maple1
Minister of Fire
Keep remembering though that you were talking about a once-in-5-years event. I don't mind using a couple of cords a couple times a year. That's me though...
Whole house generator
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You should be fine with a 8kw standby system. Sounds like money is not a issue so by all means get the best.
I have a 3500watt loud generator to power our well pump. And use a 2000w inverter to power 5 circuits in the house via a 120v transfer switch. Fridge some lighting and our pellet stove. Works well have to refuel about every 6 hours but uses minimal gas.
I have a 3500watt loud generator to power our well pump. And use a 2000w inverter to power 5 circuits in the house via a 120v transfer switch. Fridge some lighting and our pellet stove. Works well have to refuel about every 6 hours but uses minimal gas.
claydogg84
Minister of Fire
Me either. I wired the generator outlet in when I was renovating the downstairs (all new Sheetrock) so it was fairly easy. Also, with the interlock switch I can energize the entire panel and turn off certain stuff if I wanted to.
I also took the opportunity to upgrade to an interlock panel from Siemens when I replaced my old Zinsco panel. I only use a 3500 watt 240 volt genset that will easily run 12 hours running my essentials. It's a champion power equipment generator and everything runs fine except the ceiling fan humms louder than usual so we shut it off.
I also own a 3000 watt inverter genset but those only make 120 volt power so it gets a little tricky to backfeed the whole panel. That's a problem with the interlock route, you need a 240 genset.
Lots of good advice.
I'll add, you need to have a keen sense of what you really need. For example, I need a bit more than most since I have a well. As such, I went with a 5500 watt portable unit, with a single hook up (as others mentioned) and it feeds a transfer switch box that gives my well the 220 volts it needs, and also feeds 4 other 110 volt circuits in the house that I chose. These circuits feed each of the fridges and freezers, and I may need to move a few lamps around for light, but the things that need to run, will run.
For my parents, I could do similar for them, be they no longer have a septic and are hooked to a sewage system that unfortunately loses power the same as they do,,,,, in other words, by numbers he should need enough electric to run the well and grinder pump, but by reality he needs to poop in a bag now
Folks around him last power outage that didn't know better, had bad fluids flowing up in their yard as a result of thinking their power to their grinder pump meant things would move away from home.
In all, the first five years we lived in our house, we were without power for several hours a day, monthly,,,,, going 12 hours without power was basically a 2 to 3 time a year event. Then, 4 years ago, we had a storm that put us out for days and I finally broke down and bought a generator. Since, we haven't been without power for more than 2 hours in the worst of weather,,,,, simply because they did some tree trimming.
In all, it's good to be prepared, but unless you are disabled, or have a setup that somehow does not allow a portable unit to make ends meet on a minimal level, many people are going overboard with the whole house generators.
pen
I'll add, you need to have a keen sense of what you really need. For example, I need a bit more than most since I have a well. As such, I went with a 5500 watt portable unit, with a single hook up (as others mentioned) and it feeds a transfer switch box that gives my well the 220 volts it needs, and also feeds 4 other 110 volt circuits in the house that I chose. These circuits feed each of the fridges and freezers, and I may need to move a few lamps around for light, but the things that need to run, will run.
For my parents, I could do similar for them, be they no longer have a septic and are hooked to a sewage system that unfortunately loses power the same as they do,,,,, in other words, by numbers he should need enough electric to run the well and grinder pump, but by reality he needs to poop in a bag now
Folks around him last power outage that didn't know better, had bad fluids flowing up in their yard as a result of thinking their power to their grinder pump meant things would move away from home.In all, the first five years we lived in our house, we were without power for several hours a day, monthly,,,,, going 12 hours without power was basically a 2 to 3 time a year event. Then, 4 years ago, we had a storm that put us out for days and I finally broke down and bought a generator. Since, we haven't been without power for more than 2 hours in the worst of weather,,,,, simply because they did some tree trimming.
