Why aren’t the trades valued more? A podcast and discussion.

[begreen]

When I read this, I heard it as "too young", and started typing up a scathing rebuttal.

So, if by "too soon", you meant another year or three of playing high school teenager, I'd say it's nothing but a waste of time and expense. But if incorporated into some cooperative education involving actual employment that helps one start to form an idea of what they might want to do in life, I'd think one could make a pretty good argument for that.

Too soon meaning they need a year or three to find themselves and what really motivates them. Sometimes 6 months in another country or 2 yrs in Peace Corp can do this. FWIW, I was a raging hippie and sound man for a fusion rock band during those years, but I still had to pay for my food and rent. That's where real education came in. I was also doing popular multimedia productions which were the eventual bridge back to college.

I'd believe that. But if you tell me he got rich by being a plumber rather than a business owner or any other means, I'm going to have some follow-up questions. My great grandfather and grandfather were both plumbers, and both did pretty well in life, but not by being employee plumbers.

He had his own business for decades, no employees until later on.

 

[alber197]

One thing I notice when I see numbers thrown around is that so many things vary widely by locale. ABMax sees big numbers because he's in Alberta, and not enough folks will travel up there to fill the huge demand, without sufficient compensation. Likewise, abler197 is seeing even employee plumbers making more than most with a 4 year degree, but he may live in an area where there's just not a lot of high-paying tech jobs for those with 4-year degrees. This is also how it was for part of my family growing up in the dying steel towns of western PA, but such an apparent inversion may represent a small fraction of our population, perhaps smaller than the opposite extreme of Silicon Valley.

Location is a big factor that can't be ignored when giving specific numbers and comparisons.

I agree with you. We're in a big metro area and there's a large demand for our work and very few people to do it so it definitely drives our wages up.

But I belive society as a whole has created a shortage in the trades across all locations that has not occurred in previous generations.

I think there's plenty of room for the trades employee to do very well compared to those working for a major corporation or in a tech job with a 4 year degree and lots of debt. Not everyone can or wants to own a business.

 

[begreen]

I agree with you. We're in a big metro area and there's a large demand for our work and very few people to do it so it definitely drives our wages up.

But I belive society as a whole has created a shortage in the trades across all locations that has not occurred in previous generations.

I think there's plenty of room for the trades employee to do very well compared to those working for a major corporation or in a tech job with a 4 year degree and lots of debt. Not everyone can or wants to own a business.

I know of a local friend of a friend that got wealthy in the food biz. Their son could have had any schooling he wanted but he chose to wander for a couple years. When he came back, he decided he wanted to be a jet mechanic. This was back in the 1990s and he came out of school and walked right into a healthy wage, great hours, and lots of travel if he wanted it. He was bright and good at his craft. By the turn of the century, he was pulling 6 figures and loving it.

 

[ABMax24]

He was bright and good at his craft.

This is something too many young people overlook. Being proficient in any trade pays far better than being mediocre in a statistically high paying trade.

 

[Ashful]

Back a couple of decades ago, one of the richest people in our community was a plumber.

I'd believe that. But if you tell me he got rich by being a plumber rather than a business owner or any other means, I'm going to have some follow-up questions. My great grandfather and grandfather were both plumbers, and both did pretty well in life, but not by being employee plumbers.

I'd have to disagree with you..

Yes, plumbers can do well, especially if they own their own business. But if you disagree with my challenging the notion that a plumber (not the owner of a plumbing business) became "one of the richest people" in a community by plumbing alone, I'm going to have some questions about this community. Were there no cardiologists, orthopedic surgeons, dermatologists, opthalmologists, Ob.Gyn's, lawyers, or engineers in this community?

 

[alber197]

Yes, plumbers can do well, especially if they own their own business. But if you disagree with my challenging the notion that a plumber (not the owner of a plumbing business) became "one of the richest people" in a community by plumbing alone, I'm going to have some questions about this community. Were there no cardiologists, orthopedic surgeons, dermatologists, opthalmologists, Ob.Gyn's, lawyers, or engineers in this community?

I think your idea of rich and my idea or rich are different.. plumbers have no student loan debt, work an hourly wage and get to spend more time with their family than most of the careers you listed. They make a lot of money by most standards and can retire at a normal age.

And I don't think comparing plumbers to doctors is what everyone is going for here.

It takes 4 years to get your journeyman plumbing license. Far from the 12+years it takes to become a cardiologist or 8 years to become a lawyer. Our community is filled with engineers (3m HQ is here) and most plumbers do much better. I think when compared with most 4 year degrees (of course not all), you will do better in the trades.

 

[Ashful]

I think your idea of rich and my idea or rich are different..

