Who is using a in the connector damper control or heat reclaimer with a newer EPA wood stove?

[kinsmanstoves]

I would like to know if someone is using a damper or heat reclaimer with a newer wood stove. I had a Harman wood stove owner (I did not sell or install the unit) call me saying she needed to replace the in the connector damper. This shocked me because I have been told under no way should you install a damper or heat reclaimer with a "newer" Harman stove. I told her this and she said the dealer that sold her the stove said she had to have a damper and installed one in her stove connector. *****THAT DEALER IS NO LONGER ALLOWED TO SELL THE HARMAN BRAND*****. I confirmed that by speaking with two Harman Tech reps in Halifax and they confirmed what I said. I further researched this through some NFI people and they also said "most" newer EPA stoves are not designed for a damper or heat reclaimer.

I am not going to call the chimney police on anyone but do want to know if there is anyone out there using a damper or reclaimer and is it working for them.

Thanks
Eric

 

[BrotherBart]

Lots of people using key dampers with EPA stoves. Me included on the one in the basement. If you have unusually strong draft it is the only way to slow those suckers down a little. With normal draft they aren't necessary.

 

[RNLA]

So you really can put the old style, flapper in the pipe style, damper in with a new EPA stove? I have never seen that done. I was told that the temperature in the stove was much higher and it needed to be fully vented. :-/

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

the first time a gasket falls out during operation, and the stove starts to glow, you'll wish you had a pipe damper

 

[NH_Wood]

the first time a gasket falls out during operation, and the stove starts to glow, you'll wish you had a pipe damper

+1 - recent threads discussing this question. Except for some specific installs, flue damper is a no-brainer. Give you an extra bit of control when things go bad. Search the forum for posts about runaway fires - a damper helps control the ability to shut things down when they seem like they are getting out of control. Sure, it is another thing to think (a very minor amount of thinking) about and might be a pain for cleaning the pipe, but.....when you have a raging fire and it looks like the your stove is about to melt........I think the pros out way the cons in many cases. Cheers!

 

[kinsmanstoves]

Thanks guys,

I spend most of my time in pellet stoves vs. wood. With the store we sell 90% pellet stoves to 10% wood and coal units. Most of the wood installs are inserts with a full liner kit.

I did have a PE Super 27 in my house since I built the house in 2002, replaced with a Harman TL300 to use the tax credit last weekend. The wood stove runs most of the time along with a pellet stove at the other end of the house. I use a 14' long 6" Dura Close and Dura Vent HT chimney and with the air controls on the stove there has never been a need for a damper. I can understand the need for a damper but never needed one in my application.

Eric

 

[begreen]

We've seen many folks here that have too strong draft for their EPA stove to perform correctly. This could be a basement installation or a house with a full attic or in other words, a pretty common situation. If there are not mitigating factors, like multiple elbows slowing down the draft, the stove may perform poorly or be difficult to control. Often the symptoms are excessive wood consumption and too high flue temp and/or a flue collar glowing red. In these cases the options are mostly limited to reducing the draft, mixing air in the draft (barometric damper) or reducing intake air supply.

Many stove companies seem to have no documented testing for 3 story flues and no guidance for the installer or user. For example, I just read over the Harman Oakwood and Exception docs regarding venting. Although generically they discuss and warn about the problems associated with tall flues, they provide no upper limit guidance or definition. This leads to failed installs, experimentation and users with problems they bring here to Hearth.com. Good documentation of upper, tested limits would be very helpful here.

 

[BrotherBart]

Been a while since this link has been posted. Florida Bungalow Syndrome.

Good piece on EPA non-cats and chimneys.

http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm

 

[Renovation]

So you really can put the old style, flapper in the pipe style, damper in with a new EPA stove? I have never seen that done. I was told that the temperature in the stove was much higher and it needed to be fully vented. :-/

Yep, that's just completely wrong.

A valid reason to avoid using dampers on EPA stoves is that their *minimum* draft requirement is generally higher than non-EPA stoves, to suck air through their convoluted innards. So installing a damper on a weak-drafting flue could reduce the draft enough, even when the damper is open, to cause problems.

But on a moderate-to-strong-drafting flue, it could be useful.

 

[rdust]

I have one on my stove. I've only used it a time or two when it's cold and the draft is pulling strong. My chimney is around 30' tall so I figured it couldn't hurt to install it.

 

[shawneyboy]

I have one, installer told me I would probably never need it, but better to have and not need, than need (nuclear) and not have, cheap insurance to avoid a total meltdown.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Thanks guys,

I spend most of my time in pellet stoves vs. wood. With the store we sell 90% pellet stoves to 10% wood and coal units. Most of the wood installs are inserts with a full liner kit.

I did have a PE Super 27 in my house since I built the house in 2002, replaced with a Harman TL300 to use the tax credit last weekend. The wood stove runs most of the time along with a pellet stove at the other end of the house. I use a 14' long 6" Dura Close and Dura Vent HT chimney and with the air controls on the stove there has never been a need for a damper. I can understand the need for a damper but never needed one in my application.

