What is the current thought on solar arrays right now?

[Mr. Kelly]

Hi all…

I have been kicking the tires of a solar array for nearly 10 years, but have never felt confident enough that I knew enough to pull the trigger. How long can I kick tires?

So here’s where my hesitations still come from… I was contacted by SunRun recently… They indicated that solar loans are still being subsidized significantly, and interest rates haven’t skyrocketed with every other rate in the US. Does this ring true?

Is now a good time to be considering a 14/16 panel array for the top of my house?

What should I be considering before I get back into getting new quotes?

Ned was awesome on here last year when I was looking around last. Are you still on here, Ned?

I can never seem to get to the bottom of whether I would be better off with micro inverters or a single basement inverter. Any new developments in that arena? My house does have partial shading in the winter.

SunRun says that solar panels are more efficient these days, and are suggesting somewhere around 450 kW panels are now fairly common. So, they say I may need less panels.

Is SunRun a reputable company that you think is worthy of consideration? They were trying hard to sell me a lease last year. I had no interest in that. They’ve been calling me nonstop for the last few weeks, and I haven’t had much interest in talking to them yet before I get more info.

The more complicated part is the 30% federal tax incentive. That all sounds great, but SunRun says that if I don’t give them that tax money, my monthly loan bill will go up a good chunk, and I’d like to avoid that.

Tell me if you think I am understanding this correctly… I am self-employed, and often have a fairly big tax bill at the end of the year… If I put in for the 30% rebate, isn’t the federal government going to pretty much just take that tax rebate to satisfy my tax debt at the end of the year, rather than giving me 30% out right? Is my understanding of that correct? That means I would have to either pay a good chunk of money to the federal government for taxes, or pay the loan company, a big chunk of money on the spot, or just have an increase of my electric bill, which is making me hesitate a bit.

Anyways… Any discussion of this would be certainly helpful, since it’s been a little while since I’ve done any research on it.

Thanks for anything you have to offer!

 

[begreen]

I don't know about SunRun but I am skeptical about these solar programs. My brother got into a poor one in NC. Due diligence on the details including who owns the panels, who insures and services them and at what cost, what is covered and not covered. Also, the quality of installation is very important, especially if on your roof. Definitely comparison shop.

A starting point for comparison would be to look at the state programs. Then, have a couple of good and reputable solar installers come out and do a site eval and provide bids on the project.

Solar Information & Programs

Learn about how solar energy works and available incentive programs in Massachusetts

www.mass.gov

Here's a bit more info on SunRun

Is Sunrun a Good Deal? - Understand Solar

To answer the question 'Is sunrun a good deal' we do a cost comparison to other solar companies and utilities, plus look at their service reviews.

understandsolar.com

 

[EbS-P]

In MA solar is still probably a good idea. Interest rates are up so that’s a strike against but your power is some of the highest in the nation bonus as I understand your state incentives are still good, but think you could accomplish by investing that money somewhere else for return on profit or in cutting your carbon footprint and other ways. If an electric vehicles in your future short answer is yes, solar is a good idea.

My personal opinion is in states where the incentives aren’t as good or are marginal. The best time has come and gone. I can’t see investing in solar on a large scale for my home are powers too cheap. The incentives are not good enough.

 

[NickW]

I started my solar journey with Sunrun, but they fell off the face of the planet as I did my due diligence and started asking questions... I did put up an array, but went with a local company that was more cooperative and communicative.

 

[peakbagger]

I am not Ned but I will give it a go and will suggest some up front homework. Solar Power your Home for Dummies is several years old but it still a good primer that will get your into "solar speak". The other homework is figure out what incentives are in effect for your utility. I think you are Eversource but there is small muni in that area tied to Boylston. (BTW, I just helped build a small combined heat and power plant near there for a big employer). Some small munis do not like solar and wil lthrow up roadblocks, some love it.

The federal 30% rebate has been extended so that is the minimum incentive. Mass had incredibly good incentives for solar, but they are far less than they were before but still worth independently figuring out what may apply to you. Worst case, start here. https://www.dsireusa.org/

Now some questions, do you want to own the system or are you considering lease or other creative financing?. The big national solar installers usually want to get you to sign up for creative financing as they make more money int he long run. The salesmen make commissions on the deal and are long gone possibly before it gets installed so they are going to explain complex financing in way that makes it sound like they are doing you a favor. It comes down to unless you understand exactly what you are signing, you had better get a lawyer familiar with solar to explain it to you.

