What's up with all you members running the old pre-EPA smoke dragons?

[jabush]

Just wondering why you folks haven't chose to upgrade? Especially considering the good fire sales going on right now.

Don't get me wrong, I love old equipment, wouldn't trade my Internationals for anything, but I also don't drive them everyday.

So what's the deal? Why are you keeping those ancient metal boxes running?

-Kevin

Good thread Wrench!!
I never thought about upgrading my stove until I started hangin out here. I've gone back and forth...hemmed and hawwed, and in the mean time, I've gotten pretty damn good at running my stove more cleanly and efficiently(thanx hearth.com). So much so that I'm attached to it now and very comfortable using it to heat the house.
The main reason I think about new stoves is the better efficiency, as well as being able to view the fire. These two things aren't really that pressing as far as I'm concerned and they don't warrant running out and buying a stove right away. Plus I spent the cost of a new stove on having my chimney relined.
I guess if I had to purchase all my cordwood, then efficiency would be a bigger factor. However, I don't anticipate ever buying cordwood again after this season. There's just too much free wood to be had around here.
As far as the "old smoker" moniker. I think that comes from many years of people burning incorrectly, regardless of the stove they own(ed). My stove smokes on startup, just like a new stove. My stove smokes on reload, just like a new stove. Other than that it's just heat waves coming out the stack unless it's damped down for the overnight burn (i know it smokes some then). Now...my neighbor who burns a Morso 1125 has smoke coming out the stack most all the time. He would get the same results no matter which stove he burned because his wood is wet.
Anywoo...some day I'm sure I will upgrade. Just not right now.

 

[struggle]

OK i will bite on this one,

Pre EPA Vigilant in house from origianl owner when I bouight home (it was selling point to me). Now after rebuilding the Vigilant and its effeiceny incereased it exposed problems with the chimney.

Vigilant is on Ebay now.

I drove 200 miles to Omaha to purchase a new Heartyhstone Mansfield cost for stove out the door with tax $2,600. My cost to get it was four hours and fuel for the truck Diesel is not cheap.

Had to ask for five people to bring it down the basement. Gave four highschool kids $10 a pieec and the coach will get a Free oil change next time that is due on his truck at normal cost of $30.

Ordered a new SS 316ti liner for the new stove$515 delivered.

So now I am at $3,183 for a stove that will operate effeciently so they tell me. I do not have the liner yet(on its way) and there is 7" of snow on the roof and I will be installing the liner myself.

I am hopefull I will get a good price on the Vigilant to offset some cost of the liner but that is an unknown until the fat lady sings in 5 days.

So if you want to run something new it will cost. I hope for long burn times and a firte I can see and clenaer buring.

I have heated my home for the past 6 years with the Vigilant so I figure it bought me this new set up for what i have saved in nat gas bills.

Did I need to go with such an expensive stove? No but it is what I thought would fit us best. Some get by a lot cheaper than this. At least myt set up will be paid for. I would not want to have to charge and pay interest on it.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Wood burning is not all about ROI, even though it helps. If you have the budget, and you want the best, then treat yourself. It saving you money is a bonus.
I burn wood for severl reasons,
1) i sell it
2) i cant imagine living in the rocky mountains and not burn a wood stove
3) Its a fantastic back up heater
4) burning wood and wathcing fire is a joy!

to many more to list... All these points apply to a new or old stove.

I have no clue how old stoves work or dont work. they have been illeagle here for so long that the last one installed new was way before my time.

 

[kevinmoelk]

Thanks for all the posts everyone.

Winston_smith_victory.... HUMMMMM?????? Bold statement from someone with exactly 1 post. I'll leave the thread moving to the moderators.

Mtarbert, your comment is hardly arguable. It's a world economy, like it or not. For the stove, well there are other uses beyond scraping it so I'm not sure what you are getting at here either. And as Elk pointed out, not all iron goes overseas.

AndreB, sure I understand there is a environmental cost in production. The world economy is based upon unsustainable practices... but let's not get into politics. Your argument, while valid is true of just about everything we purchase.

Babalu87, settle down buddy, it's just a question. If you disagree with me fine, but there's no reason to treat me like an idiot, or bait me.

Elk, I thank you for the informative post. Seems each stove needs to be evaluated individually, and not judged inefficient purely by age. I didn't realize that folks would be so touchy on this subject. MSG was right... juicy thread, lol.

-Kevin

 

[jjbaer]

Just wondering why you folks haven't chose to upgrade? Especially considering the good fire sales going on right now.

Don't get me wrong, I love old equipment, wouldn't trade my Internationals for anything, but I also don't drive them everyday.

