what do you think this guys problem is (cat stove owners, and basement stove users look here)?

[BrotherBart]

OK, I'll chime in here. My stove is in a finished basement. I have 3 thermometers on my cat stove. When I have a full load and the stove is chugging along my temps are as follows.

Cat probe- 1000
Stove top- 550-600
Stove pipe- 275-300 (magnetic thermometer)

Like BB said if your stove pipe thermometer was a probe type it would be much higher. It seems to me it's running the way it is sapose to, and doesn't put the heat out because the surrounding concrete is sucking up all the heat. If you fininsh off your basement you would probably get blasted out.

And I think if you disconnected the outside air from your stove, and just leave it by itself with maybe a flapper valve or something on the end it would help balance the pressure in your basement and act as a fresh air ventilator.

Agreed. My place down here is unfinished and the F3 has to crank its butt off for a few hours to bring the place up to a consistent temp. Luckily I don't have any drafts and I placed the stove so that the glass faces my desk. Radiant gets my old bod up to temp while the stove works on the rest of the room.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

BB is correct on the flue temps , reading outside surface temps will not give you an accurate reading of the actual flue temps. i have a 24-ac catalytic woodstove. just from pure curiosity several years ago i took an additional condar probe cat thermometer and inserted it into the single wall pipe about 14 inches above the stove collar. the readings on the one in my stove, and the one in the pipe were virtually identical. a surface thermometer didnt get above 325 when the probe was showing 800. have you checked into the flue liner to see if you are getting buildup inside from running the unit? or has it not been installed long enough to get a feel for how clean the unit is burning? how completely is the wood burning? does the unit burn moderately better (more actively) with the catalyst is not engaged? if the cat is getting up to 1,000 degrees then it is likely not clogged , sounds like it (the cat) is functioning normally. how does the smoke look coming out of the top of the flue, should be whitish and dissipate quickly. if you wish to post answers to these questions im sure that these answers will help myself and others in the forum to determine how the unit is behaving, or if you wish , give me a call at my office and i'll discuss it with you. my number is 800-245-6489 my ext is 131, or just ask for mike. i may be able to help you figure this thing out. ive got a pretty good handle on how these englander cat stoves work as i have run one myself for several years and have built them for even longer.

mike esw

 

[secondofangle]

You guys rock. thanks for all the help. I only wish I had known about this forum before I drilled holes in my stove....
Anyway, regarding drafts and temperatures, here are some tests/things I did:

1.) Disconnect outside air supply - tons of cold air rushing out the inside end of the supply, and the air intake on the stove will suck a paper to it, but without much force. The air supply from outside will blow a match out.
2.) Open the pipe under teh single wall pipe on the chimney that allows access for ash cleaning (usually it's caulked and sealed tight): TONS of draft up the chimney - a match doesn't stand a chance in that draft. No back-puffing of smoke whatsoever.
3.) drill small hole in single-wall pipe adn insert cat probe thermometer: when the magnetic thermometer is reading about 200, it's 400+ in the pipe. When the magmetic one is reading 350, it's 600 in the pipe. WHen the catalytic converter is 1000, it's about 900 in the pipe. This confirms what BrotherBart said. Only wish I knew this before. The magnet will have you believe you're forming creosote, when you're hundreds of degrees hotter inside.
4.) Tapped out the holes I drilled last night and filled them with allen set screws, so I'm back to stock now. It doesn't make sense if the outside air supply is providing so much combustion air to open the air intake to the basement which has negative pressure - that will tend to make the outside air supply that's connected to the stove bypass the stove and pay the air debt (negative) in the basement. I wish I had thought this through better adn asked you guys before I got excited with my damned drill.

So, the bottom line seems to be don't trust a magnetic thermometer (unless it says you're too hot).

By the way, what is a "Summit"? I looked at that one guy's pictures. pretty cool. What stove do you guys recommend if I do ever replace teh Englander?

Again, thank all you guys for your kind help.

Scott

 

[stoveguy2esw]

well i'd recommend replacing it with another englander (he he) im biased though. by the way , please do feel free to contact me if you still have q's about that 24-icd

mike esw

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

This place does rock!! these guys are good. Glad you came to see us.
The air rushing in the outside air kit hole is a sure sign of negative pressure. Air will come in the place of least resistance, and a hole in the wall is less then the chimney. now, temp plug that hole in the wall and do the chimney test again, you might find that the chimney becomes the path of least resistance. The problem when the stove is hooked up to both is that there is no more atmosheric pressure pulling air through the outside air kit hole. The stove is having to pull down the kit and up the stack. Please report what you find when you temp close the hole in the wall and do the chimney test.
Im glad you got your stove back to stock, and actually with the temps your reporting you might have a chance on getting this thing online. keep us informed.
garden web doesnt hold a candle to this place when it comes to wood burning trouble shooting.

