What a Hack Job!

[seaken]

Shane, I can't tell you how many times I've thought about getting out of this business. But, it passes. This business needs guys like us. Don't give up, if you like what you're doing. You will never see an end to the hackers and a***oles. It is hard to deal with but it's like that in every business. Just make up your mind to do it right and work hard to market your skills to people who will appreciate it.

Someone said it seems like only the wealthy can afford good craftsmanship any more. I've often complained similarly - from the point of view of a craftsman. I treat everyone the same. Their level of wealth does not influence my skill level and my own personal commitment to quality. However, economics does prevent me from providing my quality labor to lower half of the economic scale in my community. In order to stay in business I have to charge over $100 per hour. There are many people who can not afford that. So, unfortunately, these people often think I am "ripping them off" and charge "rediculous prices". They then go looking for someone else who charges less and they end up with a hack who doesn't care. It costs a lot of money to care. If I didn't care to do it right, or if I could get by with making less than $20K, I would be able to provide my services at prices acceptable to the lower half of the income scale. What really hurts is when a company charges as much or more and then ends up doing what you have shown us in these examples. This happens because people really do not understand what we do. There is no respect in the community for the value of a hearth specialist. You and I, and everyone else who is serious about the value we offer, need to work hard to change this.

But be careful. Getting on the wrong side of politics can hurt you. Learn to shake your head and walk away. Find those people who appreciate your value and treat them as special people (because they are). They will do your lobbying for you.

Good luck,
Sean

 

[Shane]

I've certainly learned to walk away. (We made the fatal mistake of appealing an inspectors decision once I'll post that story & pics later) That's why I posted all this here & didn't mention any names, locations etc. I even went as far as to remove my location from my signature just for this post. Alot of people know where I'm from, but I don't think I've ever slipped up and mentioned competitors names etc. I know there is nothing that I can do other than document and continue to do a good job.

Elk,

I think that your looking at the product of an oil boom. This particular neighborhood went up during the late 70's or early 80's during the boom. Many things were not even inspected. I got a scary look at some of that last year. I got a contract to clean 150 rental properties. Upon inspection I recommeded that they not burn well over half of them. No firestops, paper backed insulation & other combustbles were in direct contact with teh top of the ZC fireplaces and chimney. The chimney touched rafters etc all the way up. Standoffs smashed down to accomodate incorrect framing, wood facing covering the units right up to the fireplace opening. On and on.

 

[elkimmeg]

Since I have two VC dealers Shane and seaken care to share how doing business with the curent VC products and service
I posted my plant tour visit and came under fire from Downeast he suggested I talk to current dealers before we pass off VC's sins of the past
I agree and would hope both of you share your dealings with the current company and product line Has quality improved and has manufacturer to dealer relationship improved or inyour oppinions what needs to be addressed also I hope you enjoyed the video of the plant tour

Edit
follow up links

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/5224/

plant tour Video

The day after the tour and our impressions
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/5145/

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/5172/

the explanation of the Ever Burn Technology

 

[seaken]

Hey, Downeast had a bad experience and VC was to blame. Can't fault the guy for being pi**ed off. Most of our customers are very happy but we have a few who believe VC is crap, just like Downeast. I can say the same for other brands. What make a dealer different from the average consumer is that we see thousands and thousands of cases first hand and cannot see in black and white.

We are mostly happy with VC. We have our own issues, just like any company. We would like for every manufacturer to deal with us perfectly. Not one of them does. That's reality. But there are some manuafacturers who seem to be more responsive to customer feedback and make it easier to do business with them. VC has to keep improving if they are going to stay one of the top brands. They have improved from where they were under the previous CFM corporate machine. But they still have work to do. I would like to see them take the lead in direct customer service. Set up a direct line of conversation with their customers and work to solve their problems directly. I would like to see this accross the board in our industry. A company like VC could make a difference if they were to figure out a way to do this.

Sean

Since I have two VC dealers Shane and seaken care to share how doing business with the curent VC products and service
I posted my plant tour visit and came under fire from Downeast he suggested I talk to current dealers before we pass off VC's sins of the past
I agree and would hope both of you share your dealings with the current company and product line Has quality improved and has manufacturer to dealer relationship improved or inyour oppinions what needs to be addressed also I hope you enjoyed the video of the plant tour

Edit
follow up links

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/5224/

plant tour Video

The day after the tour and our impressions
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/5145/

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/5172/

the explanation of the Ever Burn Technology

 

[BrotherBart]

Seaken:

"I would like to see them take the lead in direct customer service. Set up a direct line of conversation with their customers and work to solve their problems directly. I would like to see this accross the board in our industry. A company like VC could make a difference if they were to figure out a way to do this."

There is this stove company down in Monroe, Virginia. At the top of the first page of the user's manual they say:

NOTE: IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS UNIT DO NOT RETURN IT TO THE DEALER. CONTACT CUSTOMER SERVICE @ 1-800-245-6489.

Bought a stove. It had a problem. Did the dealer ever even know it happened?

Nope.

Do I have a new stove and am I happy?

Yep.

 

[seaken]

Seaken:

"I would like to see them take the lead in direct customer service. Set up a direct line of conversation with their customers and work to solve their problems directly. I would like to see this accross the board in our industry. A company like VC could make a difference if they were to figure out a way to do this."

There is this stove company down in Monroe, Virginia. At the top of the first page of the user's manual they say:

NOTE: IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS UNIT DO NOT RETURN IT TO THE DEALER. CONTACT CUSTOMER SERVICE @ 1-800-245-6489.

Bought a stove. It had a problem. Did the dealer ever even know it happened?

Nope.

Do I have a new stove and am I happy?

Yep.