In all, it's good to be prepared, but unless you are disabled, or have a setup that somehow does not allow a portable unit to make ends meet on a minimal level, many people are going overboard with the whole house generators.
pen
Similar experience here . . . we would lose power for a few hours until the Ice Storm of 1998 hit . . . leaving us without power for 14 days (well technically leaving my wife without power for 14 days since I left to go to a two week training seminar at Day 7 or 8 I think it was).
That Summer the tree trimming crews came through and until recently we haven't been without power for more than maybe 3 hours . . . we did have a storm a while back though that did leave us without power for 3 days.
How did that work out? Did she mess with a portable generator? I trained my wife on using the snow blower when I was laid up once, but....
Oh it gets worse . . . on Day 2 or 3 I think it was we opted to go into town to eat . . . and in the dark she stumbled over the ATV plow I had left out, fell and ended up breaking her wrist so she was basically left one handed.
To answer your question . . . she did OK . . . she was able to start the generator (which we had hooked up to the oil boiler and a couple lights) one handed and with help from her daughter could refill it with gas. She's an incredible woman . . . my true soul mate.
These days we're in a much better place . . . having a woodstove is nice since we know we'll always have heat at least.
She also has to put up with me . . . and I can be difficult sometimes.
I'm like a few others who have come to understand how simple life can be and how little emergency electrical power is actually needed to cover a grid outage, even one lasting several days. Following a big windstorm in the early 1990's which left us without power in the heat of summer for 4 days, I obsessed over emergency electrical power, looked at gas, LP and diesel units, portable and whole house, etc. Then the common sense of my situation finally sunk in: what is really needed vs what is wanted during a long term or a short term outage, winter or summer.
Heat: Since our primary heat is the wood stove in the living room, which can keep the house main level very comfortable and can keep the lower level basement walkout well above freezing, electricity for heat is not needed. AC too is not a real need, even in the heat of summer.
Drinking water: the well pump is 220/240VAC, and well water can be a real need, although since we live on a lake, simple water purification filter systems can meet the need for drinking water. I've use those for camping for many years, and the ones available today are simple and inexpensive.
Other water: water for toilet flushing can come with a bucket full from the lake. The septic system is gravity, so need for electricity here either, although we have a lift pump for the walkout level bathroom but that does not need to be used in an emergency. Water for bathing or hot showers is a luxury, and the lake is available from late May through September, sometimes into October. Otherwise a pot of heated water and a sponge bath work just fine. It wasn't too long ago that the weekly bath was a reality, not a joke.
Cooking: with an otherwise all electric house, the cook-top and oven would not be available, but also not really needed. For camping we have a rocket stove, and a few sticks, summer or winter, will cook a large pot of anything, including heating water for that sponge bath.
Lighting: when I think of camping, dawn and dusk mark the days. Up a little before sunrise and to bed after sunset. Very little lighting actually is needed in an emergency. But with LEDs available today, a lighting circuit with LEDs will easily be powered from a small generator if dawn to dusk is too burdensome.
Refrigerator/freezer: electricity for these probably is a necessity, but once again, today's units take very little electricity. This is where the small generator for LED lighting, and now refrigeration, is entirely adequate.
Telephone, DSL, cable box, computer, chargers for handheld smartphones/electronics: used conservatively, these all are minimal electric draw devices; small generator works here too.
Conclusion: live simply, have a small generator with a transfer switch to run refrigeration, lighting and electronics, and "enjoy" the adventure of a power outage.
Heat: Since our primary heat is the wood stove in the living room, which can keep the house main level very comfortable and can keep the lower level basement walkout well above freezing, electricity for heat is not needed. AC too is not a real need, even in the heat of summer.
Drinking water: the well pump is 220/240VAC, and well water can be a real need, although since we live on a lake, simple water purification filter systems can meet the need for drinking water. I've use those for camping for many years, and the ones available today are simple and inexpensive.