Mass is really pushing home batteries and the ability for the utility to "borrow" your battery on occasion. They will effectively pay the extra cost for that battery in just a few years and after that it's a revenue stream. Having a properly designed home battery means you have some quantity of backup power when the grid goes down. Certain equipment suppliers sell integrated system where batteries are "plug and play" others need to customize interfaces.

Now some questions on where to put them. Ideally if you have space on a garage or on the ground you can skip the Rapid Shutdown Requirements (RSD) that are required on the roof of an occupied dwelling. RSD adds cost and complexity. Microinverters do double duty as RSD components but they cost more than a single string inverter. Micros deal better with shading although individual panel optimizers and string inverter can get close micro performance. Optimizers and micro cost more than a string inverter but if you need RSD some of those savings are lost. Both micros and optimizers are installed under the panels in the hottest location possible, they both fail more often than a string inverter. They are major a PITA to swap out up on roof as the panels need to removed to get at them.

Note if you are in "old" area of a city, it is likely that Eversource has been keeping very old infrastrcture running to feed your house and with that comes the chance of power surges. Inverters are very sensitive to line surges and they are going to be getting worse, so insist that any system includes a Surge Protection Device (SPD) on the main panel. They come in various quality. I recommend a Midnight Solar brand SPD. Another BTW if you have an older electrical panel or a 100 AMP main, plan on upgrading your service to 200Amps as a 100 Amp panel has very limited backfeed potential. There is good chance that depending on your income you may get some of this panel upgrade covered with an incentive in 2024.

If its going on a roof, be it occupied or unoccupied, if the roof is not new to the point where you can call up the installer to do the roof attachments, plan on a new roof. I suggest stripping it and covering it top to bottom with ice and water shield before attaching the new roof. If you dont replace the roof, at some point you will have to pay a big premium for the panels and mounts to be moved and reinstalled. This is expensive and reliability can suffer.

The book will get into load planning and system sizing, in most cases you want to match your load and not try to go into the power business. If you see an EV in the future, you should plan to cover that.

As for economics, in Mass the power rates are going to be going up for the indefinite future as the ratepayers are subsidizing lots of energy programs. It comes down to you either pay to put solar on your house or you pay via special fees on your bill to install it on your neighbors.

The big solar companies are in it for volume, they buy components in bulk at discount and can be efficient.

As for who to buy a system from, the national firms do not have great reputations, they are in it for volume and many cut corners or overpromise. Local firms may cost a bit more up front but they may answer the phone in a few years when the data commination interface screws up (sad to say it happens on occasion and in most cases the installer has to visit the house to get it working again. Solar City (Tesla) usually has good prices for their regular solar roof. If you buy outright, they can be good. Forget about their solar roof system, its expensive and they probably will not be making it in few years. Vivent has a bad reputation.

How is that for a start?

 

[Newbie78]

It's not about the panels. It's about the batteries. The panels are relatively cheap. The batteries not.

 

[peakbagger]

BTW, Revision Energy out of Maine has Mass division (it used to be Sun Bug). They are employee owned and have good rep.

 

[bogieb]

I personally would not rent a solar system. From my understanding, if you rent, then they get the government rebate. If you take out a loan, or pay outright, then you get the incentive. I don't know if you are eligible for RECs if you rent versus buy (I'd guess that also goes to sun run). I get a payment of $27 for every mwh I produce (regardless if I use it, or it is pushed to the grid). No, it won't make me rich at around 6mwh produced last year, but it's a little extra bonus every quarter I didn't calculate in during my research. And yes, you have to pay taxes on the REC payments.

The Fed tax incentive comes out of taxes you have paid. IE, if you buy a $15,000 system, then you are eligible to get $4,500 back from taxes you have paid during the year of install. If you don't pay that much in taxes during the year of installation, then I believe you can get the rest back the next year. BUT, I don't know how that works for self employed so it is best to consult your tax preparer (in fact, I am not a tax attorney, so everything I say is suspect and is true only for my situation from my 2022 install).

My state did not have any tax incentives, so I have no experience there. My payback period will be in the teens of years - but that is fine with me.

If you have partial shade, my understanding is that micro-inverters are best. I have MI's and looking at the reports you can definitely see which panels get more shade than other panels (or which panels stay covered by snow the longest). Even a short chimney in the wrong place will severely hamper panels around it (ask me how I know - I dare ya ). It is more expensive than one inverter, but in the long run, I believe it has been worth it for me.