 

[Hogwildz]

You guys rock. thanks for all the help. I only wish I had known about this forum before I drilled holes in my stove....
Anyway, regarding drafts and temperatures, here are some tests/things I did:

1.) Disconnect outside air supply - tons of cold air rushing out the inside end of the supply, and the air intake on the stove will suck a paper to it, but without much force. The air supply from outside will blow a match out.
2.) Open the pipe under teh single wall pipe on the chimney that allows access for ash cleaning (usually it's caulked and sealed tight): TONS of draft up the chimney - a match doesn't stand a chance in that draft. No back-puffing of smoke whatsoever.
3.) drill small hole in single-wall pipe adn insert cat probe thermometer: when the magnetic thermometer is reading about 200, it's 400+ in the pipe. When the magmetic one is reading 350, it's 600 in the pipe. WHen the catalytic converter is 1000, it's about 900 in the pipe. This confirms what BrotherBart said. Only wish I knew this before. The magnet will have you believe you're forming creosote, when you're hundreds of degrees hotter inside.
4.) Tapped out the holes I drilled last night and filled them with allen set screws, so I'm back to stock now. It doesn't make sense if the outside air supply is providing so much combustion air to open the air intake to the basement which has negative pressure - that will tend to make the outside air supply that's connected to the stove bypass the stove and pay the air debt (negative) in the basement. I wish I had thought this through better adn asked you guys before I got excited with my damned drill.

So, the bottom line seems to be don't trust a magnetic thermometer (unless it says you're too hot).

By the way, what is a "Summit"? I looked at that one guy's pictures. pretty cool. What stove do you guys recommend if I do ever replace teh Englander?

Again, thank all you guys for your kind help.

Scott

A summit is a model from another manufacturer. Your stove is fine. BB can atest to that. He has the jumbo Englander.
Matter of fact, when I finally get my addition complete, I am going to install a mid size Englander in that area.
Before worrying about replacing what you have already. Why not spend that cash to finish some of that basement, so you can enjoy more heat from your stove you have. Concrete or stone will suck up alot of heat. Insulate & finish those walls and see what kind of heat that Englander can throw around down there before rushing to buy another stove. No matter what you put doen there is going to have alot of heat its producing snatched from that concrete. Kinda defeating the purpose.
These guys are good and know thier s--t, take advantage of what they have to offer and you will be able to enjoy your wood heat so much more, and probably more efficiently.
Good luck.

 

[secondofangle]

Thanks, Mike. It's impressive that you took the time to try to help a guy with one of your stoves. That means a lot to me.

So from now on, I guess I should just pay attention to the probe thermometer at the converter. What temperatures should satisfy me? And is it of concern if they dip below the recommended range at teh end of a burn cycle when it's just coals? Or does it just have to be hot during the "pre-coals" phases of the burn cycle?

I just want my stove to run properly. I've only been doing this for about a year, but I find it addictive.

(TO answer Hogwildz question/comment about teh basement - my house is smallish, and teh basement gets into the 80s with the Enlander running. That passively heats the first floor into the 60s with the basement door open and one floor register in teh front room. So for now, in my first house with my first stove (and I'm single), I'm satisfied with the arrangement. But if I ever move or build my own house, it's going to be designed around the wood stove!)

Scott

 

[GVA]

Yeah.... Garden Who??????
Kudos MSG on luring him over to.............. "THE HEARTH SIDE" (said in a deep james earl jones type of voice).
You guys helped him out in less than 12 hours total what he had been posting about for a year on the other site.
You all ROCK

 

[BrotherBart]

If you have a wood stove that is heating an unfinished basement into the 80's in under a half a day of burning while losing heat up through that door to the rest of the house, keep that stove for life!

 

[stoveguy2esw]

hey no problem , its what i do. i play around in here and other forums for funsies, off the clock for the most part, i usually try to help out when i can even if it isnt one of my stoves, but i usually peg englander questions as soon as i see them. as for the rest of the regulars in here, you will not find a more knowledgable collection of pro's in one place at any time. ive learned quite a lot just from reading what they have to say. a lot of these guys are the "front line" guys, dealers , installers and inspectors. they have "real world" knowledge and experience and are also stand up folks who help simply because they were asked a question. it doesnt get any better than that.


mike esw

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

If you have a wood stove that is heating an unfinished basement into the 80's in under a half a day of burning while losing heat up through that door to the rest of the house, keep that stove for life!

yea! what the hey?? sounds fine to me. What was broken about it?

