We got our stove finally in basically at the New Year. We get our power bills every 2 months, so we haven’t gotten one yet with the wood stove affecting our heating bills. Looking forward to seeing how much power it saved.
Who gets excited to see their energy bills?
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Isaac Carlson
Minister of Fire
We pay about $100/month in electric, ~$350/yr for propane, and heat with only wood. We have been thinking of putting a 20kw solar on the shed roof, but I don't know if it would be worth it. Can you guys with solar clue me in? Our power company does net metering and pays at least 10c/kwh for power. We had a salesman out and he said we should be making 1-200/month on power, but I want to make sure that is right before plugging in a $40,000 system.
Well, it's more complex than that; and what do salespeople do...? They sell stuff. I assume you are with ATC or someone other than WE Energies. I have WE Energies and from what I have heard they are one of the worst with net metering.
For us, we were told straight out that putting in more than we use is not cost effective. It is too costly at our low buyback to justify the additional expense of more panels to generate excess. Our system was designed to offset our lowest usage billing periods, not our highest. Calculations were based on straight billing, not time of use plan. We do use the time of use plan. What is produced during peak hours directly offsets what is used during peak hours, same with off peak. We never overproduce off peak. Late spring through late summer we overproduce on peak. On peak charges about $.20/kWh, off peak is $.09/kWh, straight use is $.13/kWh. Buy back on peak vary's summer to winter, but is under $.06/kWh.
By calculations based on an average cost increase of 3% per year and no loan costs, it was estimated that it would take about 10 1/2 years to break even, but after that the savings rack up to over 40k saved over the life of the system. Using a roof rake after it snows is critical on our low pitched roof to get any production in winter.
Now there are a lot of variables to consider... we've had a price freeze in place for several years. The utility's keep trying to get an increase pushed through - double digit. At some point they will get it. Loan costs and maintenance need to be included (replace inverter at about 12 years). Because the inverter is run by power from the grid and the net metering, you WILL NOT HAVE POWER if the grid goes down. What you produce goes into the grid. You are not using the power you produce. You are using grid power and offsetting the cost by producing power. Direct offset versus usage, reduced rate buyback. You will still have service connection fees.
The simplified math taking no loan costs or rate increases into consideration would be 40k x .75 (assuming 25% federal tax credit )÷ savings per month of roughly $220 to take 11.5 years to break even. Why $220? I went halfway between the buyback claim you were given and added $70 more saved from the $100 bill figuring you'll still have $30 in fee's... Is this all rock solid? No, but hopefully you get the idea. Maybe your buyback versus charged rates are better than ours. I definitely question the feasibility of buyback justifying a significantly larger system...
I created a spreadsheet to analyze our usage versus production to verify we are best staying on time of use, which we are. It compares on peak and off peak usage and production, buyback, what straight use & buyback would have been, etc. There is not a month where straight is better than on peak/off peak. It is closer in summer, but periods are still better than straight. We are very conscious of our usage and only do laundry and run the water heater off peak.
Do I regret it? No. Over the life of the system it will save us money and is good for the environment... to a point. Research recycling solar panels.
Good luck!
We’re in the process of getting a 17.5kw ground mount solar system. No south facing roof, so it was a better plan since we have the acreage for it too. About $25k after all tax incentives. Supposed to produce 17,000kw-hr per year, which will offset 80% of our pre-wood stove consumption. Figure it should be 90-95% with running the stove for all heating needs. Payments, with interest, will be less than what we would have paid the power company, before any future rate increases are factored in.
I’m off grid in a small cabin with a 5kw solar system. It cost 9k and gives me all the power I need when the suns out. Sometimes in fall and winter I need to run a generator to charge batteries due to lack of sun. It would of cost 20k or more to tie into the grid so it was a no brained to go solar.
Looking at my previous house energy bills I figure the solar should pay for itself in 4-5 years but possible battery replacement or other maintenance costs could cut into that.
I have a small 100 gl propane tank for supplement heat and cooking, have it filled once per year, cost me $200.
it’s nice to have no energy bills coming in but there’s always other bills to make up for it.
Looking at my previous house energy bills I figure the solar should pay for itself in 4-5 years but possible battery replacement or other maintenance costs could cut into that.
I have a small 100 gl propane tank for supplement heat and cooking, have it filled once per year, cost me $200.
it’s nice to have no energy bills coming in but there’s always other bills to make up for it.
Isaac Carlson
Minister of Fire
We are on Dunn Electric with regular metering. About 10 c/kw in winter and 12c/kw in summer. They pay at least what they charge for extra power. We don't have the cash so it would be on a loan, which I don't want unless it can pay for itself AND clear the bill. There are a few 10-20kw systems locally, and I need to talk to them to see how they are doing.
I would start out grid tied and then get batteries later if we wanted them.
There is nothing green about my decision except to save some. If we can get the power bill down to $35, pay the solar loan, and have a little leftover, I'm in. If not, then it's just more headache.
I would start out grid tied and then get batteries later if we wanted them.
There is nothing green about my decision except to save some. If we can get the power bill down to $35, pay the solar loan, and have a little leftover, I'm in. If not, then it's just more headache.
Obviously check out your incentives at this site https://www.dsireusa.org/. Then look at your roof exposure, is it facing south with no shadows from trees or other objects from 8 AM to 4 PM,preferably longer. Pick up a copy of Solar Power your home for Dummies so you know and understand the basics. Go to this site https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/ and enter some basic information on your possible roof exposure. Get a copy of the your utilities net metering rules looking carefully if they have an annual reset date where they reset your surplus to zero. If you do have reset date it probably means you undersize the system so you do not build up a surplus. If they let you carry a surplus for multiple years than you size the system to meet your expected annual load.