I personally would stay away from national companies and go with a local company that has been in business at least 10 years. Although it might be nice to get a quote, just to see how they compare. I'd also run from anyone that produces a spreadsheet of your supposed power production and savings - they have no clue what the weather will be like. It has been a very cloudy summer and fall here in NH and no spreadsheet will account for that. Heck, even for a fairly sunny and low snow total 2022-2023 winter, my production was no where close to what one company showed on their spreadsheet. If I had gone with them, I would have been severely disappointed.

Only you know your property and how things actually are. I had to advocate strongly for panels to be placed on my WNW facing roof. It is the only side that gets no shade (I have a hip type roof so have panels on three sides). I understood that winter production would not be great on that side, but summer production would be outstanding. In actuality, that side produced reasonably well thru February (better than the east side which has some shade), then April thru September it was the rock star (as I knew it would be).

 

[peakbagger]

Sad to say Mass got rid of SRECs a few years ago, they were beyond overly generous initially and investors jumped in and grabbed the majority of them. NHs market is kept low by the big utility in the state as they effectively call the shots at the PUC so they keep them low. Even though they are not what they should be in NH, it covers my monthly minimum charge to the utility to stay connected to the grid.

 

[gthomas785]

Mass did get rid of the SRECs but they still have unlimited net metering which is a win given the local electricity rates. Definitely try to own if possible. A PPA or lease can be a good way for someone with limited means to save some money on utilities, but you will always get a better return if you can buy them outright.
Also note that while most solar panel calculations are done on a 25 year life time, and it's true the output will be decreased somewhat even before you hit 25 years, you can theoretically continue to use them and generate power longer than that.

I'd also try to get independent financing not from the solar installer. In my opinion, any company offering to finance their own install is going to rip you off somehow even if it's not immediately obvious. I was put off of using a big national company by the stories about delayed installs and impossible to reach customer service. I ended up getting my solar installed by a small local company in Pepperell. They always answered the phone and did a good job on what ended up being a pretty tricky installation.

 

[peakbagger]

There are a lot of "snake oil salesman" out there hustling solar. They make their money on the folks who have not spent the time to get educated on the basics.

 

[peakbagger]

Speaking of the devil https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/solar-sales-bros-threaten-green-210036895.html

 

[gthomas785]

Speaking of the devil https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/solar-sales-bros-threaten-green-210036895.html

Ugh. Yeah, I knew about this phenomenon from the moment I started doing research about solar last year. Every search result online for about the first 3 pages is nothing but sales speak and why you should go with x company. Shouldn't be too surprised, it's like the gold rush with all the potential sales and incentives now. The heck with rules. We have had a few people knock on our door since getting the system installed to ask if we are interested in going solar. I admittedly get a little too much enjoyment from the expression on their faces when I tell them I already have a system. (You can't see it from the street)

 

[bogieb]

Ugh. Yeah, I knew about this phenomenon from the moment I started doing research about solar last year. Every search result online for about the first 3 pages is nothing but sales speak and why you should go with x company. Shouldn't be too surprised, it's like the gold rush with all the potential sales and incentives now. The heck with rules. We have had a few people knock on our door since getting the system installed to ask if we are interested in going solar. I admittedly get a little too much enjoyment from the expression on their faces when I tell them I already have a system. (You can't see it from the street)

I never had anybody knock on my door, but I still have a funny (to me) story. Once I had done my research, picked a company (GSS), gotten the engineering assessment done and the town approved, I still had to wait a couple of months for install (supply chain, labor shortage and everyone wanting solar when the electric doubled in price and the tax credit percentage was increased - made for a perfect storm).

Anyway, I walked into HD one day and there to greet everyone was a solar company (I don't remember which one). When asked if I was interested in solar, I told the guy that mine would be installed soon. When asked what company I went with, I told him. Gotta give him credit, he actually stated that they were a really good company with a great reputation and wished me a good day.

 

[peakbagger]

My guess is he didnt last long

Some smaller firms do not pay commissions to their salesmen. The one firm I am somewhat familiar with is Revision (active in Me NH and some of Mass) are employee owned public benefit corporations.

This is a repeat of the crap that went on when there was big incentives for solar hot water in the 1980s. Firms opened up and were making crap panels and then sold them with high pressure sales tactics. I remember after the incentives were cut off the most firms when out of business and a lot of the systems were orphaned. In most cases the differential controllers died and they stopped working and no one was in business to fix them. The other far worse issue was a check valve sticking. The systems are designed to pump hot water to a heat exchanger with the hot water system. During the night the check valve stopped the system from running backwards by thermosysphoning hot water from the tank to the roof where it was radiated out into the sky. If it was below freezing the working fluid in the solar loop was antifreeze so it would keep moving but it would freeze the hot water side of the systme and blow the ends off the heat exchangers and then would flood the basement. Lots of systems got ripped out becase of that flaw.

