What chunk of your total utilities is heating and Domestic Hot Water?
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How many therms of nat gas I mean (as that's the going unit for selling nat gas) do you get for that $1500?
JRHAWK9
Minister of Fire
Just doing some real quick math.
Assuming (see links provided below):
Cost of Natural Gas: $1/therm or 100,000 BTU's (from what I can tell, $1 per therm is on the very high side)
Wood: ~6,500 BTU's per pound @20% MC
Red Oak: ~3,570 lbs/cord @20% MC
American Elm: ~2,975 lbs/cord @20% MC
Silver Maple: ~2,805 lbs/cord @20% MC
Efficiency of wood stove: 70%
Efficiency of NG furnace: 92%
Now, converting that $1,500 of natural gas into BTU's: 150,000,000 BTU's...or 138,000,000 BTU's supplied to house @ 92% furnace efficiency.
Convert those BTU's into comparable wood usage: 21,231 lbs wood @ 100% wood stove efficiency.
Need ~30,300lb of wood burning in a stove at 70% efficiency to replace 1,500 therms of NG in a 92% efficient furnace.
Convert 30,300 lbs of wood into approximate cords of red oak: 8.5 cord
Convert 30,300 lbs of wood into approximate cords of American Elm: 10.2 cord
Convert 30,300 lbs of wood into approximate cords of Silver Maple: 10.8 cord
Conclusion, either you have not saved nearly as much as you think you have, or you have burned way more than "coming up on 4 cords". Chances are you are paying less than $1/therm too, which means you would be getting even more NG for your $1,500 and needing even more wood to replace it.
Assumptions came from:
Residential Fuel Comparisons | We Energies
Typical annual costs of home appliances.
www.we-energies.com
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Your solar, wind, heat pump are in now way fossil fuel eliminating. On a good sunny and windy day throughout the USA and in the best possible passive energy producing scenario, the fossil fueled energy plants will still need to be on line and producing power no matter your best efforts at self sufficiency.
fine, whatever. At least I'm not paying anything for the same that you pay $1500 for.
I'm done with this.
I'm done with this.
At this point absolutely. But alternative energies are without question reducing demand for power produced with fossil fuels. Why is that a bad thing?
Regardless this thread is about cost to the consumer. If you have a large enough solar setup after the payoff period your electricity is free. It's just that simple
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JRHAWK9
Minister of Fire
nope....you are at $0.9848/therm + $9.24/billing month facilities charge......pretty darn good guess on my part!
So what I posted is pretty darn close.
When is the payoff for all of the tax money handed to fossil fuel companies every year?
Ok enough of this diversion can we get back on topic please.
For me my electric bill is roughly $120 a month. That heats my water. No idea what percentage that is. I burn 10 to 15 gallons of oil on average during the heating months.
And I spend about $300 on propane a year. That is for the range and occasional use of the gas insert.
And I spend about $300 on propane a year. That is for the range and occasional use of the gas insert.
my eyes have been opened. Anyone want my 3 year supply a wood? I'm an idiot to work so hard at it.
If i had access to natural gas I would absolutely burn less wood. When either my oil furnace or central air unit craps out I will switch to a heat pump which will cut down on wood useage as wellmy eyes have been opened. Anyone want my 3 year supply a wood? I'm an idiot to work so hard at it.
JRHAWK9
Minister of Fire
my eyes have been opened. Anyone want my 3 year supply a wood? I'm an idiot to work so hard at it.
well, ya.
Although it sounds to me you are disappointed in how cheap natural gas is and really wish it costed more in order to justify burning wood.
Bad LP
Minister of Fire
I know to the gallon how much LP was used last delivery cycle for hot water, generator and cooking combined.
Bad LP
Minister of Fire
JRHAWK9
Minister of Fire
That's what our electric bill is a month on average. We don't have an electric clothes drier or water heater though. We do have an electric range and sleep with a high power fan on every night for white noise.
We also have three desktop computers running pretty much 24/7. We use about 150 gallons of LP a year. The majority of it is used by the water heater and clothes drier. According to my records of how often the LP furnace runs a heating season, it uses on average about 40 gallons a heating season. This all depends on how often we are gone during winter. In late February this year we left for a week. These were the high and low temps while we were gone.
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I had the house thermostat set at 55° and the LP furnace still ran for a total of 3,220 minutes. Approximately 170 of that was when I remotely bumped the LP thermostat to 68° when were were on our way home. Ended up costing us over $100 in LP to keep the house 55° over those 8 days.
tlc1976
Minister of Fire
My only recurring utility bill is electric, which I got down to $75 a month or $900 a year. About $40 of that is base fees. I figured about $13 a month to run the pellet stove or about 1/3, but only half the year so overall 1/6. So including a fair 1/6 of the base fees I’d say $150 a year in electric for heat.
Pellets I buy at will when they’re new stock and cheapest. Last 2 years have been $245 a ton with tax and using 3.5 tons a year that’s $858 a year. 100% for heat.
I fill the propane tank every 2 years when it’s cheapest. 2/3 of that is cooking, dryer, and water heater. I barely cook or do laundry so most of it is probably water heater. 1/3 is to keep the boiler on standby during the winter for emergency heat so that counts. Used to be $1.70 a gallon so about $635 ($318), now it’s about $2.70 a gallon so about $1010 ($505). So if I said it was 5/6 heat for 2 years that would be $265 a year previously, or $421 a year now. Wishful thinking it will go down some in August like usual.
Is fiber internet a qualifying utility? If so that’s $60 a month or $720 a year.