 

[secondofangle]

well, I know, it seems naive now! That Englander cooks it. There's no problem with the heat output in the basement, never has been, the problem was with the single wall pipe temperature and the condensation at the top of the SS liner dripping from the rain cap and down the masonry.

I was absolutely OBSESSED with that magnetic thermometer that was constantly screaming "Creosote" at me while running in the 200-280 range! It was like a poltergeist! I couldn't ignore it. And too low of operating temperature seemed to be consistent with the condensation issue....and I'm stil lnot sure what that's about....I think the cap just gets cold and the moisture from the smoke condenses on it and drips. I'm thinking of taking it off....BUT WAIT. Nix that. I'll hang around here a bit to make sure that's good idea before I go and screw something up again....

Scott

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

ahhh good. I just assumed you wernt getting any heat. that will teach me to assume. LOL.

 

[tatankas]

Hi, I too found a completly unused englander 24 ICD cat monster, never used a cat stove b/f. So after getting this 570 lb monster into my 200 yr old giant fire place, hooked up to existing 6 " steel flu from my previous 13 NC englander, I am experimenting. I am a stove fanatic, this is new territory, I researched this stove extensively b/f buying it for peanuts. Made 1997, used 10 fires, sat until now with minor surface rust. Although cat looks fine and soo easy to get at since all new and no rust, I am sure a cat after 13 yrs must be old in some way, waiting for new one but couldnt resisit firing anyway. Swithed collar from back to top, gasket still looked good, now top vent into my 2 story chimney liner inside old chimney.
Started fire, 30 minutes later added wood, 15 minutes later great fire, good coals, cloesde door, kept draft fully opened to get it really cookin, then engaged cat. Some smokey smell when blower engaged, found that when opening door, it has to stay cracked 15 minutes to fully open or smoke comes out ( cat disengaged of course) . Burned hot, turned my seasoned 3 yr wood into coal? logs intact but completly burned ( wierd), no braekdown. Loaded stove last load 12 AM, tons of coals this morning 9 Am, instant fire again. I need to know more about temp gages, cat and reg, never had to use any with such draft. Had allnighters, fishers, pillsbury, englanders, all in this place, all burned magnificently, until this stove. Window builds up on both sides , center clear, not like the 13 nc which satyed clean and had such grt 2ndry burn. So, any advice from the sage on this stove, the cat thermometors, where it goes, etc is needed. Hoping this stove will replace the 13 NC and the pillsbury so I only have to deal with one good stove, bad back problems. Thanks for reading,
John

 

[raybonz]

Hi, I too found a completly unused englander 24 ICD cat monster, never used a cat stove b/f. So after getting this 570 lb monster into my 200 yr old giant fire place, hooked up to existing 6 " steel flu from my previous 13 NC englander, I am experimenting. I am a stove fanatic, this is new territory, I researched this stove extensively b/f buying it for peanuts. Made 1997, used 10 fires, sat until now with minor surface rust. Although cat looks fine and soo easy to get at since all new and no rust, I am sure a cat after 13 yrs must be old in some way, waiting for new one but couldnt resisit firing anyway. Swithed collar from back to top, gasket still looked good, now top vent into my 2 story chimney liner inside old chimney.
Started fire, 30 minutes later added wood, 15 minutes later great fire, good coals, cloesde door, kept draft fully opened to get it really cookin, then engaged cat. Some smokey smell when blower engaged, found that when opening door, it has to stay cracked 15 minutes to fully open or smoke comes out ( cat disengaged of course) . Burned hot, turned my seasoned 3 yr wood into coal? logs intact but completly burned ( wierd), no braekdown. Loaded stove last load 12 AM, tons of coals this morning 9 Am, instant fire again. I need to know more about temp gages, cat and reg, never had to use any with such draft. Had allnighters, fishers, pillsbury, englanders, all in this place, all burned magnificently, until this stove. Window builds up on both sides , center clear, not like the 13 nc which satyed clean and had such grt 2ndry burn. So, any advice from the sage on this stove, the cat thermometors, where it goes, etc is needed. Hoping this stove will replace the 13 NC and the pillsbury so I only have to deal with one good stove, bad back problems. Thanks for reading,
John

I wouldn't replace that cat as I doubt they would deteriorate with age.. Sounds like you got a great deal on that stove.. Best of luck on this classic stove!

Ray