Yes, I'm sure that is true. But I was responding to "richest", not "rich". begreen was comparing the plumber to the rest of the community, the actual numbers don't matter much in a comparison.

I think when compared with most 4 year degrees (of course not all), you will do better in the trades.

If we changed it from "will do better in the trades" to "could do better in the trades", I'd agree completely. But none of the professions I named as alternative candidates for begreens "richest in the community" are typically filled by people with only a 4 year degree.

Really, this is a silly argument. You can look up actual dept. of labor statistics on the top paying careers, and more than 20 of the top 25 are in the medical field. Nearly all require some education beyond a 4-year degree. I don't know where plumber (or any other trade) lands on the chart, if you don't include "business owner", they just aren't hitting numbers that even get them included in any "top ten" or "top 25" wages lists.

It's fair to say you can earn a very good and comfortable wage, if you're a skilled and hardworking tradesman. But for anyone to pretend that these jobs are somehow among the top paying in any average community is either dishonest or misinformed, the data doesn't support it. I'll accept that there are rare cases where it's true, we can all waste hours on Google finding them, but they're outside the statistical norm.

Getting back to the statement that started it all, I suspect begreen was just playing a little loose with the term "one of the richest", or else it was a rather unique community.

 

[Tonty]

This is an interesting topic. How many teachers do we have on here? I’m one, but my experience is outside the mainstream, as I teach for a small private school that only does elementary education. I also have a trade background, as that is what I did before the teaching career, and still do in summer and some evening/weekends.
I find it interesting that (this is a whole topic by itself) our education sector tries to correct the “low education” standard with curriculum. That doesn’t work. I don’t care which curriculum you have, or how you try to teach higher levels in lower grades, if the student/their parents don’t want to apply themselves, it won’t work. Admittedly, some curriculums are easier to teach than others.
I don’t encourage any of my students to get a college education. Very few of them do. If the want to go get a GED and do so, that’s great. They generally don’t have any big issues doing so. But most of them enter the trade world and are fine. On the other hand we do need some trained people, I’d hesitate to let a plumber give do a surgery on me.🤔
I started my trade “career” at age 15. Did I enjoy it all of the time? No. But now I’m thankful that I went to the school of hard knocks.
I’ve also been to a third world country, and visited their rural schools. Horrible, but they do try. One teacher for 40+ students, no books for the students, no electricity or running water, and no test to pass from one grade to the next. They do need to pass a test to go on from form 7. One of my friends had a daughter take that test while I was there. Of the 90 some students in her grade, something like 3 passed.
But this is kind of getting off the “Why aren’t trades valued more” topic. Basically it boils down to ego.

 

[bholler]

Honestly the fact is yes those top 25 high paying jobs absolutely need degrees and pretty much all of them require some form of graduate degree. But there are a very limited number of them available. And many jobs requiring degrees even.graduate degrees are grossly underpaid. The mental health field is one of them. As is education in many areas.

And the number of people working in trades or even retail with college degrees show that clearly a college degree no longer means much. Many kids are pushed to college for no reason at all. And many of them would be better saving that money.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

One thing I notice when I see numbers thrown around is that so many things vary widely by locale. ABMax sees big numbers because he's in Alberta, and not enough folks will travel up there to fill the huge demand, without sufficient compensation. Likewise, abler197 is seeing even employee plumbers making more than most with a 4 year degree, but he may live in an area where there's just not a lot of high-paying tech jobs for those with 4-year degrees. This is also how it was for part of my family growing up in the dying steel towns of western PA, but such an apparent inversion may represent a small fraction of our population, perhaps smaller than the opposite extreme of Silicon Valley.

Location is a big factor that can't be ignored when giving specific numbers and comparisons.

I was thinking that other than demand, currency exchange rates might be a key to the high wages too. In the late 90s I think the Canadian dollar was worth 60% of the American dollar. I remember buying a complete works of Shakespeare in a used book store for $6. Yeah, it was paperback, lol. They were asking $10.

I have no idea what the exchange rate was in the 2010s or any time since the late 90s.

 

[Ashful]

Honestly the fact is yes those top 25 high paying jobs absolutely need degrees and pretty much all of them require some form of graduate degree. But there are a very limited number of them available. And many jobs requiring degrees even.graduate degrees are grossly underpaid. The mental health field is one of them. As is education in many areas.

And the number of people working in trades or even retail with college degrees show that clearly a college degree no longer means much. Many kids are pushed to college for no reason at all. And many of them would be better saving that money.

Oh, definitely. I agree with you on all points. We sort of went down a rabbit hole in that argument.