Eric

I had the same question and the Harman Tech rep told me not to obstruct the flue with anything.My stove (TL-300 ) is designed to have an unobstructed flue. HE stated the heat reclaimer will reduce the flue temp thus the draft will be reduced.After 2 years of operation,in 2 different locations, i have to agree the this stove needs all the draft it can get.The stronger the draft the better the afterburner works. Never did i have a issue with over firing ,you can turn the air down so far on this stove you would swear its not burning anymore. No way would i ever put any obstructions in my flue for this particular stove. Stove specs say chimney should be 15 to 33 feet tall. Just my 2c.

 

[kinsmanstoves]

From what I have also been told that the newer Harmans HAVE to have a 6" s/s liner for true peek operation in a brick chimney. We have never installed a wood stove without a complete s/s liner system and I know we will not in the future.

Eric

 

[mellow]

I would like to know if someone is using a damper or heat reclaimer with a newer wood stove.

Just wanted to add that this still doesn't mean you can install a Magic Heat. No matter what pook says.

 

[FireWalker]

And here I just started a thread about how my Hearthstone dealer told me I need a damper! What's a boy to do? At least my manual does say that if draft is too strong use of a pipe damper for the equinox is suggested.

 

[wkpoor]

This thread has some relivance to my situation as I'm going to try out an EPA stove for the first time tomorrow and I'm concerned about not being able to positively shut off the air. Don't know if this is typical of new stove or not but all the old ones I've been around you can damper the goes inya all the way to zero. Seems like there is no safety factor there and a stove pipe damper would give me a place to do positive shut down.

 

[Renovation]

This thread has some relivance to my situation as I'm going to try out an EPA stove for the first time tomorrow and I'm concerned about not being able to positively shut off the air. Don't know if this is typical of new stove or not but all the old ones I've been around you can damper the goes inya all the way to zero. Seems like there is no safety factor there and a stove pipe damper would give me a place to do positive shut down.

To quote BrotherBart, all the EPA cares about is if your stove burns cleanly, even if it causes the house around it to burn dirty.

The "damper doesn't go to zero" issue is for EPA compliance, and affects non-cats more than cats. Generally cats can be dampered down further and still meet EPA, and are less likely to benefit from a stovepipe damper.

 

[webby3650]

From what I have also been told that the newer Harmans HAVE to have a 6" s/s liner for true peek operation in a brick chimney. We have never installed a wood stove without a complete s/s liner system and I know we will not in the future.

Eric

Not to start something, but there is nothing wrong with a properly sized, masonry flue that is not damaged, although they are often busted.

 

[branchburner]

I confirmed that by speaking with two Harman Tech reps in Halifax and they confirmed what I said.

Did they say why? It's one thing to have it installed, and another thing to use it incorrectly. I may add a damper myself, so I can run the stove without closing the bypass when I want a quick shoulder-season fire.

Harman should realize their stove offers "peak performance" only under certain conditions. Excessive draft is not one of those conditions. And a quick shoulder-season fire, in a cold stove, is not one of those conditions. A key damper would be useful in both those situations.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I confirmed that by speaking with two Harman Tech reps in Halifax and they confirmed what I said.

Did they say why? It's one thing to have it installed, and another thing to use it incorrectly. I may add a damper myself, so I can run the stove without closing the bypass when I want a quick shoulder-season fire.

Harman should realize their stove offers "peak performance" only under certain conditions. Excessive draft is not one of those conditions. And a quick shoulder-season fire, in a cold stove, is not one of those conditions. A key damper would be useful in both those situations.

Not sure if my TL-300 is the same as your Harman but if for some reason i want to run it with the byass door open i can easily regulate it with the primary air control
Even with the bypass open you still regulate the air intake of the stove with the control on the front of the stove. THe only way you could have a runaway fire is if you had either the front door of the stove or the top loading door open letting in unrestricted amounts of air. Unless im missing something here. I use my harman the same way in all seasons ,in shoulder season i use less wood and set the air control on lower setting but i still use the afterburner to get more btus out of less wood and also for a clean burn,no smoke or creosote. Just my theory anyway.

 

[HotCoals]

My pipes shoot straight up ..two story house..stove on main floor.
I had a damper with the old non-cat Bk so I left it there.
I have played around with it and really notice no diff.
It has not been real windy yet though...I'm leaving it just in case.

 

[branchburner]

Even with the bypass open you still regulate the air intake of the stove with the control on the front of the stove. THe only way you could have a runaway fire is if you had either the front door of the stove or the top loading door open letting in unrestricted amounts of air.

Aren't the secondary air inlets pretty much letting in unrestricted amounts of air, or at least amounts I can't control? Turns out having the front door of the stove wide open is actually a good way to burn in the shoulder season - I have the fireplace screen for it, and it does not run away.

I find if I shut the air too far the glass will blacken, but with bypass open the stove gets over 700F pretty easy without too much air if I'm burning small or very dry wood. Bigger wood needs more air. If I open the air too far, then the flue runs up towards 1000F. So one way or the other, I find I have to close the bypass, even without enough coals to keep the afterburner going. That's my stove, anyway - with 20' insulated 6" liner.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

In both the locations iv used my stove i could not turn the primary air all the way down even with the AB going strong. I figure i just dont have strong enough draft to pull sufficient air through the stove at the lowest air setting ,to keep the glass clean. It seem i was always looking for more draft and my chimney is at least 30' high.
Its possible the air path through the stove is full of twists and turns and slows down the volume of air,especially with the AB engaged. I can certainly see how the stove would run away with the bypass and the door open.