Yes, that works for the DIY market. Woodstock soapstone also has a reputation for this type of service. What we need is a better system for the dealer who is working for clients who can't or won't do it themselves.

 

[elkimmeg]

call

Consumer Call Centre
410 Admiral Blvd.
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
L5T 2N6
Telephone: 1-800-668-5323
Facsimile: 1-877-565-2929

 

[Shane]

Well I guess that's my second complaint against VC. We'll wait and see what the prices of this online store are like, but I have an inkling that they just cut into my replacement parts business in a big way. Thanks CFM! Big thumbs up! (note that last comment was soaked in sarcasm!)

 

[Shane]

Oh yeah the outcome of the whole gas stove/water heater mess. The AHJ determined that the listed & tested vent manufacturers componenets were not necessary and that all that needed to be done was seal the Wall thimble with silicone. I am so pissed off that I could puke. Why even bother doing things right? Why not just rig them charge double for it and have the AHJ approve it! I'd make a hell of alot more money, and not be made to look like a crook while doing it!

Elk, is that an acceptable practice? I know that local authorities can have more stringent code requirements than the code they've adopted but can they look at a piece of code and say I don't like that so it doesn't apply even though it common freakin sense? And even if they can isn't it a formal written procedure not just some in the field call to prevent yourself from looking like you don't know WTF your talking about.

 

[elkimmeg]

To answer guestion #1 they sell parts list price I doubt you will have to worry about competition If I had not posted the Info nobady know about it till now.

#2 Boy do I wish I was a Fed inspector. Stuff like you are talking about would get solved pretty quickly ImaGINE IF A FED INSPECTOR CALLED YOU LOCAL GUY AND TOLD HIM HE BETTER GET HIS ACT TOGETHER AND PRONTO. and this within a week I want a full written report Based on either the Internaytional Gass code or International mechanical code on my desk by next week.

That lazy inspector in Iowa that could not be bothered Could use a phone call to remind of his duties.

Answering my question As long as that inspector thinks he can get away with what he is doing he is writting his own code/ Me If I go against manufacture's specs I better have written code to support my decision. I can't act as your local did or does. Its not right I really can't say what I am thinking and it not just because of language.

You will have to swallow your thoughts and tounge don't say anything and try to work with the current inspector. Again this still is not right, but life does not always deal a fair hand.

Just do things the way you are doing, do them right, and don't worry about the other shop practices in your area or that inspector

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Seaken:

"I would like to see them take the lead in direct customer service. Set up a direct line of conversation with their customers and work to solve their problems directly. I would like to see this accross the board in our industry. A company like VC could make a difference if they were to figure out a way to do this."

There is this stove company down in Monroe, Virginia. At the top of the first page of the user's manual they say:

NOTE: IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS UNIT DO NOT RETURN IT TO THE DEALER. CONTACT CUSTOMER SERVICE @ 1-800-245-6489.

Bought a stove. It had a problem. Did the dealer ever even know it happened?

Nope.

Do I have a new stove and am I happy?

Yep.

Yes, that works for the DIY market. Woodstock soapstone also has a reputation for this type of service. What we need is a better system for the dealer who is working for clients who can't or won't do it themselves.

hey, there is no reason it cannot work for dealer based manufacturers as well,VC builds the product (no elk im not picking on them im applauding them) they know their product better than anyone else does (they should , they build and test them) who better to get information from about the unit itself than them. now, that aside, the dealer or installation expert is a better bet as far as situations such as draw issues they can look at it first hand( i wish i was more experienced in that respect myself)
we are blessed in here by having participation from the whole spectrum. installers, seasoned operators, inspectors, and manufacturers. each has his/her own area of expertise. i since i have been frequenting this forum, have directed several people to look in here for answers if i cant provide them, you know why? i'll tell ya, ive sat here and read and read, you guys know stuff that i do not because its what you do, and i know from reading that there aint no hacks in here the pro's would not allow it! but, when it comes to the actual unit that is produced, there should be no more knowledgable on that subject than the manufacturer. the system we have at ESW is there not only because of the fact that we are a DIY based manufacturer, but because we know our product, not taking away from the fine folks in here, im sure that VC has people who could do this kind of work as well. as do most any other reputable stove manufacturer and i think they should have this knowledge available to the customer if they want it.

 

[BrotherBart]

Exactly my point Mike and Seeken. It appears that dealers can't get the kind of response from manufacturers that I got from you guys at England Stove Works. That is absolutley wrong. If a dealer puts his financial butt on the line to sell a company's product he ought to be able to get answers, replacements and parts in a heartbeat.

The reputation the "big guys" have in this business is why I bought your stove in the first place Mike. I never expected to have to depend on you backing it up but it happened. And you did. And I didn't have to watch a frustrated dealer stuck in the middle between me and the manufacturer. The dealers in this business have enough to deal with with us nutcase buyers without having to be dumped on by the companies whose products they chose to sell.

So to the Harmans, Jotuls, Vermont Castings et. al. I say get off or your collective butts and give these dealers the support they need. The reasons for burning wood are not growing, they are dying. Ya ain't the only stoves in town. When all is said and done it just has to be a box that burns some doug fir without smoking up the neighborhood or burning down a house.

Everything else is just how pretty your enamel looks in the glossy brochures.

Damn this is good Scotch!

 

[begreen]

Damn this is good Scotch!

And that would be...?

 

[Homefire]

#2 Boy do I wish I was a Fed inspector. Stuff like you are talking about would get solved pretty quickly ImaGINE IF A FED INSPECTOR CALLED YOU LOCAL GUY AND TOLD HIM HE BETTER GET HIS ACT TOGETHER AND PRONTO. and this within a week I want a full written report Based on either the Internaytional Gass code or International mechanical code on my desk by next week.

LMAOROTF