The actual solar electric panels are commodities, but the inverters be it string or microinverters are wear items that can and do break down and most likely will eventually need to be replaced. The big firms are somewhat famous for really bad post installation service. Best stick with local firm that has a better chance of being around for awhile.

 

[Solarguy3500]

Ned here. Full disclosure: I work for a solar installer in sales and system design.

Many good points brought up in this thread already. I will try to address the OPs questions here as best I can.

First, solar loans. There are a few types of loans for solar.

1. Regular loans that are at the going interest rate. The rates have gone up just like every other type of financing and are currently around 7% - 8%. However there are no hidden dealer fees added into the project cost. Many of these loans use a mechanism for keeping the payments lower by essentially breaking it into 2 loans. A short term loan (12-18 months) for the amount of the expected tax credit, and then a long term loan (anywhere from 5-20 years) for the remaining 70%. This is why you have to give the lender the tax credit money when you get it to pay off the balloon payment on the short term loan.

2. Low interest loans with dealer fees. These are the type of loans that Sunrun was almost certainly referring to. The statement by Sunrun that solar loan rates haven't gone up like other types of loans is misleading. The way they keep the interest rate low is by charging a dealer fee which can be as high as 25% of the project cost. It's sort of like buying points on a mortgage to reduce the interest rate. There is no such thing as a free lunch. They are often reluctant to tell you about this because it can lead to uncomfortable conversations with customers, and I think it's illegal to offer a customer a different price for cash or financing. In other words, if the company offered you a price using a loan with a dealer fee, and you asked them for a price if you paid cash and they told you a lower price, that is not allowed. But then they are in a tough situation because if they tell you the same price if you pay cash, you are going to get overcharged because they are still charging you the dealer fee but they don't have to pay it to the lender if you're paying cash.

30% federal tax credit. Here's my little disclaimer: I am not a tax professional and cannot give tax advice. I can tell you my understanding of how the credit works, but you should talk to a tax professional to see how it would work for your particular tax situation. It is a direct credit in the sense that it simply reduces the amount you owe in federal income tax by 30% of the project cost. For many people who have taxes taken out of their paycheck every pay period this means that they end up getting a big refund back when they file their taxes for the year in which the project was installed and received utility approval to operate. If your tax situation is different and you won't be able to recoup the full 30% as a refund and you use one of the loan products that loans you the tax credit amount as a short term loan, you will have to come up with that amount some other way or your payments will increase significantly on the long term loan because they will have to roll that extra amount into it.

Microinverters vs string inverters. The company I work for uses both. The string inverters with optimizers have seen an increase in the failure rate over the last few years and if the inverter fails the whole system is down until the inverter can be replaced. Microinverters don't have a single point of failure in the sense that if one fails, the rest of the panels keep working at their full potential. A system with microinverters will cost a bit more than one with a string inverter, so that will factor into your decision making process.

 

[Solarguy3500]

I am not Ned but I will give it a go and will suggest some up front homework. Solar Power your Home for Dummies is several years old but it still a good primer that will get your into "solar speak". The other homework is figure out what incentives are in effect for your utility. I think you are Eversource but there is small muni in that area tied to Boylston. (BTW, I just helped build a small combined heat and power plant near there for a big employer). Some small munis do not like solar and wil lthrow up roadblocks, some love it.

The federal 30% rebate has been extended so that is the minimum incentive. Mass had incredibly good incentives for solar, but they are far less than they were before but still worth independently figuring out what may apply to you. Worst case, start here. https://www.dsireusa.org/

Now some questions, do you want to own the system or are you considering lease or other creative financing?. The big national solar installers usually want to get you to sign up for creative financing as they make more money int he long run. The salesmen make commissions on the deal and are long gone possibly before it gets installed so they are going to explain complex financing in way that makes it sound like they are doing you a favor. It comes down to unless you understand exactly what you are signing, you had better get a lawyer familiar with solar to explain it to you.

Mass is really pushing home batteries and the ability for the utility to "borrow" your battery on occasion. They will effectively pay the extra cost for that battery in just a few years and after that it's a revenue stream. Having a properly designed home battery means you have some quantity of backup power when the grid goes down. Certain equipment suppliers sell integrated system where batteries are "plug and play" others need to customize interfaces.

