Which wood stove for large open log home @ 7600 elev?

[Mr_Super-Hunky]

Elk: you bring up some very good points re a new unproven model.

Vintage: I did take a long hard look at the Jotul 600 firelight and it is a powerhouse for sure. 82,000btu's and a huge firebox. The only reason I passed on it was due to the fact that the dealer said the Lopi Leyden would burn pine much better due to the way it re-burns or something.

The dealer said that the Lopi Leyden would heat my house better than the Jotul as it is just a tighter, better made stove.....(Remember, this dealer IS also the Jotul dealer!).

In a nutshell, I am looking for the most powerful wood stove to heat a 2100sf footprint downstairs. All the heat will rise to the 1500sf loft anyway and we have three fans to kick it back down.

Based on the info given thus far on this forum, I am still considering the following stoves:

Lopi Leyden
Jotul 600 firelight
Hearthstone Mansfield
VC Defiant

Blazeking was on the list but the wife simply could not bear to look at it.

 

[begreen]

You will get shorter burn times regardless of stove due to the wood being burned. You can increase burn times a bit by using larger splits of wood. Given your circumstance I would choose a catalytic stove or a soapstone stove to extend the effective hearing time of the stove. The Defiant cat is a worthy consideration.

FWIW, based on reports from the field, I wouldn't put in an everburn with such strong draft. I recommend you go back and read some of the posts about everburn stoves with strong drafting flues. There is not a lot of difference in everburn stove construction between the VC stoves, Lopi Leyden and Harman Oakwood. The exception is the Isle Royale which is a different design. In the least, you should include a stack damper to whatever stove you put in, especially if non-cat.

I hope MSG can chime in soon. He's heated with soapstone stoves at your altitude in CO. Given that this is your first stove, I think I would go for the soapstone based on ease of use and long heat.

 

[Mr_Super-Hunky]

BeGreen:

Again, you are helping me a lot with very "realistic" useful info.

As I've mentioned, I will only be burning very dry-quick burning pine. (lots of creasote..sp? too)...

My favorite looking stove is definitely the VC Defiant. I am VERY concerned withh all the poor quality reiviews however.

The Jotul 600 firelight seems to be a very good large stove, however, no top loading; only front or right side....(Is top loading that important a feature?).

We've looked at the Hearthstone Mansfield and while an incredibly good looking stove, they sort of clash a bit with the decor of the home. Does anyone else make a soapstone stove?. I've never heard of any other than Hearthstone brand.

I just wish VC made a super-quality stove, then my search would be over as we really like the looks of their stove.......but I know, we are buying a working appliance FIRST, not just a piece of decoration! We really need this thing to heat!

 

[begreen]

The Firelight is a nice stove too. It's simple to operate, and has good capacity, but you'll probably see shorter burn times with it as compared to a catalytic stove. Again, use bigger splits to extend burn time. There is another soapstone manufacturer, Woodstock, that makes excellent stoves. Their stoves are also catalytic. The downside is their biggest, might be a little small for your place, but they have a great reputation.
(broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/pages/wood_stoves.html)

That all brings me back to the Mansfield as first choice. Considering that you realize that this is a heating device first, I'd just get used to its looks. (But then again your partner may not agree.) If you are shy on the Defiant, then my second choice would be the Jotul 600 or a Pacific Energy Summit Classic (or Alderlea T6 when it comes out in fall, if you like the looks of that model better). MSG reports having sold several Isle Royales in the Rockies as well and it has a loyal following. If you want an alternative big stove to consider perhaps take a look at the Englander 30NCL. It's a big, clean burning heater.

Regardless of stove, be sure to add a couple reversible ceiling fans this summer. You'll need them to help distribute the heat that will stratify at the upper levels. Otherwise, if the loft is open to below, it might get uncomfortably warm up there.