So what's the deal? Why are you keeping those ancient metal boxes running?

-Kevin

I recommend this opinionated thread be moved to the ash can. It is a subjective thread with little informative information for general users of the Hearth Room. In fact, the thread almost resembles one dominated by trolls. Indeed, a juicy thread.

Hey Winston...who made you moderator...LOL... Are you the same Winston Smith who accused us of being "elitists" because we had "hot water" and others couldn't afford it or was that another Winston Smith?

 

[Corey]

For me it is economics.

First, it seems there was a quote earlier about saving $6-10 a week and having a new stove at the end of the year. If there is an EPA one out there that looks nice and performs well for this 300-500, I have yet to see it...most I looked at were 1500 - 2000 plus the liner on top of that.

So I stuck with the $400 non epa stove. I have made some improvements like adding a secondary air injector/ combustor, redirecting the primary air, and tightening up the stove so that the air flows through these channels instead of leaking into the firebox from various seams. In a hard year I burn 3 cords of wood @ maybe 50-60% efficient...average maybe 55%? Wood for me costs truck gas and my time. So maybe $20 per cord. And a new epa stove runs 67-70% efficient.

So crunch those numbers and say I heat for 10 years:

Old Stove cost: 400
Wood cost: 3 cords/yr x $20 cord x 10 years = $600

Total cost = $1000 per 10 years or $100 per year of old stove heat

Modern EPA Stove cost: $1500
Wood cost: 3 cords/yr x $20 per cord x (70% - 55% efficiency gain = using only 85% of the wood) x 10 years = $510

Total cost = $2010 per 10 years or $201 per year of EPA stove heat.

Basically put, wood cost for me is cheap, and the slight gain of going to an epa stove doesn't offset the cost over a 10 year period and it sure doesn't justify an initial cash outlay of $1500+. If I were paying $250 - $300 per cord of wood, those numbers would come out different.

Corey

 

[Eric Johnson]

I think Cozy (and others) bring up some compelling points. First off, if wood cost/consumption is an issue, then you've got an incentive to upgrade. Likewise, if smoke is a problem in your situation, there's another one. For those of us to whom neither applies, then an upgrade is probably not a big priority. I like having the latest and greatest, but I'm not usually willing to go into debt for that reason alone.

Absent that, I guess the main incentive would be environmental. And while that's the topic for another thread, let's just say all things considered, I think pre-EPA stoves are still far preferable to the fossil-fuel alternatives. Specifically, the negative effects of drilling, mining, transporting, refining--not to mention burning--coal, oil and gas.

I think this was a good thread, wrenchmonster--a good topic for conversation and debate. But I think you could lose that little chip you always seem to have on your shoulder. A guy with a woodstove ought to take a little heat without breaking a sweat. Nobody's judging you.

 

[kevinmoelk]

I think this was a good thread, wrenchmonster--a good topic for conversation and debate. But I think you could lose that little chip you always seem to have on your shoulder. A guy with a woodstove ought to take a little heat without breaking a sweat. Nobody's judging you.

Huh? No chip on my shoulder as far as I can see. My writing style can be a little curt perhaps, but no animosity towards anyone is intended. My sincere apologies to anyone who views my posts as negative.

Been in a foul mood lately. Lots of things breaking around the house, and I have a sore throat that is driving me crazy. Perhaps my mood is coming to the surface too much, sorry folks.

-Kevin

 

[ThomasCNY]

Its hard to change out a good Fisher Stove
1. Front-to-Back Log Loading.
2. Nothing to replace but fire bricks every 20 years or so.
3. Clearances.... I don't have to worry about that. No New Stove is any safer.
4. Cost 200 bucks 10 years ago and it's still worth every penny!
5. Good Wood + Run it Hot = No Problems

I'm looking for a used soapstone only because I want one if I find a nice
old non-epa... I'd buy it... Just move my Fisher down in the basement....

 

[Gooserider]

Economics and priorities... The GF and I want to have a kid, because of our ages, that means "technical assistance", which will run us over 10K to try... We don't have the spare change to spend on a stove, even a Lowes bargan box. We can't use a Lowes box in any case, as our setup is such that we MUST have a short rear exit stove - The Lowes boxes are all top exit as far as I could tell, as are most of the stoves out there. About the only thing that might work for us is one of the VC stoves with the reversible collar. So we are basically stuck on a more expensive stove when / if we can get the bucks together to afford one.

OTOH, I now burn a mix of scrounge, cut off our lot, and purchased log-length that I process myself. It is what I do instead of paying health club dues - so the cost of the wood saved isn't that much. Even the local stove shop agreed that there wasn't a reasonable payback on the wood savings for an upgrade.

