Where is the EMERGENCY SHUT-OFF switch on my woodstove?

[SlyFerret]

I've heard so will a wet ferret...

:grrr:

-SF

 

[Jags]

Both baking soda and baking powder have been mentioned in this thread.
Once and for all- which is it?

Hey Toni - it depends on how much you want the finished product to rise. ;-)

 

[jadm]

Good thread.

When purchasing a wood burning 'device' I have noticed that there is ample info. on how hot stove will burn and how long. Very little is said about too hot. In fact I had to ask where 'safety' items were sold. One store had Chimfex sticks for sale - It looks like a flare and will extinguish a fire once activated and placed in the fire box.

I know with my insert if I turn the blowers on it will cool things down pretty quickly and have read here that a free standing fan facing the firebox will cool it down too - (Shutting down primary air all the way 1st of course.)

Now that we all have good tricks to try - should we have a forum 'fire drill'. ;-)

 

[firefighterjake]

Both baking soda and baking powder have been mentioned in this thread.
Once and for all- which is it?
And how much?

I am certain that it has always been baking soda recommended to me in the past, but three times here I have read baking powder.
This needs to be clarified and put in a sticky or FAQ.
IMO

BAKING SODA . . . not baking powder (capital letters intentional).

Baking powder typically contains flour and/or cornstarch which are both combustible. Many folks do not realize that items like flour, sugar, etc. cannot only catch on fire, but can actually explode (dust explosion) when the right combination occurs . . . but don't worry, we're talking fine particulates . . . your tin full of flour will not spontaneous explode . . . but I wouldn't make a mistake and throw flour on to a raging woodstove fire.

 

[firefighterjake]

Instant off should be easy, just use CO2 fire extinguisher directed at the air intake. That should smother the flame very quick. However the draft will pull fresh air back into the box with unperdictable results.

OK other suggestions on further blocking the air intakes?

I've read many folks suggest damping down primary air as much as possible and then blocking off the secondary air with a sheet of aluminum foil to kill the fire . . . I would be a bit concerned about using a CO2 extinguisher close to a very hot woodstove as CO2 is rather cool when it comes out and a direct application may have (notice may . . . I don't know for sure and I'm not about to try an experiment on my own woodstove) an adverse affect on the stove. Perhaps if the CO2 was shot near the intake . . . but it would be hard to control the CO2 from direct contact . . . and more to the point most folks don't have CO2 extinguishers . . . . which is truly a tragedy since I understand they're very good at cooling down beverages that come in aluminum cans.

 

[johnsopi]

In would think a bucket of water to be a bad idea. Thermal shock to the steel stove, burns from steam ect. Sand or ash or fire exstinger

 

[firefighterjake]

My opinion . . .

#1: Don't get into the situation. Learn how to run the woodstove. Learn when to add fuel. Learn about how different size and types and amounts of fuel will affect the stove temp. Keep the flue and chimney clean of creosote. Don't get into the habbit of using the ash pan door to start a fire. Don't wander away from the stove when you're getting it started or immediately after you've added a fresh load of wood.

OK, but let's now be realistic . . . there is always that one time when one's good judgment may lapse or someone who doesn't know better decides to load the woodstove to the gills with 2 inch, well seasoned cedar kindling and they leave the door open to get the fire going . . . before wandering off to take a 20-minute bathroom break/reading break . . . so what do you do then?

#2: I like Glenng's suggestion. Lots of water + hot stove = bad, very bad things occuring to the stove and/or chimney. Glenng's suggestion is taking advantage of the fact that when water turns to steam it expands in volume . . . to me this would be a more "gentle" way of slowly bringing down the temps . . .

#3: A close tie would go to Dow Jones wet newspaper in a plastic bag trick . . . another idea where it would allow steam conversion to take place and would also work to smother the fire to some degree as well. I don't like the idea of throwing plastic into my woodstove . . . but I suppose if this is a last-ditch effort to control the temps and my choices are dealing with a bit of plastic burning in the woodstove or having every plastic appliance in my house burning in a house fire I would choose the plastic bag in the stove.

#4: For simplicity . . . you can't beat the sand and smothering the fire. However, I know my wife would never allow me to leave a bucket of sand in the living room, no matter how pretty the bucket would be decorated.