Now some questions on where to put them. Ideally if you have space on a garage or on the ground you can skip the Rapid Shutdown Requirements (RSD) that are required on the roof of an occupied dwelling. RSD adds cost and complexity. Microinverters do double duty as RSD components but they cost more than a single string inverter. Micros deal better with shading although individual panel optimizers and string inverter can get close micro performance. Optimizers and micro cost more than a string inverter but if you need RSD some of those savings are lost. Both micros and optimizers are installed under the panels in the hottest location possible, they both fail more often than a string inverter. They are major a PITA to swap out up on roof as the panels need to removed to get at them.

Note if you are in "old" area of a city, it is likely that Eversource has been keeping very old infrastrcture running to feed your house and with that comes the chance of power surges. Inverters are very sensitive to line surges and they are going to be getting worse, so insist that any system includes a Surge Protection Device (SPD) on the main panel. They come in various quality. I recommend a Midnight Solar brand SPD. Another BTW if you have an older electrical panel or a 100 AMP main, plan on upgrading your service to 200Amps as a 100 Amp panel has very limited backfeed potential. There is good chance that depending on your income you may get some of this panel upgrade covered with an incentive in 2024.

If its going on a roof, be it occupied or unoccupied, if the roof is not new to the point where you can call up the installer to do the roof attachments, plan on a new roof. I suggest stripping it and covering it top to bottom with ice and water shield before attaching the new roof. If you dont replace the roof, at some point you will have to pay a big premium for the panels and mounts to be moved and reinstalled. This is expensive and reliability can suffer.

The book will get into load planning and system sizing, in most cases you want to match your load and not try to go into the power business. If you see an EV in the future, you should plan to cover that.

As for economics, in Mass the power rates are going to be going up for the indefinite future as the ratepayers are subsidizing lots of energy programs. It comes down to you either pay to put solar on your house or you pay via special fees on your bill to install it on your neighbors.

The big solar companies are in it for volume, they buy components in bulk at discount and can be efficient.

As for who to buy a system from, the national firms do not have great reputations, they are in it for volume and many cut corners or overpromise. Local firms may cost a bit more up front but they may answer the phone in a few years when the data commination interface screws up (sad to say it happens on occasion and in most cases the installer has to visit the house to get it working again. Solar City (Tesla) usually has good prices for their regular solar roof. If you buy outright, they can be good. Forget about their solar roof system, its expensive and they probably will not be making it in few years. Vivent has a bad reputation.

How is that for a start?

A lot of really good info in this post by @peakbagger

One thing I will add is that batteries are not quite as attractive in MA anymore because of some new rules that require a full containment room to be built around them and they are prohibited from being installed in any floor of a house that has bedrooms. This essentially means that they can only be installed in garages or unfinished basements that have a lot of extra room for the enclosure, which has to be constructed of 5/8" thick type X gypsum board with a fire rated door and hardwired smoke detector. All of this means added cost to build the room as well. Batteries shouldn't really be considered an investment but rather a convenience item for backup power during power outages. The reality is that they likely will not have paid themselves back in the 10 years that most batteries are warranties for, even factoring in all the incentives (tax credit, Connected Solutions). The numbers that are shown on the website for Connected Solutions are overly optimistic as they assume a best case scenario incentive payment around $1,200 per battery per year. In reality, it is probably more like $500-$600 per battery per year because it is based on your average kW contribution over the whole summer season (~60 peak demand events) and for many reasons you will almost never have a perfect contribution average. Also, some battery manufacturers take a cut of the revenue, some as high as 20% and those numbers on the CS website don't factor that in either.

 

[Solarguy3500]

BTW, Revision Energy out of Maine has Mass division (it used to be Sun Bug). They are employee owned and have good rep.

As of the first week of this month, I am now a Revision Energy employee. I worked for Sunbug for the last 6+ years, and as you pointed out they were just acquired by Revision. Both companies are values driven Certified B Corps with great reputations so the merger was a natural fit for both. Since Sunbug had offices in both Eastern and Western MA Revision now serves all of MA as well as Maine and parts of NH.

In general, if someone is looking for a reputable solar installer, check out the Amicus Solar Cooperative. It is a group of some of the best and most reputable installers across the country, so you should be able to find a member company near you. Both Sunbug Solar and Revision Energy are members of Amicus.