But it is closely related to the OP, in that I do believe so many following the "go to college" mantra have numbers and statements associated with highly-paid specialties clouding their young and easily-influenced brains, rather than the jobs they're more likely to actually get with a 4-year degree, when making this choice over the trades. Once being the young scholastic type who was always selected to talk with high school seniors on "Career Day", I can't even tell you how many of them would initially choose my specialty based on the numbers available, only to realize it's hard or not very fun, and then head a different way in year 3 or 4 of a 5-8 year curriculum.

 

[tlc1976]

I was in school in the 80s and early 90s. I told people I wanted to go to trade school. Yeah I was good at math but I really preferred working hands on. Always loved building and fixing things. But my school pushed the idea that trade school was for dropouts, and said I was better than that. They wouldn’t even let me take advanced drafting, they said I was better than that, and put me in 5 years of algebra related classes instead.

I’ve been at my current engineering job for 24 years this week, and recently hit $25/hr for the first time in my life. If I could have started in the trades, I see experienced guys making a lot more than that. And more available work than they know what to do with.

But at this point I’m probably too old to start something new, and have the experience to make it worth it.

 

[Ashful]

I’ve been at my current engineering job for 24 years this week, and recently hit $25/hr for the first time in my life.

Engineering salaries can vary widely by specialty, industry, and type of engineer. It's sort of like saying "doctor", but without specifying cardiologist versus podiatrist, or large city hospital vs small private practice

When I found myself jobless in February of this year, I received a few offers that were all $200k - $250k per year salary, plus stock options or profit sharing, plus 401k match, for "senior member of technical staff" type roles. I have engineering acquaintances lucky enough to be in companies where the stock options actually pay off, who are occasionally clearing $500k individual annual income, as a senior engineer without management responsibilities. One of them has my old job.

 

[Sawset]

The us department of labor has a publication, the Occupational Outlook Handbook.
It includes a listing of 100s of different occupations, pay scales average and range, employment outlook, and listings for variations within occupations.

Home : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

The Occupational Outlook Handbook is the government's premier source of career guidance featuring hundreds of occupations—such as carpenters, teachers, and veterinarians. Revised annually, the latest version contains employment projections for the 2021-31 decade.

stats.bls.gov

 

[Sawset]

I was in school in the 80s and early 90s. I told people I wanted to go to trade school. Yeah I was good at math but I really preferred working hands on. Always loved building and fixing things. But my school pushed the idea that trade school was for dropouts, and said I was better than that. They wouldn’t even let me take advanced drafting, they said I was better than that, and put me in 5 years of algebra related classes instead.

I’ve been at my current engineering job for 24 years this week, and recently hit $25/hr for the first time in my life. If I could have started in the trades, I see experienced guys making a lot more than that. And more available work than they know what to do with.

But at this point I’m probably too old to start something new, and have the experience to make it worth it.

There are regional variations in employment opportunities. Northern Michigan I would think would offer just what you are describing.

 

[incinerator]

I was in school in the 80s and early 90s. I told people I wanted to go to trade school. Yeah I was good at math but I really preferred working hands on. Always loved building and fixing things. But my school pushed the idea that trade school was for dropouts, and said I was better than that. They wouldn’t even let me take advanced drafting, they said I was better than that, and put me in 5 years of algebra related classes instead.

I’ve been at my current engineering job for 24 years this week, and recently hit $25/hr for the first time in my life. If I could have started in the trades, I see experienced guys making a lot more than that. And more available work than they know what to do with.

But at this point I’m probably too old to start something new, and have the experience to make it worth it.

I graduated in the mid 90s from high school. College (4 year) was pushed very strongly, and 2 year was for dumb/poor kids // no college was unspeakable. I grew up in a family where everyone worked for dot.gov--back then it was good pay, excellent benefits and of course that early retirement and fat pension. It has changed a lot from what i hear---as in it's no longer the gravy train it used to be. My wife works in the tech world. Good pay, excellent benefits but you have no idea how long your job will last.

 

[tlc1976]

There are regional variations in employment opportunities. Northern Michigan I would think would offer just what you are describing.

Mechanical Design Engineer would be the best description. I agree it’s about par for the area.

 

[begreen]

The salary discussion has taken a side route here. I think the point is that trade jobs are not valued or esteemed as a high achievement in life. With my dad having a mechanical contracting firm I grew up shoulder to shoulder with tradesmen. They were actually better people than his partner and accountant. I saw this in the schools where students that didn't choose a college track were regarded as less successful than those that went on to college. Some other parents acted as if the teachers and school had failed these kids, or they weren't as smart. That is a wrong and damaging stigmatization. I value people with good skills in any field. If someone wants to be a welder and is good at it, more power to them. I'm glad that they made it through high school and can read and write. That's important, but it's not all that's valuable in life. One's character is far more important than their wealth. Monetary value is not equivalent to human value.