#5: I'm not completely sold on baking soda or fire extinguishers . . . to be effective it would have to cover the area and be sustained . . . plus it can get messy. But again . . . a little mess in the living room and stove vs. the big mess from a house fire = no brainer decision. I do however love fire extinguishers and baking soda baggie bombs for use in chimney fires. Baggie bombs can be dropped from the top of the chimney -- work very well for a plugged up chimney while extinguishers shot up a clean out can draft upwards and extinguish a fire.

#6: I've heard about flares being used . . . but once again I'm not really sold on them. It just seems as though there are easier and cheaper ways of putting out a fire . . . but if you've got 'em and you've got a fire going that you need to stop, you might as well try.

Final advice . . . in my opinion . . . if you feel the need to completely extinguish a fire in your stove I would highly suggest calling 911 for some added help. While some departments may take a while to get to you when they're there they will have many more useful tools than you in case the fire has not gone out . . . or in case there is a need to make sure the fire has not extended beyond the chimney and woodstove (i.e. thermal imaging cameras, heat detectors, etc.)

 

[firefighterjake]

In would think a bucket of water to be a bad idea. Thermal shock to the steel stove, burns from steam ect. Sand or ash or fire exstinger

Looks like we were typing at the same time . . . I share the same concern about thermal shock to steel stoves, cast iron stoves and soapstone.

There are four ways to "kill" a fire: remove the fuel (not possible unless anyone relishes grabbing those burning splits and rounds and dragging them outside . . . and yes I am kidding . . . this would be an exceptionally bad idea), eliminate the oxygen (by cutting off or reducing the air flow from primary and secondary air intakes or using sand/ash to isolate the oxygen and fuel), reducing the ignition temp (by cooling with water . . . but again by a more gradual means) or by breaking apart the burning process through chemical means (i.e. baking soda, fire extinguishers, etc.)

 

[RobinJoe]

EPA approved stoves cannot, by design, allow complete closure of all air intake. Some people have devised ways around it.
The culprit is usually the secondary air intake.

After reading many posts on this website, I agree your statement seems to be true, however, as a future stove owner I also find this issue to be very disconcerting on so many levels! While EPA stoves are the current trend how in the world did the EPA approve something that can act like a runaway locomotive with no way to stop it??? While I also understand people with a 'runaway' can sometimes cool off their stove by shutting down the air and blowing a fan across the face of their stove to cool it off, to me this is not a good design. I am no rocket scientist but I do want control. I want a stove for all the benefits it can offer but "I" also want to control it - what is the solution????

I realize my fireplace is a hole-in-the-wall heat loss, but at least if I want to shut my fireplace down I can do so just by closing the glass doors and closing off the air intake. Why can't I find a stove that I can shut down if need be?

Shari

I had glass doors on my fireplace before installing our Lopi Declaration insert. Even with the old glass doors closed, there was plenty of combustion air coming in around the cracks to keep the fire raging.

With the Lopi, when I close down the air supply, I can bring a raging fire down to a smoldering pile of wood with a few little flames in about 15 seconds.

If I open the Lopi's doors a tiny crack, the flames shoot up again. This indicates that, while it may not shut down the air completely, it shuts it down to a tiny trickle.

I'm not sure if all EPA wood stoves shut down the air as well, but I'm confident that the best way to control a raging fire with the Lopi Declaration is with the air control. It is certainly a lot safer than a masonry fireplace.

 

[firefighterjake]

EPA approved stoves cannot, by design, allow complete closure of all air intake. Some people have devised ways around it.
The culprit is usually the secondary air intake.

After reading many posts on this website, I agree your statement seems to be true, however, as a future stove owner I also find this issue to be very disconcerting on so many levels! While EPA stoves are the current trend how in the world did the EPA approve something that can act like a runaway locomotive with no way to stop it??? While I also understand people with a 'runaway' can sometimes cool off their stove by shutting down the air and blowing a fan across the face of their stove to cool it off, to me this is not a good design. I am no rocket scientist but I do want control. I want a stove for all the benefits it can offer but "I" also want to control it - what is the solution????

I realize my fireplace is a hole-in-the-wall heat loss, but at least if I want to shut my fireplace down I can do so just by closing the glass doors and closing off the air intake. Why can't I find a stove that I can shut down if need be?

Shari

There is such a stove . . . but it's a pelletstove . . . or oil furnace, propane furnace, oil boiler.

