Walls and ceiling can make excellent radiant panels___ Do you agree?

[Gooserider]

Note that I was NOT arguing that Aluminum and other metal setups were good - quite the opposite, mixed systems were problematic at best. However, in some other applications (car and motorcycle engines, etc.) an ALL ALUMINUM setup - i.e. all parts that contact the coolant are either aluminum or non corroding rubber / plastic, then they worked reasonably well - I haven't heard of unusually short life spans on all Al auto coolant systems for instance...

The thing is, I don't know if it would be possible to build an all Aluminum heating system, as I have no idea whether the needed components are available - especially plumbing fittings and things like that. (I'm also not terribly interested, as I think copper is better...

Gooserider

 

[in hot water]

I have ceiling radiant in my home. Third winter on it. I installed it when my wife was out of town hoping she would never notice it, since it is exposed! She tells people she feels like she is living in a broiler. Because of the look.

I have to tell you, as a long time radiant floor installer and owner, they work very well. This is PAP in extruded aluminum transfer plates. Spacing varies fron 8" on the perimeter to 12" as it moves in.

A few advantages.... you can run them a bit warmer, since no one typically walks on the ceiling. So you can get some good BTU/ square foot outputs. Floors are lim uted to about 83- 85F surface temperatures.

No one puts carpet or furniture on the ceiling so you get a lot of square footage emitter.

Properly install it hides nicely and a change of floor covering does not effect it.

It is much, much faster responding than a radiant concrete slab, low mass accelerates and decelerates quickly.

Radiant energy travels in all directions from warm to cold, the only place I notice the lack of radiant warmth is when my feet are under the coffee table for example. Keep in mind the sun is 93 millions miles from earth and even on a zero degree day the sun's rays feel warm on your face.

It is possible to do radiant cooling with radiant ceilings, in fact it is the best way to cool. However dew point and de-humidification need to be taken into account. In Europe ceiling cooling is done with drop in aluminum panels in commercial spaces. Dessiciant wheels with very small ducting handles the de-humidification and IAQ..

Even in humid Missouri you can take a bite out of the cooling load with chilled water radiant.

hr

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

Properly install it hides nicely and a change of floor covering does not effect it.

Speaking of which, have you ever installed ceiling radiant with tin ceilings? I have a tin ceiling in my master bedroom, and a tin ceiling in the room below (so I can't install radiant from underneath). I've been toying with going up into the attic and installing radiant tubing against the top of the tin, if I can come up with a good way to secure it so that the heat transfers well, without damaging the ceiling...

Joe

 

[DaveBP]

Metallic aluminum has a very low thermal emissivity (now there's a term I find hard to work into most conversations). Meaning it doesn't radiate heat very well. Painting it flat black will make it give off heat much better the same way it will make it absorb heat radiation better. Solar panels are always black for this reason. But it works in the other direction as well. So people thinking of making radiant panels with exposed aluminum heat spreaders will get better results by painting the exposed surface flat black.

It might get you kicked out of the interior decorators' union, though.

Or in Hot Rod's case, kicked out of the house.

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

So people thinking of making radiant panels with exposed aluminum heat spreaders will get better results by painting the exposed surface flat black.

It might get you kicked out of the interior decorators' union, though.

Actually, I had a customer ask me how to remove a panel radiator. I was curious why he needed to, and he said that since the radiator we installed is in the room that became his TV room, he wanted to paint it black to blend in with the decor better - the white radiator was an eyesore with all the black A/V components...

(and, FYI, most panel radiators can easily be painted by hand, or by an auto body shop, where they could actually match the color to the rest of the room's decor, if they are at least halfway-capable)

Joe

 

[pybyr]

I have ceiling radiant in my home. Third winter on it. I installed it when my wife was out of town hoping she would never notice it, since it is exposed! She tells people she feels like she is living in a broiler. Because of the look.

hr

Wow- does your wife have any single siblings, or cousins, etc., willing to move to the snowy north? I really need to meet a woman who is similarly tolerant of innovative projects!

 

[Gooserider]

Metallic aluminum has a very low thermal emissivity (now there's a term I find hard to work into most conversations). Meaning it doesn't radiate heat very well. Painting it flat black will make it give off heat much better the same way it will make it absorb heat radiation better. Solar panels are always black for this reason. But it works in the other direction as well. So people thinking of making radiant panels with exposed aluminum heat spreaders will get better results by painting the exposed surface flat black.

It might get you kicked out of the interior decorators' union, though.

Or in Hot Rod's case, kicked out of the house.

Maybe, but I think he'd be better off painting them bright red, maybe with some flames coming out the sides.... %-P

Gooserider

 

[in hot water]

Properly install it hides nicely and a change of floor covering does not effect it.

Speaking of which, have you ever installed ceiling radiant with tin ceilings? I have a tin ceiling in my master bedroom, and a tin ceiling in the room below (so I can't install radiant from underneath). I've been toying with going up into the attic and installing radiant tubing against the top of the tin, if I can come up with a good way to secure it so that the heat transfers well, without damaging the ceiling...

Joe

I think tin ceilings would make a great low temperature, radiant surface. Constant circulation would keep temperature swings to a minimun.

I actually wanted to tin over this project. I even visited a tin ceiling manufacturer nearby here in Missouri. www.wfnorman.com

To buy new tin ceiling with all the associated trim pieces is a bit to pricey for me. And the handful of samples they gave me wouldn't cover much square footage

It was fun to watch them stamp that tin. Those huge presses shake the entire city block when they are hammering.

As for installing from above. The best I came up with was some of those Roth panels with aluminum over foam. Somehow snap the tube into the grooves and place it against the sheetrock from above, aluminum side down. Maybe the weight of the insulation over that would keep a good conduction contact.

Here are some of my radiator projects. In one bathroom I installed tube in a concrete counter top pour, and a towel shelf below.

the master bedroom has a copper "hydronic bed frame", and a concrete dog with CSST tubing inside is a radiator and towel warmer in the master bath.

hr

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

To buy new tin ceiling with all the associated trim pieces is a bit to pricey for me.

Tell me about it! That's why I'd never risk trying to remove the ceiling below, in order to do underfloor radiant. The cost of repairs if there was any significant damage would be too high. I don't even want to risk removing the subfloor and laying Warmboard or something like that, because of the risk that the old joists might twist with only the ceiling below to support them.

As for installing from above. The best I came up with was some of those Roth panels with aluminum over foam. Somehow snap the tube into the grooves and place it against the sheetrock from above, aluminum side down. Maybe the weight of the insulation over that would keep a good conduction contact.

There's no sheetrock - just the tin ceiling. My concern is that the actual contact between the tubes and the ceiling will be limited, due to the molding of the ceiling.

Here are some of my radiator projects. In one bathroom I installed tube in a concrete counter top pour, and a towel shelf below.

the master bedroom has a copper "hydronic bed frame", and a concrete dog with CSST tubing inside is a radiator and towel warmer in the master bath.

Yeah, there are some nice tricks that can be done with radiant. I've been thinking of casting a whirlpool tub/shower for my first-floor bathroom (no way to support the weight if it were in the second floor). The radiant tubing could maintain the temperature without adding more hot water, and make it nicer to step into on a cold morning. Plus, I think I can reverse the heat transfer and suck heat out of the tub water before draining it. Won't be hot enough to heat the living spaces, but I'm figuring I can dump the heat into the (cooler) basement and crawlspaces, thereby reducing the heat loss downward through the floor of the house.

Joe