Other water: water for toilet flushing can come with a bucket full from the lake. The septic system is gravity, so need for electricity here either, although we have a lift pump for the walkout level bathroom but that does not need to be used in an emergency. Water for bathing or hot showers is a luxury, and the lake is available from late May through September, sometimes into October. Otherwise a pot of heated water and a sponge bath work just fine. It wasn't too long ago that the weekly bath was a reality, not a joke.
Cooking: with an otherwise all electric house, the cook-top and oven would not be available, but also not really needed. For camping we have a rocket stove, and a few sticks, summer or winter, will cook a large pot of anything, including heating water for that sponge bath.
Lighting: when I think of camping, dawn and dusk mark the days. Up a little before sunrise and to bed after sunset. Very little lighting actually is needed in an emergency. But with LEDs available today, a lighting circuit with LEDs will easily be powered from a small generator if dawn to dusk is too burdensome.
Refrigerator/freezer: electricity for these probably is a necessity, but once again, today's units take very little electricity. This is where the small generator for LED lighting, and now refrigeration, is entirely adequate.
Telephone, DSL, cable box, computer, chargers for handheld smartphones/electronics: used conservatively, these all are minimal electric draw devices; small generator works here too.
Conclusion: live simply, have a small generator with a transfer switch to run refrigeration, lighting and electronics, and "enjoy" the adventure of a power outage.
+1 well said.
The primary reason I bought a generator is because we live in a 200 year old house with a leaky stone basement on a high water table. The year we had those record march rains (was it '09 or '10 ?) and got something like 10 inches of rain in a couple days at one point my sump pump was on continuously for 2 days (not cycling, just running) and the water was starting to inch out onto the basement floor.
I got the smallest generator that could handle the startup load of the sump after that - a 3200watt generac. And a battery backup unit, in case the power ever went out during work, and to give me a secondary pump to handle that overflow load.
Mostly as a fun project I wired in a transfer switch so I can also use it to run the septic pump (needed if we had an outage over the 3 day standby capacity of the pump tank) and a few other circuits like the kitchen (fridge) and boiler (for hot water).
- We have the woodstove for heat.
- You can open a window for cooling
- Water is city.
- Kitchen stove is natgas... or if by some disaster that was shutoff there is the grill.
- Cold food - well in winter you can put everything outside in a cooler, or just eat the perishables first.
- Light... flashlights, candles, etc. Many of the flashlights are rechargables and I have DC chargers.
- Entertainment... I have more books lying around than I'll likely ever read , and lots of board games for the kids.
- If I really need to be online we can use tablets and I can power the wifi router off my DC powerbox with an inverter for a couple days, or just use the wifi hospot on the cellphone. (A small deep cycle battery and a car USB charger can recharge phones and tablets for weeks)
In a real long outage and basement water was not an issue I figure I'd only need to run the generator about 2 hours a day - just long enough to cool down the fridge, recharge flashlights, make some hot water for showers and top off the couple deep cycle batteries I have around for the backup pump. with the 10 gallon can in the garage we could go at least a week like that.
----
The ironic thing is, 50 years ago the sump well in the basement had a drain pipe that ran under the road and dumped to daylight on the down slope from us. All gravity powered, no electricity required. Along the way some land owner decided they didn't like that and the drain was cut and plugged, requiring an electric pump. And the septic was just a gravity well too before thee last Title V required reconstruction with pump and raised drainfield.
Ahh, progress!
Easy Livin’ 3000
Minister of Fire
Good question, I have the same one. We need to power the fridge, natural gas furnace circulating pump, well pump, and most importantly, the blower on the new wood insert. We bought the insert partially because we have frequent outages in winter in this part of the world- lots of trees overhanging the power lines. We replaced all of the light bulbs with LEDs earlier this year (thanks PECO subsidy!) in part to lower the load. Other than the well pump, I'm sure a small generator would suffice. Any suggestions about how to get the "juice" needed to start and run the well pump if we are using a small generator to run the rest of the small house? I was imagining some sort of battery/inverter setup tied in.