 

[restorer]

Did some on-site work for long time customers in a large (10-12,000 sf) home (Lodge?). They have a huge Rumsford looking fire box that the owner designed. It's somewhat a masonry mass heater, I can't explain how it works. They have a huge open area, about 5,000 sf, with a vaulted ceiling three stories tall. The ceiling is heavily pitched at the 3rd floor level. He claims to heat the area with the fireplace, but that's not the tricky part. They both hate ceiling fans, and the top floor has their offices and a music room. That's where I touched up the damage. It was very comfortable, not more than a few degrees warmer than the main floor. I asked how? He said the hot air rising was collected by a duct running the length of the room, concealed in a false beam added to the real one. What they did was create a duct wrap it in pine slab wood, and have the vents on the upper side along the length not visible from below. It looks like two huge logs stacked together. The blower is in a service closet upstairs and pulls air from above and distributes it through six inch ducts at the bottom of the main floor walls. I think he said there were a dozen or so outlets. Nothing as strong as forced air, and you could only feel a gentle movement of air. He said that in the Summer it worked in reverse, draws cool air from down below and deposits along the ridge. Says he took the idea from a commercial air handling system used in a restaurant they like a lot. He just made it look rustic. Didn't ask cost, didn't pry into the how and why, just know he is a very creative thinking engineer that has been extremely successful and doesn't waste a dime.

 

[Todd]

As far as other soapstone stoves go, the Woodstock Fireview has a great rep and I know that one forum member, NYSoapstone heats over 2000 sq ft with his and I heat over 1800 with mine from my finished basement.

But if you and the wife really like the looks of the Defiant, go for it. I think most of the bad reviews were from bad installs or operator error.

 

[Mr_Super-Hunky]

UncleRich:

I know what you mean by "being creative". Our home sounds very similar to that lodge, just a bit smaller. At first, the designing engineer calced out four 12 inch round logs to be lagged together for a vertical support in the house. I asked "why can't you just use one log and cut a big groove in it for a heavy piece of channel iron", which would have about 10 times the structual support. This way, we only had to look at one log supporting the ceiling instead of four; thereby diminishing our head clearance significantly!.

Long story short, we ended up doing it the way I suggested and trust me, I am not an engineer!!.

BeGreen:

I am listening very closely to what you are saying.

Pine = very short burn times. I need to counter that with a stove that does'nt get that hot (soapstone) while using larger cuts of wood..(less surface area).

Tonight, I will do more research on the other soapstone stove.

BTW, with the extremely open floor plan we have, do you think I still need the blower attachment?

 

[begreen]

BTW, with the extremely open floor plan we have, do you think I still need the blower attachment?

If it can be added later, I'd go ahead and try it without it, especially if the place is well insulated and open.

There is another soapstone alternative that I would be remiss not to link you to. It's what I would love to do in this situation. Yeah, it's costly, but a masonry heater sounds like it would fit right in. So while you're dreaming, take a look at this site and see what you think.

http://www.tulikivi.com/www/kotien.nsf/WWWTakka/Fireplace!OpenDocument&id=TA

 

[Mr_Super-Hunky]

Those are some real contemporary looking stoves. There beautiful, but won't fit with the log home and rustic furniture.

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks for the info Goose. We do have three fans already installed at the ridge and the roof pitch is very steep (10/12) so I will actually be blowing the air UP and then the angled ceilings will divert the circulating air back down.

Well that is the way you are SUPPOSED to run ceiling fans in the winter - pulling the hot air up, and bouncing it off the ceiling so that it flows back down along the walls helps keep the drafts down. In the summer most people want to blow straight down to get the extra cooling the breeze provides... Since we have both extremes, and our fan hangs 6' down from a 12/12 pitch ceiling we needed something that we could reverse from the ground since there is no practical way to reach the motor and flip the direction switch on most fans.

Several people have had concers that a single stove of any brand may not be enough.Whether it is or not, I have not heard anyone worry that it may be too much heat!. For that reason, I too am a bit worried that we may be underpowered.