On a serious note I understand what you're saying about modern woodstoves being able to "run away" . . . but the truth of the matter is even pre-EPA stoves can take off like a space shuttle and go uncontrolled. In fact, while it is true some of the pre-EPA, air-tight stoves could damper down to nothing, these same stoves also were notorious for creating conditions where chimneys would fill up with creosote and when that caught on fire it matters not a whit if there was a damper or not as those chimneys would just light off like a Roman candle (although I should state that I shouldn't describe these in past tense since I still see quite a few of these fires as many folks are still using these old smoke dragons.)

The true solution to keeping today's EPA stoves and yesteryear's pre-EPA stoves running at maximum efficiency and safely is to know how to operate a stove, know how to load a stove, install it to manufacturer's specs and maintain it properly.

 

[LLigetfa]

My first RSF in my former home would run away for several reasons. 1, I had a very good draft. 2, The primary air is fixed, not adjustable. 3, The butterfly on the thermostatically controlled damper for secondary air was notched out to ensure some airflow even when closed. The dealer offered a replacement butterfly with smaller notch but I only found I had the problem after I had built it in and would have required tearing it out to replace. What I did instead was to partially plug the primary air intake and I added upper and lower vents on the chimney chase to lower the flue temps, thus lowering the draft.

There was another workaround that involved removing some gasket material by the butterfly and inserting a metal block-off plate where the notch was.

 

[oconnor]

In keeping with firefighterjakes statement on safe operation:

THERE IS NO WAY I'M GOING TO OPEN MY STOVE TO ADD ANYTHING (EVEN TO PUT OUT THE FIRE) WHEN I THINK I HAVE A CHIMNEY FIRE.

I did it once, and the resulting roar convinced me that more air was BAD, and the creosote dripping back into the firebox (Pre EPA stove) scared me much.

Putting it out earlier isn't going to save me anything - I've already had a chimney fire, so I need a complete inspection of the liner before I can light it again, and my chimney is built to withstand the heat of the chimney fire and not spread it to combustibles (insulated liner inside masonary chimney).

Personally, if you don't trust that your flue can contain a chimney fire, don't light the stove.

If you are in a remote area and have no access to fire services, figure out how to address the issue from the roof, and prepare for that.

 

[LLigetfa]

...figure out how to address the issue from the roof, and prepare for that.

Around here all the really old homestead houses had a permanent ladder on the roof to the chimney. Likely to facilitate cleaning but also for a quick response in case of a fire.

I remember having a chimney fire and scrambling to get a ladder up onto the roof so I could put it out.

 

[glenng]

While the results of putting out a wood stove fire with water can be disastrous, I have found a quick way to kill an over fire. Continuously spray a mist of water from a quality spray bottle on to the fire. 30 seconds to 1 minute of spraying will bring a raging fire to idle. I keep a spray bottle handy. I learned the trick from an old timer and it works. I had to use this method once and it worked quickly and safely. This method works for a fire in the stove. This method will not work for a chimney fire.

Do you open the stove and spray directly on the fire or do you spray the water into the air intake?

Yes. Open the door and start spraying directly on the fire. The cool thing about this method is that you can practice it without making a mess. Next time you are bored get a spray bottle and start spraying your fire when the stove is maxed out. You can learn and see what happens without making a mess or causing a disaster. Its good to practice once just to know it works and to see what will happen in an emergency.

Glenn

 

[RedRanger]

Do you put the pedal to the metal with a brand new car?

Learn how to operate your new stove/insert. And no such thing as a runaway fire.

I will say dry seasoned wood, and will repeat--dry seasoned wood. burn it till the secondaries kick in and gradually turn it down, not rocket science we are talking about.

A year ago at this time I too was worried about the lack of control,,, not anymore. This new technology beats the ass off the old stuff.

Only exception I can think of is the downdraft burners. Looks like a bit more of a learning curve, and even then, maybe not work quite right.

But that is why you are on this forum, right? to learn how to operate your new appliance properly?

 

[hicksonj]

I am the poster-child for "poop happening" with stoves. I had a window fall in (posted about it) and a damper linkage crack (didn't post about it, but it allowed the damper to fall wide open). In both instances the stove was well on the way to roasting itself. The saving grace in both instances was a second damper. This damper is in the stovepipe (mine is insulated pipe). When I crank it 90 degrees (blocking position), the stove chokes itself down very quickly. N.b. DO NOT open the doors when you do this or your home becomes the path of least resistance for smoke. In case of a chimney fire, my plan is to crank the pipe damper, run down to the basement cleanout door with a extinguisher, crack it open and start blasting!