 

[bogieb]

When I was getting quotes, I had one company that threw so many roadblocks at me via email, that I gave up on them (they obviously didn't want to come out and look - and they were one of my top 2 picks). They went by old Google photos for one. I explained the changed situation to them, but they still said I had too much shade (even with the west side clear of shade at all). Then they said they estimated they could only fit 2 panels on my south side (it holds 6 currently) and said my whole roof would only hold 13 (it holds 20 right now and has expansion potential). The company I went with, who actually came out and looked figured they could get around 37 - 400w panels on my roof if I wanted to completely load up for around 253% of my usage.

A lot of really good info in this post by @peakbagger

One thing I will add is that batteries are not quite as attractive in MA anymore because of some new rules that require a full containment room to be built around them and they are prohibited from being installed in any floor of a house that has bedrooms. This essentially means that they can only be installed in garages or unfinished basements that have a lot of extra room for the enclosure, which has to be constructed of 5/8" thick type X gypsum board with a fire rated door and hardwired smoke detector. All of this means added cost to build the room as well. Batteries shouldn't really be considered an investment but rather a convenience item for backup power during power outages. The reality is that they likely will not have paid themselves back in the 10 years that most batteries are warranties for, even factoring in all the incentives (tax credit, Connected Solutions). The numbers that are shown on the website for Connected Solutions are overly optimistic as they assume a best case scenario incentive payment around $1,200 per battery per year. In reality, it is probably more like $500-$600 per battery per year because it is based on your average kW contribution over the whole summer season (~60 peak demand events) and for many reasons you will almost never have a perfect contribution average. Also, some battery manufacturers take a cut of the revenue, some as high as 20% and those numbers on the CS website don't factor that in either.

Yeah, a battery backup system would have cost more than my entire array install because of all the requirements. Although it would have been great to get BBU, I had to pass on it.

 

[peakbagger]

As of the first week of this month, I am now a Revision Energy employee. I worked for Sunbug for the last 6+ years, and as you pointed out they were just acquired by Revision. Both companies are values driven Certified B Corps with great reputations so the merger was a natural fit for both. Since Sunbug had offices in both Eastern and Western MA Revision now serves all of MA as well as Maine and parts of NH.

In general, if someone is looking for a reputable solar installer, check out the Amicus Solar Cooperative. It is a group of some of the best and most reputable installers across the country, so you should be able to find a member company near you. Both Sunbug Solar and Revision Energy are members of Amicus.

Definitely a thumbs up for Solarguy. Good to see that legit firms have banded together, I just wonder how if they can be seen under all the hard pitch solar.

Interesting about the new battery containment rules in Mass, IMHO required with Lithium Ion, less required with other chemistries but when I see some of the sketchy spots and installs that DIY folks are using it makes my skin crawl for the owner or for some volunteer or professional fireman that may encounter them. The Boston Fire Department reportedly heard of a Lithium Ion battery being installed on one of the big hospitals without the proper permitting, they called up the hospital and told them to evacuate the complex until the battery was removed. Not sure of the resolution but I think there was compromise. They really do not like batteries in their city.

A BTW for other readers, panel level optimizers (installed under each panel on the hot roof0 do not need to be installed on string inverters as long as the array has no shading and its not on and occupied structure. It saves some cost and improves reliability as the string inverter become the only electronics in the system. They come with 10 year warranty, some live longer especially if protected by a good surge suppressor, many inverter companies sell an extended warranty for 20 years. My inverters are now over 10 year old but I have spare in case they die.

 

[Caw]

I'm not an expert but can share my story:

We purchased our array back in 2021 from a small mom and pop local installer. I couldn't have been more happy with the process. They owner did the estimate, contract, and was on site for the install. They were always available for questions. No bs just the facts and a fair price. I'm a little biased because I run a small business but I'd recommend going with a smaller company whenever possible even if it's a little more expensive. Support local business and avoid a lot of hassle.

We have a 11.8 kw system on both sides of our roof. The house faces south and is a shallow gambrel so the back still does quite well. We purchased it and at the time the credit was only 26% using a private solar loan. Rate is 5.0% so given today's interest rates it's a valuable loan. Our SMRT is super low like $0.033 and I think that's been gone a while now. We take huge advantage of the unlimited net metering in the summer. House stays at 75 to keep the humidity out and we rack up the kWh. Our house is 100% electric plus the wood stove and we only pay a bill December thru March. Given electricity is around $0.26/kWh we're saving quite a bit (MA electricity is 3rd highest in the nation last I looked). The people before us heated solely with a heat pump and resistance idk how they did it without a stove.