Gooserider

 

[webbie]

HA, the 10K is only a down payment, Goose! It will cost about 200K to raise the rug rat to a 20-something.

As to the economics of the top of the line HearthStone, I think it could be said that is like saying a Mercedes S class should have a low per mile total cost.

The other variable is, of course, that by selling a pre-EPA to another party we are certainly causing as much or more pollution than before. That is why all the stove changeout programs actually pay folks to scrap the stoves.

But I am confident that time will take care of all this as long as Bush and friends don't remove the regs...which they are not likely to do since there is no one lobbying (paying) for this to be done.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I installed the Century I picked up for the cabin in the family room in the place of the Cons.Dutchwest Taiwaneese EPA I cat stove. I think the EPA I with cat gph was 5.5. I think the Century rates itself about the same so no gain. There is a smaller fire box so no gain there since I can only get 4 or 5 hours out of it.

I gained some floor space since the CD stove was 3 feet from the walls and I was able to get rid of an adjustible 90 and a couple of inches of pipe. Where the old pipe was nearly horizontal its now vertical.

I think the real benifit of the stove is that the wife no longer feels that the stove is overcomplicated. It's kind of nice to watch the fire also.

I like the new stove. When I finally get it into the cabin I may have to buy another one. If it's not in the budget, I may install the old one again.

The old stove worked fine. It would have continued to work fine for years in the future. I just couldn't pass up the price on the Century.

Matt

 

[mtarbert]

Thanks for all the posts everyone.

Winston_smith_victory.... HUMMMMM?????? Bold statement from someone with exactly 1 post. I’ll leave the thread moving to the moderators.

Mtarbert, your comment is hardly arguable. It’s a world economy, like it or not. For the stove, well there are other uses beyond scraping it so I’m not sure what you are getting at here either. And as Elk pointed out, not all iron goes overseas.
thread, lol.

-Kevin
Kevin,
And just what might be th other uses for an old stove be? Sell it to someone else? Well Hells bells.....that would not the stop pollution they are supposed to be causing.
Mike

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Its hard to change out a good Fisher Stove
1. Front-to-Back Log Loading.
2. Nothing to replace but fire bricks every 20 years or so.
3. Clearances.... I don't have to worry about that. No New Stove is any safer.
4. Cost 200 bucks 10 years ago and it's still worth every penny!
5. Good Wood + Run it Hot = No Problems

I'm looking for a used soapstone only because I want one if I find a nice
old non-epa... I'd buy it... Just move my Fisher down in the basement....

if that fisher ever makes it to the basement it aint coming out i bet , dang things are heavier than most cars
our older models were the same way . a couple even hit the 600 lb mark

 

[kevinmoelk]

Kevin,
And just what might be th other uses for an old stove be? Sell it to someone else? Well Hells bells.....that would not the stop pollution they are supposed to be causing.
Mike

There was a thread here a while back on just what uses an old stove could serve. Some of the comments included boat anchor and scrap iron. Other suggestions included converting the stove to an outdoor patio heater, sauna heater, bbq, or smoker.

As Andre pointed out, destroying the stove for scrap does involve the emobodied energy issue, but things will be destroyed to create new items. At least they are not going into landfills.

I think if the stove still has a useful life, then converting the stove to an alternate use has merit. Many old stoves would be great patio heaters. Using a stove in an alternative manner would reduce it's overall annual use, and hence reduce emmsions. However, it was also pointed out in that same thread that there are regulations surrounding burning fires outdoors, and the option may not be viable for everyone.

-Kevin

 

[ozzie]

Are EPA's worth buying?

I have been told by the local dealerthat people actually return EPA stoves because they cannot get decent heat out of an EPA stove.
Stick with a standard stove, he says.

The problem is supposedly because the temperature in an EPA has to get extremely( uncomfortably) high before any combuster effect occurs.

What say ye , oh wise men of the perpetual woodpile?

 

[ozzie]

Are EPA's worth buying?

I have been told by the local dealerthat people actually return EPA stoves because they cannot get decent heat out of an EPA stove.
Stick with a standard stove, he says.

The problem is supposedly because the temperature in an EPA has to get extremely( uncomfortably) high before any combuster effect occurs.

What say ye , oh wise men of the perpetual woodpile?

 

[BrotherBart]

Are EPA's worth buying?

I have been told by the local dealerthat people actually return EPA stoves because they cannot get decent heat out of an EPA stove.
Stick with a standard stove, he says.

The problem is supposedly because the temperature in an EPA has to get extremely( uncomfortably) high before any combuster effect occurs.

What say ye , oh wise men of the perpetual woodpile?