 

[glenng]

Do you put the pedal to the metal with a brand new car?

Learn how to operate your new stove/insert. And no such thing as a runaway fire.

I will say dry seasoned wood, and will repeat--dry seasoned wood. burn it till the secondaries kick in and gradually turn it down, not rocket science we are talking about.

A year ago at this time I too was worried about the lack of control,,, not anymore. This new technology beats the ass off the old stuff.

Only exception I can think of is the downdraft burners. Looks like a bit more of a learning curve, and even then, maybe not work quite right.

But that is why you are on this forum, right? to learn how to operate your new appliance properly?

Dont be a schmuck. Everyone started out as a newbie myself included. When a new wood stove owner gets their 1st stove there are going to be questions. Are you here to prove how great you are at operating your wood stove? I am here to share the knowledge that I have learned and to pass it on. I haven't figured it all out so when I do have a question I want it answered with empathy not with ego.

Glenn Gertz

 

[Highbeam]

Dang canadians!

The EPA cares about emissions and not about safety. Not at all about safety. What do those initials stand for? That's right, not safety. That said, a clean burning stove can be a safe stove but the current stoves have sacrificed control so that you are unable to burn them in a manner that is dirty.

Through trial and error I have learned that my stove will not exceed 450 with the primary air closed as far as possible. In no case have I been able to make this stove run away. I haven't tried foolish things but during normal operation to include maximum stoking for long fires, the stove remains dependable in that it won't run away. There are times when I can't prevent the stove from running up to 450 and the flames rage when I want it to be 400 but I know and am confident that it is safe. That's the best you can do with the EPA stoves.

I want more control. So I plan to install an emergency shut off switch in the form of a flue damper. There is no safe method to "shut off" a wood burning stove but you can act to bring it under control.

My last stove was a Lopi freedom bay insert and it would run away. The secondary air source was plenty to get us in trouble but the real problem was the huge masonry chimney flue that would suck the stove into a blacksmith's forge.

 

[RedRanger]

Do you put the pedal to the metal with a brand new car?

Learn how to operate your new stove/insert. And no such thing as a runaway fire.

I will say dry seasoned wood, and will repeat--dry seasoned wood. burn it till the secondaries kick in and gradually turn it down, not rocket science we are talking about.

A year ago at this time I too was worried about the lack of control,,, not anymore. This new technology beats the ass off the old stuff.

Only exception I can think of is the downdraft burners. Looks like a bit more of a learning curve, and even then, maybe not work quite right.

But that is why you are on this forum, right? to learn how to operate your new appliance properly?

Dont be a schmuck. Everyone started out as a newbie myself included. When a new wood stove owner gets their 1st stove there are going to be questions. Are you here to prove how great you are at operating your wood stove? I am here to share the knowledge that I have learned and to pass it on. I haven't figured it all out so when I do have a question I want it answered with empathy not with ego.

Glenn Gertz

I thought the don`t put the metal to the petal was empathy..

But Glenn: if you have better advice--"go for it"..

For your info, I am still learning lots about how my new insert behaves, compared to the old one.

And fyi, it was almost impossible to over-fire the old beast, not so with these newer ones.

So again, at the risk of your wrath--"don`t put the pedal to the metal"====possible overfireing.

Is still sound advice. Mr.Gertz......

 

[karri0n]

Do you put the pedal to the metal with a brand new car?

Learn how to operate your new stove/insert. And no such thing as a runaway fire.

I will say dry seasoned wood, and will repeat--dry seasoned wood. burn it till the secondaries kick in and gradually turn it down, not rocket science we are talking about.

A year ago at this time I too was worried about the lack of control,,, not anymore. This new technology beats the ass off the old stuff.

Only exception I can think of is the downdraft burners. Looks like a bit more of a learning curve, and even then, maybe not work quite right.

But that is why you are on this forum, right? to learn how to operate your new appliance properly?

Dont be a schmuck. Everyone started out as a newbie myself included. When a new wood stove owner gets their 1st stove there are going to be questions. Are you here to prove how great you are at operating your wood stove? I am here to share the knowledge that I have learned and to pass it on. I haven't figured it all out so when I do have a question I want it answered with empathy not with ego.

Glenn Gertz

I don't think he was trying to be offensive or even arrogant. For the most part, people on here don't tend to be rude in the manner that you are referencing. Maybe there was a misunderstanding here? I certainly hope you're just having a bad day.