I think you want to own the system. I wouldn't have done it if we had to lease. I want to be in control of the system. We're on track to have it pay itself off by year 6 of ownership and the rest is gravy. I don't find it offensive looking either, they are sharp panels. I'll attach a picture.

Regarding batteries we opted against them. The installer was very much against them at the time and we agreed. Given the 0 to 48 hours a year I'm without power I'm fine using my 7500w wheel out generator to keep my fridges going. I have a 2 hour APC on my stove fan to buy time to decide to wheel it out. It cost $500 versus $10k and space lost in my basement for batteries. I'm not here to help the power company.

Take a look at the math. It's not super complicated to see if there is any benefit for your household. The key as everyone has stated is finding an installer you trust and again is recommended going local if possible. Us being 100% electric is makes a lot of sense. Folks with NG or propane it may not be as great. I also enjoy just the thought of using less fossil fuels even though it's a drop in the bucket.

Id recommend the company we used but they've since grown and don't do much small residential work anymore. Good luck!

 

[bogieb]

I'm not an expert but can share my story:

We purchased our array back in 2021 from a small mom and pop local installer. I couldn't have been more happy with the process. They owner did the estimate, contract, and was on site for the install. They were always available for questions. No bs just the facts and a fair price. I'm a little biased because I run a small business but I'd recommend going with a smaller company whenever possible even if it's a little more expensive. Support local business and avoid a lot of hassle.

We have a 11.8 kw system on both sides of our roof. The house faces south and is a shallow gambrel so the back still does quite well. We purchased it and at the time the credit was only 26% using a private solar loan. Rate is 5.0% so given today's interest rates it's a valuable loan. Our SMRT is super low like $0.033 and I think that's been gone a while now. We take huge advantage of the unlimited net metering in the summer. House stays at 75 to keep the humidity out and we rack up the kWh. Our house is 100% electric plus the wood stove and we only pay a bill December thru March. Given electricity is around $0.26/kWh we're saving quite a bit (MA electricity is 3rd highest in the nation last I looked). The people before us heated solely with a heat pump and resistance idk how they did it without a stove.

I think you want to own the system. I wouldn't have done it if we had to lease. I want to be in control of the system. We're on track to have it pay itself off by year 6 of ownership and the rest is gravy. I don't find it offensive looking either, they are sharp panels. I'll attach a picture.

Regarding batteries we opted against them. The installer was very much against them at the time and we agreed. Given the 0 to 48 hours a year I'm without power I'm fine using my 7500w wheel out generator to keep my fridges going. I have a 2 hour APC on my stove fan to buy time to decide to wheel it out. It cost $500 versus $10k and space lost in my basement for batteries. I'm not here to help the power company.

Take a look at the math. It's not super complicated to see if there is any benefit for your household. The key as everyone has stated is finding an installer you trust and again is recommended going local if possible. Us being 100% electric is makes a lot of sense. Folks with NG or propane it may not be as great. I also enjoy just the thought of using less fossil fuels even though it's a drop in the bucket.

Id recommend the company we used but they've since grown and don't do much small residential work anymore. Good luck!

The second half of your post brings to mind that a lot of people are only willing to go solar if the ROI is 4-8 years, which is fine. But, it also depends on the individual goals and circumstances. In my case, the ROI will be in the teens of years because I don't use that much electricity as well as shading issues on two sides. If no shade, I could have saved 5 panels worth of costs (including install, microinverters etc) , which actually = 4-5 years worth of electricity costs. Of course, all that depends on cost of electricity, which is ever volatile around here.

I was okay with a long term ROI, because:

• It protects me from that electric rate volatility - which is really important as I near retirement
• I plan on being in this house until forced out by circumstances (20-25 years unless something untoward happens). So having no/reduced electric bills for that time is very attractive
• It helps the aging electric grid somewhat - because goodness knows, the infrastructure/production capabilities is not being expanded to adjust for our growing population and the growing demand of all electric appliances such as mini splits and cars (to name a few).
• I've wanted to do solar or wind power for at least 2 decades, and this was my chance (I no longer live on a ridge, so wind was out)
• I was saving for another project that I got priced out of during the pandemic (prices doubled) and I had the money on hand to be able to fulfill the first 4 points.
• And honestly, the Return over the last year has been better than some of my investments - I've at least generated enough not to have a bill since March (it was $13), but also generated $700 in credit). And with that credit, I am using the mini split to heat this fall (I'm usually 100% pellet stoves) while reducing my wood pellet usage - which prices are very high this year.
• NH currently has fairly attractive net metering for their largest utility (not all states, or even smaller utilities do) and I'm grandfathered until sometime in the 2040's.