There is truth in that statement. Of course with the old style stoves you had to get them just as hot or hotter so that you didn't crap up the chimney with creosote. And you did not get as much heat out of your wood because so much of the combustable material went straight up there and either stuck to the inside of your chimney or ended up on your lawn.

Well, you did get the heat back from the creosote during the chimney fires but...

Edit: I'm back I had to go get some wood. Ask that dealer what says that you can't burn a cooler smokey fire in an EPA stove any time you want to. Just like with the older style ones. I see people doing it all the time.

 

[Andre B.]

Are EPA's worth buying?

I have been told by the local dealerthat people actually return EPA stoves because they cannot get decent heat out of an EPA stove.
Stick with a standard stove, he says.

The problem is supposedly because the temperature in an EPA has to get extremely( uncomfortably) high before any combuster effect occurs.

What say ye , oh wise men of the perpetual woodpile?

There is truth in that statement. Of course with the old style stoves you had to get them just as hot or hotter so that you didn't crap up the chimney with creosote. And you did not get as much heat out of your wood because so much of the combustable material went straight up there and either stuck to the inside of your chimney or ended up on your lawn.

Well, you did get the heat back from the creosote during the chimney fires but...

I think a lot of it is just that for many people old habits are hard to change.

I had been feeding my old stove for 12 years or so and before collage I was feeding my dad's furnace. Some difference between the two but not a lot. With both stoves I had been thru times of -30° F lows and could get a fire going quick even if I had been away for a few days and inside temps were down around 35°, I have my place setup so I can easily drain the pluming and leave.

Last fall I decided to get a new stove, EPA was not a requirement but that is what I got anyway, maybe just to see what all the fuss was about.
Was a good thing that temps during the first week were in the 30 to 40 range as it took forever to get a fire going and twice as long to get any real heat out. I was of coarse burning wood that had been cut and sized to burn well the old stove, and using techniques that have been well honed for years.

Now after some time, testing, and changes I can get a fire going in the new just as fast as in the old one. And even thou the new stove is a lot more massive I start getting good hot air from it up stairs even faster then the old. New stove has the double wall back and part way up the sides and the step on the back of the top, all the heats the air more directly. The old stove heated mostly by radiation so the building and stuff around the stove had to heat up before the air really started to heat up.

New stove requires different fire starting and the wood needs to be cut shorter and a larger percentage of it split to smaller sizes, so more time is needed to process the wood but that should be made up for by a more efficient burning and heat capture of the new stove.

Currently playing with cutting the wood 4 to 6 inches long and splitting to 1.5 to 2 sizes. Looks like that may get more air into the pile in the stove at very low damper settings to still get a clean burn, for when outside temps are not cold enough to let the stove do what it does best.

A lot of work making such small pieces but maybe I can build something to automate the process some.

 

[Gooserider]

HA, the 10K is only a down payment, Goose! It will cost about 200K to raise the rug rat to a 20-something.

Oh, I know that, but once the big lump sum is over, we can do the rest a bit at a time... The trouble we are looking at is literally the "startup costs" ;-)

As to the economics of the top of the line HearthStone, I think it could be said that is like saying a Mercedes S class should have a low per mile total cost.

True, but I'm not even talking a Hearthstone (I don't think they'd work - top exits) but a cast iron VC or one of a very small number of other models. The rear exit requirement eliminates about 75% of the market for us, and what's left I would class as "mid to uppper" price range. I think the lowest is the VC Dutchwest models, at around $1500, followed by some of the other cast VC's and the few other reversible collar models - No PE's, no Englanders, and no to several other models.

In addition, as far as I can tell, EVERY EPA II stove I've looked at has a front door, even those with side / top load doors as well. Our smoke dragons are strictly side-loaders, and as such fit nicely within all CTC numbers on the current hearths, but I will have to extend the hearth to meet the front CTC on any replacement EPA stove - this isn't a big deal, but it adds another few hundred $'s to the bill.

I see some people claiming that pre-EPA's aren't safe - I don't buy that as a given. Sure there are unsafe installs, and unsafe Pre-EPA stoves, but Elk can (and does :lol: ) tell us about unsafe EPA II installs, and there were plenty of pre-epa stoves that are as solidly built (or more so) as any new box. I don't see anything in a safely done old install of a reasonable quality pre-epa that is still in good shape that would make it less safe than a properly done EPA install. (assuming both stoves were operated properly, with attention to cleaning and so forth)

This is not like cars or motorcycles where older models can be less safe simply because of improvements in engineering. I wouldn't take an old drum brake "Loop-frame" Guzzi into urban traffic today for love or money. The brakes on that bike were state of the art in it's day, but that day is long past, and by todays standards those brakes are "Fred Flinstone" grade, and not up to the stopping distances of modern traffic... Ditto for suspension, tires, and so forth. OTOH a stove is in essence a box that needs to keep the fire inside, and send the smoke in the right direction. An EPA stove may do more to the smoke, but the technique of building a box to do the basic job hasn't changed, so a pre-EPA does the same job as an EPA of keeping the fire inside and directing the smoke, and does it about the same way and just as well...