2 generators? That's what I do. Run the big one once in a while for water.
Easy Livin’ 3000
Minister of Fire
Thanks velvetfoot. A neighbor gave us his old generator because it would not power his well pump. This sounds like the answer- buy a small one new for constant power, and start the other one up for showers, etc. How do you hook them both up?
Agreed. An inverter large enough to take the startup load of a 240VAC well pump is going to be very large and expensive, and will require a big bank of deep cycles wired up on large gauge cables.
That's the tricky part. With 2 generators driving the same load they have to share the load and most importantly be timed so the AC waveform of both gensets are synchronized. Honda and Yamaha make inverter gensets designed for paralleling, they have special cables and the electronics in each unit sync together properly.
I do not believe you can just connect two contractor grade gensets together to the same load without bad things happening. Im no expert on this so some research or talking to an electrician may be in order.
maple1
Minister of Fire
Could you put the well pump on a plug & receptacle setup, then when you needed to genny the pump just unplug it from the receptacle & plug it into the genny? Maybe with an extra short cord in between. A dryer plug setup should work - or a range, think they're rated for more amps. Or a genny plug & receptacle.
I have an generator interlock on my panel. It powers both legs through two breakers. I have a generator inlet on the outside of the house. I plug the big 240v. generator into it. I can also plug a 120v. generator into the same inlet. I rigged up a plug for the 120v. generator such that it feeds both legs. I also throw the breakers on any 240v. appliances. That includes especially the well pump and electric water heater which come on when they want. I'm not sure what would happen if both legs of a 240v. load were fed by one leg: I'm thinking nothing would happen, but I don't know for sure, yet.
That's what I would do. Not try and combine the power of the two gensets but to use the big guy when needed for the big load and only for the big load while the little genset hums along keeping the rest of your home working.
It is unfortunate that the inverter generator market has not provided 240 volt generators in the low wattages. You need to buy some god awful 6000 watt, 600#, electric start, 7000$ generator to get an inverter at 240. None exist at the 3000 watt level.
When you backfeed your entire house through a panel using an interlock you need 240 volts to power both sides of the panel. This means that no 120 volt circuit will have access to more than half of your genset output. So your 3000 watt genset just became a 1500 watt genset for each half of the panel. Then the voltage regulators of non-inverter gensets do some funny things when you heavily load only the one "phase" of the 240 output.
With some sneaky tricks I plan to backfeed both sides of my panel with my 120 volt inverter genset. Superior voltage regulation, clean power, and the ability for any combination of circuits to access the entire generator output. Just no 240 stuff will work.
See post above.
And, what do you think will happen if a 240v device is turned on? My theory is nothing.
I have an generator interlock on my panel. It powers both legs through two breakers. I have a generator inlet on the outside of the house. I plug the big 240v. generator into it. I can also plug a 120v. generator into the same inlet. I rigged up a plug for the 120v. generator such that it feeds both legs. I also throw the breakers on any 240v. appliances. That includes especially the well pump and electric water heater which come on when they want. I'm not sure what would happen if both legs of a 240v. load were fed by one leg: I'm thinking nothing would happen, but I don't know for sure, yet.
Great post velvet. Exactly the sneaky trickery that I spoke of and plan to do. Your interlock is supposed to feed your panel through a double pole (a 240 volt) breaker and NOT two single pole breakers. I have plans and a desire to built that rigged up plug for the 120v genset to feed both legs.
You have to consider the neutral wire size. Since you can feed both hot lines with 120 power and they are both expected to use only the single neutral line you need to limit your genset to what can pass through the single neutral which BTW is not protected by a breaker. My generator backfeed breaker is a 30 amp breaker and I used 10 gauge wire so I know that my max size 240 genset is (30*240=7200 watts) but my max sized 120 volt genset limited by the neutral is only (30x120=3600 watts). I can live with that but know that no breakers inside the house will trip if I were to exceed 3600.