Based on your research on local and state incentives you then need to "borrow money from the IRS". This only works if you work a regular job that deducts taxes out of your check every paycheck. At some point you filled out a W2 to tell the employer how many dependents you had. In theory that makes it so you dont owe the government a check next April. The federal tax credit is a credit not a deduction so if you do a solar system this year as long as you owed the amount of the rebate in your taxes (that includes the weekly federal tax deductions on your paycheck ) you get a big check from the fed next year for the credit. The trick is if you know you are putting a solar system in this year you can change your W-2 to withhold less by adding dependents. Its perfectly legal on a W-2, (but very illegal when you do your taxes in April). That means your take home pay increases and you can use that to save up to install part of the solar system. That means you do not get a big check next year. If you start early in the year and install the system later in the year you should have a good downpayment.
Unless you do your own install to cut out labor charges its tough in many markets to get 3 or 4 year payback but 6 or 7 is possible. A self install can be done but it requires skills and some local building departments and utilities will not let you do so. It really depends on your state and local incentives. Powerbills are going to be increasing, the EPA Clean Power Plan is going to force states to cut carbon from power generation and the approach used in CA and New England is fund it on the ratepayers backs. No guarantee on Wi but good chance you have or will have an energy efficiency charge added to all the power you buy. The comment in Mass is you either pay to put in solar or you are paying for your neighbor to do so.
If you have home equity and planning to stay in the same place for several year, generally a home equity loan for solar is regarded as "good debt" as it gets paid back through energy savings.
One very important thing is be very careful about the creative financing that various firms that advertise a lot offer for solar installations. They are almost always a power purchase arrangement or lease where they own the panels and take advantage of most of the benefits. They end up with a lien or some other tricky document on your house and if you ever need to sell the house, they charge you a ransom to get the lien off. These liens legitimately scare away buyers and a major issue with those who sign the deals. The sales folks sell on commission and they are not your friend.
Based on your research on local and state incentives you then need to "borrow money from the IRS". This only works if you work a regular job that deducts taxes out of your check every paycheck. At some point you filled out a W2 to tell the employer how many dependents you had. In theory that makes it so you dont owe the government a check next April. The federal tax credit is a credit not a deduction so if you do a solar system this year as long as you owed the amount of the rebate in your taxes (that includes the weekly federal tax deductions on your paycheck ) you get a big check from the fed next year for the credit. The trick is if you know you are putting a solar system in this year you can change your W-2 to withhold less by adding dependents. Its perfectly legal on a W-2, (but very illegal when you do your taxes in April). That means your take home pay increases and you can use that to save up to install part of the solar system. That means you do not get a big check next year. If you start early in the year and install the system later in the year you should have a good downpayment.
Unless you do your own install to cut out labor charges its tough in many markets to get 3 or 4 year payback but 6 or 7 is possible. A self install can be done but it requires skills and some local building departments and utilities will not let you do so. It really depends on your state and local incentives. Powerbills are going to be increasing, the EPA Clean Power Plan is going to force states to cut carbon from power generation and the approach used in CA and New England is fund it on the ratepayers backs. No guarantee on Wi but good chance you have or will have an energy efficiency charge added to all the power you buy. The comment in Mass is you either pay to put in solar or you are paying for your neighbor to do so.
If you have home equity and planning to stay in the same place for several year, generally a home equity loan for solar is regarded as "good debt" as it gets paid back through energy savings.
One very important thing is be very careful about the creative financing that various firms that advertise a lot offer for solar installations. They are almost always a power purchase arrangement or lease where they own the panels and take advantage of most of the benefits. They end up with a lien or some other tricky document on your house and if you ever need to sell the house, they charge you a ransom to get the lien off. These liens legitimately scare away buyers and a major issue with those who sign the deals. The sales folks sell on commission and they are not your friend.
kennyp2339
Minister of Fire
Had to fill the oil tank this year, got it for $2.20 a gal, 210 gallons later, but that lasts for 2 years since I only run the oil heat as backup and hot water. Electricity is about averaged out at $50 a month with exception when it gets hot and the ac gets turned on, thats also with the stove blower running and my 6" booster fan going (made a huge difference with getting heat upstairs this year) So all in all I feel pretty good, (2) refrigerators going, electric stove, electric dryer, (2) big TV's (led type) and all lighting fixtures led, converted the well pump to 240v when I replaced it a few winters back, higher voltage means lower amperage and less starting shock when running.
Isaac Carlson
Minister of Fire
I used a couple of the solar calculators and the system would JUST pay itself off in 8-10 years. After that it would be putting money in our pockets. We are self employed with no current tax liability, and the house is paid for. I don't think a tax credit would do anything for us, but I could be wrong. I can talk to our tax guy and see of he knows.
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
Sounds like the feds want to push everyone into owning or financing their own solar panels. Certainly it is one way of decreasing loads on the current grid.
Isaac Carlson
Minister of Fire
It's the only way. There is no possible way our grid can handle the millions of electric cars they are pushing. They have their hands in the electric cookie jar and are trying as hard as they can to make it mandatory to fill their own pockets.
"Going green" is not clean. It looks cleaner but the backside is filthy and loaded with pollution.
If you are self employed, you pay taxes unless your deductions exceed your taxes. I think most self employed folks send quarterly estimated taxes. When the next April rolls around, the hopes are that the quarterly estimated payments cover the taxes owed. So in that case the estimated tax payments would be reduced to factor in the solar credit.