The other variable is, of course, that by selling a pre-EPA to another party we are certainly causing as much or more pollution than before. That is why all the stove changeout programs actually pay folks to scrap the stoves.

True, and if I were doing a changeout, I would either scrap the stove or do something interesting in the way of "alternate uses" like making a smoker, etc.

But I am confident that time will take care of all this as long as Bush and friends don't remove the regs...which they are not likely to do since there is no one lobbying (paying) for this to be done.

I agree the regs probably won't go away, and I don't think we would go back to the older style stoves to any great extent if they did. The new stoves ARE better than the old ones in many ways, and if I was setting out to purchase a new stove from scratch, I'd want a modern one, and I think so would nearly everyone wanting a stove. I'm just not sold on the notion that the new stoves are enough better to justify replacing a functioning smoke dragon just for the sake of the things a new stove does better.

It is important to distinguish between "needs" and "wants" - I want to replace the stove, but there are other things that I NEED more.... Absent a big cash windfall we're going to be running the old smoke dragon for a long time to come simply because there are other higher priority expenses in line ahead of it.

Gooserider

 

[BrotherBart]

New stove requires different fire starting and the wood needs to be cut shorter and a larger percentage of it split to smaller sizes, so more time is needed to process the wood but that should be made up for by a more efficient burning and heat capture of the new stove.

I hear ya Andre. This is my first season in 21 years without Old Brownie. Me and that stove understood each other. And since I didn't know in time it was going to have to go I went into winter with seven and a half cords of 22" to 24" wood. Every day it is eat breakfast, cut wood down to size, put wood in the stove and try a different technique. I will be damn glad when it is back to habit again.

 

[pistonslap]

I burn a pre-epa wood furnace. Cost of the furnace I have - free
Cost of the furnace I want - $2700
Cost of my firewood - free
Cost of chainsaw gas - minimal
Spending the day cutting wood with my son - PRICELESS

 

[Roospike]

New stove requires different fire starting and the wood needs to be cut shorter and a larger percentage of it split to smaller sizes, so more time is needed to process the wood but that should be made up for by a more efficient burning and heat capture of the new stove.

I hear ya Andre. This is my first season in 21 years without Old Brownie. Me and that stove understood each other. And since I didn't know in time it was going to have to go I went into winter with seven and a half cords of 22" to 24" wood. Every day it is eat breakfast, cut wood down to size, put wood in the stove and try a different technique. I will be damn glad when it is back to habit again.

How are you cutting dem~dar logs down to size BB ? chainsaw / saw buck or miter saw?

 

[BrotherBart]

New stove requires different fire starting and the wood needs to be cut shorter and a larger percentage of it split to smaller sizes, so more time is needed to process the wood but that should be made up for by a more efficient burning and heat capture of the new stove.

I hear ya Andre. This is my first season in 21 years without Old Brownie. Me and that stove understood each other. And since I didn't know in time it was going to have to go I went into winter with seven and a half cords of 22" to 24" wood. Every day it is eat breakfast, cut wood down to size, put wood in the stove and try a different technique. I will be damn glad when it is back to habit again.

How are you cutting dem~dar logs down to size BB ? chainsaw / saw buck or miter saw?

Electric chainsaw.

 

[Roospike]

New stove requires different fire starting and the wood needs to be cut shorter and a larger percentage of it split to smaller sizes, so more time is needed to process the wood but that should be made up for by a more efficient burning and heat capture of the new stove.

I hear ya Andre. This is my first season in 21 years without Old Brownie. Me and that stove understood each other. And since I didn't know in time it was going to have to go I went into winter with seven and a half cords of 22" to 24" wood. Every day it is eat breakfast, cut wood down to size, put wood in the stove and try a different technique. I will be damn glad when it is back to habit again.

How are you cutting dem~dar logs down to size BB ? chainsaw / saw buck or miter saw?

Electric chainsaw.

I had a friend with the same "log too long" issue , makes for great rumors but not so good for the wood stove , anyway he bought a cheap miter saw for like $40. and cut down all his logs/splits from 22" down to 18" and i tell ya what , it looked to be twice as fast and twice as easy than the chainsaw he started off doing the job with.

Just food for thought.