The thing about 240 appliances is that some use a little 120 volt power to run the electronics. You are wise to just throw every 240 breaker while using the cheater 120 volt cord.
I'm not going to risk it. With the floating neutral issue things get very complicated. I powered my Lincoln 240 volt stick welder with a genset once. The genset puts out 240 volts through the 4 wire plug but the Lincoln only needed a three wire input so I made a cheater cord. Depending on whether I combined the ground and neutral, used just the neutral, or used just the ground, the cooling fan on the Lincoln would work or it would not work.
So appliances don't always act like you'd think. They are too expensive to risk leaving energized with that unexpected power of inphase 120. I know I won't be using the 240 appliance anyway and it is easy to flip breakers.
Been thinking about this some more. If you have a 10 gauge neutral it will burst into flames at 30 amps. No breaker protects it. If your genset makes over 3o amps of 120 volt power, so over 3600 even on "surge", then don't do it. It is a bad idea. No breaker will protect you in the house and some gensets can run at over 100% of their rating. I get nervous.
My 2800 running/3100 watt peak inverter genset is safely below the 30 amp limit on the neutral so I feel okay doing it.
http://www.costco.com/Champion-2,80...RB-50-State-compliant).product.100139466.html
Just a couple of things to add to my earlier post.
Do not hook-up 2 generators at the same time unless the manufacturer make that option available.
Pick a generator that produces clean power. Otherwise you have the possibility of torching sensitive electronics/Computers, Televisions, pellet stove electronic boards, microwaves and audio equipment.
As I said earlier, I run a 240 volt Rigid for things that need 240 and devices that have large motors. I run a Honda 3000 invertor generator for 120 volt lower draw devices and gas savings.
I never have both hooked-up at the same time. My hook-up was recommended by my local electrician.
A 30 ft., 10 gauge RV cable with a 30 amp male connector on one end and a female connector on the other. Cut the cord 4ft. from the female end and wired to 2, 120 volt grounded connectors that will plug into the Honda. The remaining 26 ft. of cable with the male connector is wired into 2, 30 amp breakers in the panel. The male connector when not in use is inserted an cable tied in a plastic
junction box with a cover, so it can not be removed when not in use.
When you use 240 volt you plug the male connector into the 240 outlet on the 240 generator. When using the 120 generator, you plug the 2, 120 connectors into the 120 generator and the female 240 female receptacle into the 240 male plug.
I would recommend Contacting a Qualified Electrician for advice for connections for your generators and panel.
Do not hook-up 2 generators at the same time unless the manufacturer make that option available.
Pick a generator that produces clean power. Otherwise you have the possibility of torching sensitive electronics/Computers, Televisions, pellet stove electronic boards, microwaves and audio equipment.
As I said earlier, I run a 240 volt Rigid for things that need 240 and devices that have large motors. I run a Honda 3000 invertor generator for 120 volt lower draw devices and gas savings.
I never have both hooked-up at the same time. My hook-up was recommended by my local electrician.
A 30 ft., 10 gauge RV cable with a 30 amp male connector on one end and a female connector on the other. Cut the cord 4ft. from the female end and wired to 2, 120 volt grounded connectors that will plug into the Honda. The remaining 26 ft. of cable with the male connector is wired into 2, 30 amp breakers in the panel. The male connector when not in use is inserted an cable tied in a plastic
junction box with a cover, so it can not be removed when not in use.
When you use 240 volt you plug the male connector into the 240 outlet on the 240 generator. When using the 120 generator, you plug the 2, 120 connectors into the 120 generator and the female 240 female receptacle into the 240 male plug.
I would recommend Contacting a Qualified Electrician for advice for connections for your generators and panel.
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