"Underpowered" is a question of definition - how much of the heat load do you want the stove to carry vs. your backup / regular heating system? What is your "comfort temperature"? Will you be happy if the stove gets you to that 90% of the time, but on the ten coldest days of the year, you need to bundle up inside, or use the backup heat to "fill in" the last 10 degrees? How cold does it actually get? Never having lived there, my mental image of "Flagstaff AZ" is more like a hot desert than New England, but that doesn't count for much - more important is what is your usual Winter low temp, how long does it stay that cold, and how many "degree days" of heating do you need? All of these sorts of questions are going to play into the power equation, and alot of them we can't really tell the answers to from where we sit.

The way I see it, a second stove may be worthless upstairs as all my heat is going there anyway.

You said your lower level floor plan is fairly open, would it be feasible to locate a stove near opposite ends or corners of the house? I would probably tend to say pick two stove locations like you were going with a two stove solution, and put a big stove of your choice in the better of the two. Run for a season or two, and decide if you need more heat, and if so, how much, then add a second stove of appropriate size in the second place if needed.

One thing to remember that full log homes have an incredible "thermal mass" in terms of insulation. Once they warm up, they can remain warm relatively easily...(So I am told).

I've heard they have good thermal mass properties, but I've also heard mixed stories about how good they are for "R-value" of insulation, and / or blocking air infiltration. I think mostly this depends on the exact construction technology used, and how well it was applied... I would say air infiltration is going to be your biggest concern.

Should I get the defiant or the new Lopi Leyden, would it be bad for the stove to be running all the time at say medium setting?, or should I possibly hold out for the upcoming monster equinox by Hearthstone?. Maybe that tank at 80,000 btu.s with a 4.0+ cf box would do the job.

Having any stove running 24/7 at a medium heat, or even a high heat that isn't over firing is fine, thats what a stove is designed to do. A soapstone stove especially works best when used for 24/7 burning. However, I think you are going to have some trouble doing this. 1. Your high ceiling is going to mean you'll have stronger than average draft, which is going to give you a tendency to over-fire, and the natural tendency of pine to give short HOT fires is also going to give you a tendency to over fire.

A couple of other folks have mentioned the idea of your looking into "Masonry Heaters" - the Tulakivi is one brand, there are others, mostly quasi-custom built for each home. In many ways they would be IDEAL for you, and I would reccomend looking seriously at them.

I may be putting a very expensive grand piano in the house so I am also concerned with humidity levels. I've read an outside combustion air kit will possibly prevent the home from getting to dry and stuffy. Any thoughts ?

An Outside Air Kit (OAK) is mostly needed to supply outside air in the case of homes that are very tightly sealed and / or have lots of other exhaust air appliances (such as a big exhaust fan on the stove) that compete for combustion air. Without the OAK, you "burn" room air, which is replaced by outside air infiltrating into the house - some folks see this as a good thing for bringing in "fresh air" The problem is that outside air is usually drier so you'd possibly have to keep re-humidifying it. An OAK would mean you "burn" outside air, which would reduce that problem. Other than that issue, there probably isn't that big a difference between wood heat and any other, besides the fact that you might have more fluctuations - I'd be more worried about temperature changes than humidity.

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

I was running out of space in the earlier, so I thought I'd start a new post adding to my earlier comment backing the suggestion of a masonry heater for your application.

A masonry heater, unlike a stove, is generally a custom built permanent part of your structure. Most times it is suggested they be designed in, and built as part of new construction, but they can be retrofitted in some cases.

In essence an MH is a BIG masonry structure that contains a very convoluted smoke passage that usually goes up and down a few times, and a relatively small, tightly sealed firebox, with a generous but carefully controlled airflow. They must be fairly centrally located in a structure, and do best with very open floor plans. It is not uncommon for them to incorporate a large cook oven suitable for breads, roasting, pizzas and the sort - a traditional "brick oven" IOW. They can also incorporate heat exchangers for radiant floor heating (in a bathroom for instance) and / or domestic hot water pre-heating.

