whats the deal with european inserts?

[ctreitzell]

But there is nothing of the sort in the rules.
While I get that efficiency requirements may effectively rule out certain stoves, I believe that is not necessarily the case for stoves of a larger size - see the US tax credit requirements; same 75% HHV efficiency.
And bigger stoves do meet this.

US EPA requirements are about emissions, just like ecodesign 202x. And this makes perfect sensefor a regulation aimed at cleaning up the air. Firebox size has nothing to do with that in first order.

I suggest the lady might have been ill informed.

Sure, I'll go back there and ask her to elaborate on firebox size...she is the wife of the owner, it is her store...I seriously doubt she's passing on mis-information...but we all need to be humble and allow fact-checking IMO

I'm pretty sure the reload instructions for all EcoDesign2022 woodburning appliances that allow wood logs for fuel are the same: only 2 splits per reload on a bed of coals; those 2 splits not touching each other nor touching the inside of the firebox. Jamming a firebox completely full of fuel is not what the gov't wants the sims doing.

I break that rule plenty.

"making sense" and gov't regulations are not always aligned IME

 

[stoveliker]

Indeed. Testing in the US shows that most pollution is emitted upon opening the stove and reloading. And that makes perfect sense: both actions cool down the firebox.

To me this suggests that filling a lot at once, and then controlling the burn over the timeframe allowed by the stove, is much more beneficial for eco-purposes.

Now this does require a certain air flow design to relight the tightly packed load of wood, and that is where I see that there are some differences with stoves (mfg'd) here.
Smaller European homes may also force to use stoves with lower heat output so that people don't roast out of their homes. Maybe the initial higher burning rate with a new load is too much to allow larger loads in Europe.

Finally, in Europe there are folks who heat primarily with wood (someone above said that it's mostly ambiance and supplemental). My parents heat with wood as their primary source. A wood stove, 1.5 cubic foot (ish). But they do do the frequent small reloading. (They're in their 80s though, so it's not always easy to change ones ways at that stage in life.)

 

[kborndale]

Sure, I'll go back there and ask her to elaborate on firebox size...she is the wife of the owner, it is her store...I seriously doubt she's passing on mis-information...but we all need to be humble and allow fact-checking IMO

In the US, uninformed dealers giving false information is not that uncommon. Maybe it's different by you but here owning a store doesn't necessarily make you an expert.

 

[begreen]

In the US, uninformed dealers giving false information is not that uncommon. Maybe it's different by you but here owning a store doesn't necessarily make you an expert.

I usually find the owner of the store more knowledgeable, but not always. Often the sales associates are much less informed than the owners and better as selling hot tubs than stoves. The woman that was minding the store that I visited recently was full of opinions, and pretty clueless about the Lopis in the store.

 

[European Burner]

In response to the previous comments, I have to say that the initial question was about inserts. I mention this because an insert cannot be compared to a stove, since these are generally more efficient. And if we talk about stoves, there is still a greater advantage in America than in Europe. For example, the Nestor Martin model mentioned above is not cheaper than a similar Pacific Energy model, taking into account that it has to be imported with the additional tests of compliance with the regulations regarding approved emissions. In addition, the PE is a marvel of a device and has a lifetime guarantee.
As for people who heat their homes with wood in Europe, I am referring to my country and it is true that it is more common in villages but it is not the majority of people. And in the rest of the countries in Europe it will not vary much either due to lifestyle and type of housing, especially near cities. And as for the information given by the sellers, I would not trust them completely, because at least in my case here in that sense, from my point of view, there is not much professionalism. If I were dedicated to the distribution and sale of wood inserts and stoves, I would know all the regulations, all the products by heart with their technical data, the type of installation (very important) that each one requires, etc.
Don't talk to a catalytic stove seller here because they think they are gas!
The first thing you have to do is know the space you are going to heat because heating a living room is not the same as heating the whole house, then what type of use you are going to give it, what type of insulation the house has, what type of installation it needs and where you are going to put it (it may not be possible) and most importantly, what budget you have.
I hope my contribution is interesting.

 

[stoveliker]

Your contribution is interesting.

With the caveat that I have only burnt European stoves and not inserts, I note that in the US many inserts are exactly the same as stoves. Basically they are stoves packaged differently.

 

[ctreitzell]

I went looking into EcoDesign2024 today…essentially an 89 page white page…ugh…I didn’t really get anywhere

I watched some vids about EcoDesign2022…which support what @stoveliker says re: emissions…again, I have read several wood burning stove manuals for EcoD2022 and they were as I have written re: reloads.

As far as Pellerot goes…many French businesses are family run for generations. Pellerot doesn’t necessarily feel like that. Sure, I’m happy to double guess the lady at Pellerot…I might try to stop by tomorrow…I should re-iterate; all that Pellerot is a fireplace specialist; all they do is fireplaces; pellet and wood afaiaa…with a focus and wood and offer Tulikivi builds as well…no hot tubs or cans of paint in there!

 

[ctreitzell]

oh snap, my trip Le Mans got cancelled today...so I won't be dropping by Pellerot

 

[Nordicbynature]

Waking up an old thread ...

What European Burner wrote about American and European wood burning culture might be correct.

We live in Sweden and there is many homes that are heated with wood. If we put the boiler people aside, the usual method woud rather be traditional Swedish masonry heaters, which where developed as a remedy to the energy crisis in the mid 18th century. On 27th January 1767 the Swedish government decided for a R&D project for a more efficient wood burning appliance. The task was given to architect Carl Johan Cronstedt and general Fabian Wrede. Their design was so successful, that it became the primary heating method in Sweden for almost 200 years. (Cronstedt-Wrede kakelugn)

Today a home, would typically keep a basic temperature by one or more masonry heaters and the family will fire up a wood burning stove in the afternoon, when coming home from work. For fast heating up to comfort.

Nowadays a Mini-Split will cover a part of the basic heating requirements, as it is environmentally friendly and often very cheap in Sweden to run during shoulder seasons. Above 40 F degrees (5 C) a chainsaw, wood splitter and stove can hardly outcompete a hydroelectric power plant or solar panels and a Mini-Split.

So for Sweden it might be true, that not many people cover 100% of the heating by wood burning. Or not have it as a primary source of heating, but we certainly have a strong wood burning culture.

This culture seems to be different to American culture, because we don't look for a wood burning stove with maximum BTU output.

As I have read, the objective behind ecodesign is mainly particle reduction. In my opinion this process was introduced by the 1979 Geneva convention on long-range transbounding air pollution (LRTAP). From the mid 90s going into effect working on sulfate and particle emissions.

Let's face it: wood burning has an issue with particles. The way you load and run your wood-burning-stoves has an impact on it.

This is imho the reason the European style stoves have been designed for short and hot burns, rather for long burns.

There is a beautiful Norwegian research paper out there. It compares old stoves with new stoves. Some Jøtul models have been in production for many decades. Main difference is particle emission.

Durung winter season, my brother is at home most of the day. He heats his 1.200sqft home entirely with a 7kw (24.000BTU) wood stove manufactured here in Sweden by Contura.

I have dynamic electricity pricing. So I decide based on the hourly price if we run the mini-splits or wood stoves. We have two wood stoves and a pellet stove.

Long story short: we have a strongbwood burning culture in Sweden, although it is a different culture than it is in America.