 

[Caw]

I forgot the picture I mentioned. Here's how my panels look:

 

[DBoon]

Regarding the ROI, I also think like bogieb and most of his points apply to my situation (I won't repeat them).

I installed my first 5 kW array nearly 10 years ago to provide electricity for a heat pump I installed in a house in Central NY that I was renovating over a many year period. That little heat pump nearly eliminated oil furnace usage - a good thing given that the oil furnace wasn't going to stay after the renovation and it was already well past its 20 year life. To anyone who thinks that heat pumps don't work in a Zone 4 climate, I can tell you that they absolutely do.

I installed another 10 kW array about 5 years ago when I decided on a full-electric house and battery electric vehicle (BEV). I jumped the gun a bit on the extra 10 kW array, but I had the cash at the time and am glad I didn't try to add it just before I moved in because the pandemic supply shortages would have made that impossible. I was able to still use it to charge my BEV as I was only living a mile away at the time - inconvenient, but not impossible, and no additional cost of electricity.

My overall payback period (given kWh rates at the time) was probably 16 years for both systems with electricity in my area averaging about 12 cents/kWh (all in) since forever. But fast-forward to the natural gas supply crunch a few years back with prices during summer and heating season doubling and it showed its worth in protection against price spikes. I'm guessing I'd have about an overall 12 year payback period. I consider this quite acceptable for the other benefits it provides, aside from direct cost savings.

My system overproduces by about 4 MWh/year compared to what I need, but that offsets car charging far from home (when I travel) and provides an offset to what I would have to pay as a monthly charge. It gives me a little cushion should I decide I don't want to use my woodstove in Dec/Jan/Feb, allows for some additional BEV charging, or gives some slack for panel degradation (I have noticed no degradation yet). The rate paid for my excess production doubled the last year so I have a pretty good payment credit in the utility bank now and shouldn't have to write a check for some time.

NY state provides yearly net metering for my system for about another 20 years (last I checked) and this certainly helps. I've been entering the heating season with about 5 MWh of excess production, and I'll work that down through December or January (cloudy and cold here until early-mid January most years) and then it starts adding back to give me a comfortable surplus by early spring.

 

[bogieb]

Regarding the ROI, I also think like bogieb and most of his points apply to my situation (I won't repeat them).

I installed my first 5 kW array nearly 10 years ago to provide electricity for a heat pump I installed in a house in Central NY that I was renovating over a many year period. That little heat pump nearly eliminated oil furnace usage - a good thing given that the oil furnace wasn't going to stay after the renovation and it was already well past its 20 year life. To anyone who thinks that heat pumps don't work in a Zone 4 climate, I can tell you that they absolutely do.

I installed another 10 kW array about 5 years ago when I decided on a full-electric house and battery electric vehicle (BEV). I jumped the gun a bit on the extra 10 kW array, but I had the cash at the time and am glad I didn't try to add it just before I moved in because the pandemic supply shortages would have made that impossible. I was able to still use it to charge my BEV as I was only living a mile away at the time - inconvenient, but not impossible, and no additional cost of electricity.

My overall payback period (given kWh rates at the time) was probably 16 years for both systems with electricity in my area averaging about 12 cents/kWh (all in) since forever. But fast-forward to the natural gas supply crunch a few years back with prices during summer and heating season doubling and it showed its worth in protection against price spikes. I'm guessing I'd have about an overall 12 year payback period. I consider this quite acceptable for the other benefits it provides, aside from direct cost savings.

My system overproduces by about 4 MWh/year compared to what I need, but that offsets car charging far from home (when I travel) and provides an offset to what I would have to pay as a monthly charge. It gives me a little cushion should I decide I don't want to use my woodstove in Dec/Jan/Feb, allows for some additional BEV charging, or gives some slack for panel degradation (I have noticed no degradation yet). The rate paid for my excess production doubled the last year so I have a pretty good payment credit in the utility bank now and shouldn't have to write a check for some time.

NY state provides yearly net metering for my system for about another 20 years (last I checked) and this certainly helps. I've been entering the heating season with about 5 MWh of excess production, and I'll work that down through December or January (cloudy and cold here until early-mid January most years) and then it starts adding back to give me a comfortable surplus by early spring.

"her points" (almost everyone makes that mistake, especially when my motorcycle was my avatar). I don't take offense and it really doesn't matter to me, I just delight in pointing it out