The reason I think an MH might work very well for you is that you have a large open floorplan, with a big footprint. An MH can be built in almost any size, so a good designer could certainly put one in that was appropriate for your home and location.

You are going to have a good draft setup, which an MH should have, so that isn't a problem, and will give you the ability to get a more convoluted smoke passage, improving your efficiency.

The really big advantage IMHO is that a woodstove is intended to operate with a fairly slow, low temperature fire for a long duration burn, which your pine fuel is going to make difficult at best. But an MH has an entirely different operating principle - It is intended that you build 1-3 short, hot, high intensity fires a day, exactly the sort of fires that pine "wants" to make. Unlike a conventional woodstove, it is almost impossible to over-fire an MH. The heat from these very hot fires gets stored in the masonry mass which then radiates it out over the next 12-24 hours. An MH is the extreme example of a soapstone stove in terms of thermal mass heat storage, but while your soapstone stove may weigh a few hundred pounds, your MH will weigh tons, and store that much more heat. However it will also avoid the temperature swings that I would worry about if you are also putting in a fancy piano.

The downside of an MH is that it's a custom built thing that has certain architectural and engineering demands, such as a suitable footing, central location, etc. and it's relatively expensive... Upside is that they are impressive looking, and can be made to fit into any decor depending on how the exterior is finished. Some folks claim they are environmentally cleaner and more efficient than conventional woodstoves, others argue that point.

Because they have a very long "lag time" between when you build the fire and when you get the heat, you would need to pay fairly close attention to the weather forecasts to determine how much you need to feed it today in order that you will have the right amount of heat tomorrow. The idea is that you deal with temperature adjustment by building more or less fires, and in some cases smaller fires each day

(I doubt it will ever happen, but if I were ever in a position to build a new home with only moderate budgetary constraints, I would probably put an MH very high on my desired feature list...)

I would strongly suggest that you look into them as well as wood stoves, I think they might be a better fit for your application

Gooserider

 

[Mr_Super-Hunky]

Goose:

Thanks for the in-depth reply and explanation of masonry heaters.

Our log home is only a month or so from being finished and we did not incorporate a masonry heater into our plans as I was not aware of them.

We do have a giant Magestic 42'' penninsula wood burning fireplace built into the center of the great room as a giant center piece; however, technically, I think firing that sucker up would actually cool the house down due to the combustion air requirements.

My thinking has possibly changed, and that is I may now be looking to offset the quick-hot fire characteristics of burning only pine with a cooler, slower burning stove..i.e soapstone.

Or........could I just use say a large cast iron stove and keep the setting at a lower temperature to slow down and extend the burn time of pine?.

This may sound a bit nuts, but how about soaking a few of the pine logs in water to slow down there burn rate?. I've heard of people doing this with certain types of wood when barbequeing fish on the grill.

 

[begreen]

Goose:

Thanks for the in-depth reply and explanation of masonry heaters.

Our log home is only a month or so from being finished and we did not incorporate a masonry heater into our plans as I was not aware of them.

We do have a giant Magestic 42'' penninsula wood burning fireplace built into the center of the great room as a giant center piece; however, technically, I think firing that sucker up would actually cool the house down due to the combustion air requirements.

My thinking has possibly changed, and that is I may now be looking to offset the quick-hot fire characteristics of burning only pine with a cooler, slower burning stove..i.e soapstone.

Or........could I just use say a large cast iron stove and keep the setting at a lower temperature to slow down and extend the burn time of pine?.

This may sound a bit nuts, but how about soaking a few of the pine logs in water to slow down there burn rate?. I've heard of people doing this with certain types of wood when barbequeing fish on the grill.

You could be right, if it's wide open, the grand fireplace could be just for show and not for go. However, it might be nice on summer nights.

A Tuklivi can be made to blend into most decors. But the Tuklivi is only one brand of soapstone masonry heater. There are others, right down to total custom units.

You'll want to burn reasonably hot in order to keep the stack warm enough to keep creosote down and provide meaningful heat to the home. Soaking the wood in water is not a good plan. Think about it, a barbeque has no chimney. Wet wood + long stack = lots of creosote and little heat.

