used stoves that are in our warehouse, all needed to be rebuilt, and all but two are VC stoves... each one needed a minimum of $400 bucks in parts, and most are less than 10 yrs old. During the winter we recieve at least 50 calls a week for VC parts, and each caller usually has to wait about 3-4 wks for a part. - the worst part is how the engineers for VC continue to whore out their old neverburn ideas on other companies; LOPI, Avalon, harman, all have some version of it, and have all hired the same guys to basically recycle their old VC plans into another stove. I think the Harman verision is a little more solid, but not by much...

 

[RustyShackleford]

Well, I sure as hell am not going to spring for a new VC Ducthwest stove
after what I'm reading here. My 20yo one works fine, it just seems like
I get a little smoke odor in the house during a long slow burn. Maybe I
will try to figure out if I can see what seams may be seeping.

Meanwhile, perhaps these Monessen folks will try to rebuild the VC/Dutchwest
reputation - with deeds in addition to words. If this happens, maybe I'll buy a
new one in a few years ...

 

[karri0n]

Rusty,

It does seem that people with VC CAT stoves are very happy with them. It's the NeverBurn technology that causes problems.

 

[Highbeam]

Of all the available cat stoves, the VC dutchwest cat stoves seem to be the most complicated to run with multiple air inlet controls. It's too bad that a good company like Jotul or even a plate steel maker like PE can't put out a cat stove.