Using the lower propane price, counting the internet it’s $2796 total yearly utility. $2076 without. Heat utility portion $1273.
So with internet is 46% heat. Without is 61% heat. Hope I did this right, my brain is ready for the weekend.
Pellets I buy at will when they’re new stock and cheapest. Last 2 years have been $245 a ton with tax and using 3.5 tons a year that’s $858 a year. 100% for heat.
I fill the propane tank every 2 years when it’s cheapest. 2/3 of that is cooking, dryer, and water heater. I barely cook or do laundry so most of it is probably water heater. 1/3 is to keep the boiler on standby during the winter for emergency heat so that counts. Used to be $1.70 a gallon so about $635 ($318), now it’s about $2.70 a gallon so about $1010 ($505). So if I said it was 5/6 heat for 2 years that would be $265 a year previously, or $421 a year now. Wishful thinking it will go down some in August like usual.
Is fiber internet a qualifying utility? If so that’s $60 a month or $720 a year.
Using the lower propane price, counting the internet it’s $2796 total yearly utility. $2076 without. Heat utility portion $1273.
So with internet is 46% heat. Without is 61% heat. Hope I did this right, my brain is ready for the weekend.
At least I get to pay an extra 3% for some freeloader BTU's as well.well, ya.
Although it sounds to me you are disappointed in how cheap natural gas is and really wish it costed more in order to justify burning wood.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Well, this is about the most entertaining thread I've read in awhile. I hope we keep it going, and the mod's don't see any need to shut it down. I'll do my best to post my numbers below, but first:
In this calculation, I had included the most cost-effective appliance replacements at every step, for every major appliance based on their average end of life dates. I was so surprised by the result that I forwarded it to @woodgeek, who seems to me to be about the smartest guy I've ever met on these subjects, and he concurred finding the same result on his own.
As to my numbers, the yearly average over the last several years:
10 cords wood (mostly red oak, white oak, ash)
970 - 1050 (call it ~1020) gallons oil
< 100 gallons LP
19,342 kWh electric (minisplit heat pumps, but also includes lights, dehumidifiers, etc.)
If we apply some assumed efficiencies and distributions:
240M BTU x 80% = 19M BTU from wood
140M BTU x 95% = 133M BTU from oil
9M BTU x 82% = 7.4M BTU from LP
Unfortunately, digging into the electric usage proved more difficult. Heat pumps are Mitsubishi minisplits, operating in climate zone 6b, likely reasonably efficient outside of two weeks in January. I had expected to see clear trends of low usage in May and September, when we need very little heating OR cooling, in order to pick out the differential costs of heat pump heating and cooling in summer and winter, respectively. But unfortunately, Feb-Apr are my lowest electric kWh months, which really makes no sense to me.
You are forgetting that we determined in prior threads, that snobuilder's setup must be running damn near negative efficiency. It is very possible his prior claims of not saving any money by burning wood are true, given how little fuel he's saving, per cord of wood burned.
I recently looked at this for a family member who was looking at making an investment in solar for their home. I also had some thoughts of my own about replacing my roof with solar slate tiles, at some point in the future, so I figured this would be a chance to get a good look at the numbers. I was really surprised to find there was absolutely no way to ever make solar pay for itself. Best case, if applying tax credits (PA) and NOT accounting for inflation or lost investment income, my family member's proposed system would just break even after 13 years, and never overtake the cost of doing nothing. Once you figure in simple inflation, spending 2020 dollars to recoup 2030 dollars, it's a losing battle, residential solar will never pay.
In this calculation, I had included the most cost-effective appliance replacements at every step, for every major appliance based on their average end of life dates. I was so surprised by the result that I forwarded it to @woodgeek, who seems to me to be about the smartest guy I've ever met on these subjects, and he concurred finding the same result on his own.
As to my numbers, the yearly average over the last several years:
10 cords wood (mostly red oak, white oak, ash)
970 - 1050 (call it ~1020) gallons oil
< 100 gallons LP
19,342 kWh electric (minisplit heat pumps, but also includes lights, dehumidifiers, etc.)
If we apply some assumed efficiencies and distributions:
240M BTU x 80% = 19M BTU from wood
140M BTU x 95% = 133M BTU from oil
9M BTU x 82% = 7.4M BTU from LP
Unfortunately, digging into the electric usage proved more difficult. Heat pumps are Mitsubishi minisplits, operating in climate zone 6b, likely reasonably efficient outside of two weeks in January. I had expected to see clear trends of low usage in May and September, when we need very little heating OR cooling, in order to pick out the differential costs of heat pump heating and cooling in summer and winter, respectively. But unfortunately, Feb-Apr are my lowest electric kWh months, which really makes no sense to me.
My solar does financially make sense. Because I only paid 45% of its cost due to tax credits (Fed and State) back in '18.
Tax credits are going down, and break even time is going up therefore.
Even then 13 years to break even may not sound nice, but another 13 years after that with no electricity cost (at net metering, another necessity), does make it make sense.
Tax credits are going down, and break even time is going up therefore.
Even then 13 years to break even may not sound nice, but another 13 years after that with no electricity cost (at net metering, another necessity), does make it make sense.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
You're always welcome to move to a place where taxes are lower. Last I checked, Bermuda and United Aram Emirates have zero income tax.
What I pay in taxes is obscene, your head would likely spin off, if you only knew. But to bastardize an old Churchill quote, "ours is the worst system on earth, except all the others." He was talking about democracy, but it finds application nearly anywhere you look, including our tax codes. When I travel, and look at the trade-offs others face, versus what we have in this country, I feel less bad about what we're paying.
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