 

[Gooserider]

Goose:

Thanks for the in-depth reply and explanation of masonry heaters.

No problem, glad to help...

Our log home is only a month or so from being finished and we did not incorporate a masonry heater into our plans as I was not aware of them.

We do have a giant Magestic 42'' penninsula wood burning fireplace built into the center of the great room as a giant center piece; however, technically, I think firing that sucker up would actually cool the house down due to the combustion air requirements.

Dumb thought, but is that a masonry unit or a prefab? If it's masonry you presumably already have the footings you'd need, would it be possible to re-engineer it into a Masonry Heater? It might not be cheap, but would seem like a way to go that would get the heat AND a nice looking peninsula setup, possibly better than a fireplace that you don't want to use...

My thinking has possibly changed, and that is I may now be looking to offset the quick-hot fire characteristics of burning only pine with a cooler, slower burning stove..i.e soapstone.

That might work, but the challenge will be burning the pine without over-firing. It should be possible, but you will need to be real careful to watch your fires and stack temps closely until you get the hang of using the stove. You will also need to watch things like gasket seals on the doors and such closer than most because of your high draft potential, in addition to the pine.

Or........could I just use say a large cast iron stove and keep the setting at a lower temperature to slow down and extend the burn time of pine?

That is also a possibility, but the soapstone will probably do it better.

This may sound a bit nuts, but how about soaking a few of the pine logs in water to slow down there burn rate?. I've heard of people doing this with certain types of wood when barbequeing fish on the grill.

ABSOLUTELY NOT BG said if well in the previous post... As further explanation, you have a certain amount of BTU's / lb of wood, the exact number depends on wood species, etc. but burning a pound of a given wood can potentially release that many BTU's. Some of those BTU's go into breaking down the wood into it's component gases, and some go up the flue as hot smoke, which is needed to make the stove work. However even with dry wood, one of the earliest stages of combustion is to EVAPORATE any moisture in the wood. Typical "dry" firewood will have about 15-20% moisture - Green wood can be almost 100%, and any BTU's used to evaporate the water are not available to you as heat. So trying to burn wet pine, whether it is green, or you soaked it will give you a cooler fire that burns just as fast but doesn't put out any heat.

When smoking food on the BBQ, the idea is that you want the wood volatiles to get carried off in the smoke and get deposited on the food where it's called "flavor" soaking the wood keeps it too cool to ignite properly so it makes a lot of cool smoke.... In a wood stove we want to BURN those volatiles - anything we burn is called heat, anything that doesn't gets to condense in the chimney where we call it creosote, which is at best a nusiance and at worst a fire hazard. If the volatiles make it out of the chimney, we call them pollution...

We see lots of "problem burners" here, and one of the most common causes of excess smoke and / or "fire burns but doesn't make heat" complaints is wood that isn't dry enough...

Gooserider (edited to fix quotes)

 

[alfio]

Goose:

Thanks for the in-depth reply and explanation of masonry heaters.

Our log home is only a month or so from being finished and we did not incorporate a masonry heater into our plans as I was not aware of them.

We do have a giant Magestic 42'' penninsula wood burning fireplace built into the center of the great room as a giant center piece; however, technically, I think firing that sucker up would actually cool the house down due to the combustion air requirements.

My thinking has possibly changed, and that is I may now be looking to offset the quick-hot fire characteristics of burning only pine with a cooler, slower burning stove..i.e soapstone.

Or........could I just use say a large cast iron stove and keep the setting at a lower temperature to slow down and extend the burn time of pine?.

This may sound a bit nuts, but how about soaking a few of the pine logs in water to slow down there burn rate?. I've heard of people doing this with certain types of wood when barbequeing fish on the grill.

Hi, super; I don't think thats a good idea , that would make to much creosote; a fire hazard . For a big place like yours I would agree with titan and look in to a big fireplace stove like the napoleon , or the quad. With one of those stoves they can be duct to were you need the heat .