 

[EbS-P]

Personally, I think we push kids into college too soon. A lot of them are not ready for it and end up with a somewhat useless degree as a result. If they are lucky to have a mentor and they're smart, some might change their major once they discover their passion. Many do not.

I worked on and off about 10 yrs in the trades before finishing up my college degree. Those years were invaluable in helping me develop problem-solving skills, boosting my confidence, and paying the bills. These skills have saved me thousands in plumbing, hvac, and on electrical work and repairs, even as I switched careers.

^^this^^ but we don’t have an organized meaningful meaningful alternative experience for them. I just had an 18-19 year old tell me that the thing they were most proud of this semester was doing their own laundry and taking their car in For a repair by themselves as it was the first time they had ever had to do that.

for the most part this semester these were focused driven kids. And I use that term purposefully. Many have learned how to perform in the academic setting and college is just more of the same with more parting and less supervision.

We just say go to college and figure it out then they complain how hard it is and complain that I don’t curve my exams even when the average is a 56%. (Someone always get a 100% in a class of 90+ students).

And the last stat I will leave is that we have growing gender imbalance in higher Ed. We are 65% female now and trending higher. I’m

The us department of labor has a publication, the Occupational Outlook Handbook.
It includes a listing of 100s of different occupations, pay scales average and range, employment outlook, and listings for variations within occupations.

Home : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

The Occupational Outlook Handbook is the government's premier source of career guidance featuring hundreds of occupations—such as carpenters, teachers, and veterinarians. Revised annually, the latest version contains employment projections for the 2021-31 decade.

stats.bls.gov

I love data because we can stop sharing OUR experiences and talk about everyone’s generalized collective reality.

Plumber Mean salary $60k. Elementary school teacher $61k. That’s more than I make as Lecturer a state University with a PhD in physics.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Did they also list mean pay? I see median, which is probably more useful, but mean would tell us if there is a crazy high earner throwing the numbers off.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Everybody has baby steps on their journey. Washing their own clothes might be one of theirs. It'll prepare them for that first dirty diaper leak somewhere in their future! Lol

 

[EbS-P]

Did they also list mean pay? I see median, which is probably more useful, but mean would tell us if there is a crazy high earner throwing the numbers off.

Didn’t see it. Median is just a better number. As it gives equal weight to the bottom 10% ( or 1)of income earners as it does the top 10% (or 1%.

 

[Sawset]

^^this^^ but we don’t have an organized meaningful meaningful alternative experience for them. I just had an 18-19 year old tell me that the thing they were most proud of this semester was doing their own laundry and taking their car in For a repair by themselves as it was the first time they had ever had to do that.

for the most part this semester these were focused driven kids. And I use that term purposefully. Many have learned how to perform in the academic setting and college is just more of the same with more parting and less supervision.

We just say go to college and figure it out then they complain how hard it is and complain that I don’t curve my exams even when the average is a 56%. (Someone always get a 100% in a class of 90+ students).

And the last stat I will leave is that we have growing gender imbalance in higher Ed. We are 65% female now and trending higher. I’m

I love data because we can stop sharing OUR experiences and talk about everyone’s generalized collective reality.

Plumber Mean salary $60k. Elementary school teacher $61k. That’s more than I make as Lecturer a state University with a PhD in physics.

View attachment 304472

Would you change professions based on that? There is so much to choosing a career other than pay. Myself, I purposely chose small towns, rural areas, and small businesses to work for. And took a pay cut to do so. Mainly it was because of the quality of life I desired. I could have chased high compensation jobs, but then be subjected to all that goes with it, stress, commute, big city co-workers. But the link above, was mostly because there is so much discussion about pay, without a larger perspective of really who is making what.

 

[EbS-P]

Would you change professions based on that? There is so much to choosing a career other than pay. Myself, I purposely chose small towns, rural areas, and small businesses to work for. And took a pay cut to do so. Mainly it was because of the quality of life I desired. I could have chased high compensation jobs, but then be subjected to all that goes with it, stress, commute, big city co-workers. But the link above, was mostly because there is so much discussion about pay, without a larger perspective of really who is making what.

Umm…probably not for a trade profession. I’m exploring other opportunities given my skill set. But I completely agree there is more to a job than salary. But money is how we measure value.

Should we all reject the lowest quote to show how much we value the trades???

 

[Sawset]

Should we all reject the lowest quote to show how much we value the trades???

I think valuing the trades may be more of a societal issue that anything cost related. There were a number of people when I was very young who I perceived as larger than life, pillars of the community, someone to try to emulate, very influential as an example of high standard and integrity. One was an electrician, another two were carpenters, another a stone mason. Today, with todays society - pillars of a community, ? Is that even a thought of anymore? I've resolved to use my skills to do my own work, and emulate their ways, as long as I'm able.