 

[Todd]

We do have a giant Magestic 42'' penninsula wood burning fireplace built into the center of the great room as a giant center piece; however, technically, I think firing that sucker up would actually cool the house down due to the combustion air requirements.

Is this where you want your stove? Have you looked into a hearth stove or insert stove for your fireplace? If your fireplace is in a good central location of your home, that would be the best place for your stove.

 

[Todd]

Thanks for the info Goose. We do have three fans already installed at the ridge and the roof pitch is very steep (10/12) so I will actually be blowing the air UP and then the angled ceilings will divert the circulating air back down.

Well that is the way you are SUPPOSED to run ceiling fans in the winter - pulling the hot air up, and bouncing it off the ceiling so that it flows back down along the walls helps keep the drafts down. In the summer most people want to blow straight down to get the extra cooling the breeze provides... Since we have both extremes, and our fan hangs 6' down from a 12/12 pitch ceiling we needed something that we could reverse from the ground since there is no practical way to reach the motor and flip the direction switch on most fans.

Are you sure about that? I always thought you push the warm air down with a ceiling fan? Hot air will naturally rise up the walls and then you push it back down towards the center of the house.

 

[Mr_Super-Hunky]

Todd: Regarding the ceiling fans; I would like to answer your question as it could possibly be my first actual "contribution" to this forum instead of just sucking it dry for info !!haha!

The reason you (or at least me) would want the ceiling fans to blow UP is that they hang about 6-8 feet lower than the ridge beam of the home. Since heat rises, If the fans only blew down, I would be creating a "hot pocket" of trapped air in the 6-8 foot gap between the fan and the top of the ceiling.

Furthermore, we have a very steep pitched roof so any air blown UP will easily be diffused by the angled ceiling walls back down, only to eventually rise back up again. This should be considered a very good thing as we now have a good flow of circulation from the highest point in the house back down to the main floor.

Can someone please give me a "pat on the back" if you think I am right as this would be my very first helpful tip to others!!

 

[begreen]

There has been a lot of discussion about this, but super is correct. Human skin will feel cooler with wind blowing across it. In the winter, you don't want this 'wind chill' effect. By circulating the heat in reverse, it will travel down the cooler outside walls before returning up the middle of the house to the ceiling fans. That's a good thing. It's leaves the interior feeling much more comfortable and evenly heated and puts the heat where it's needed, at the outside walls.

 

[titan]

Congrats Mr S-H,you're correct.IN winter the fan should be pulling cooler air from the floor to the ceiling,then forcing this mixed air down the nearest walls which aids in eliminating drafts via these exterior walls.

 

[Gooserider]

Ended up with a duplicate of an earlier post somehow - fixed...

 

[Mr_Super-Hunky]

BTW, everyone, we did seriously consider "converting" the current 42'' penninsula fireplace into an actual heat producer, however, it is such a centerpiece in the home, we want to leave that alone. Besides, the wife wants the 3-sided view which the dining, kitchen and great room were built around to view.

We do however have lots of open floor space for a free standing wood stove which is why I am looking into all options on those.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

drop in a 30

 

[Kyle Brock]

HEARTHSTONE EQUINOX WOOD STOVE USERS:: I am in the process of buying either a Hearthstone Equinox, or a Pacific Energy Summit wood stove to fit in my 3000 sq. foot log home. It is an open floor plan. Price is not much of an issue, due to me enjoying wood heat, and lots of it. I have been a wood burner for 20 years, and like the house very warm. I am wondering if it would take too long for the equinox to warm up the house because of the delay in the heat. Plus, would it keep it toasty warm while I am gone. I live in North Idaho where temps. are rather cold in the winter. If I go to work, will it sustain the heat, and will I struggle to keep up with the heat when I get home from work. I'm looking for the biggest, warmest heater out there. Any helpful experiences would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[fullbore]

You might want to start a new thread...This one is over a year old. My Quad 5700 does a great job.