Uninsulated Liner?

[DBoon]

24 replies and no one has commented on the picture of Caw's enormous dog next to his mini-insert? Hearth.com is certainly changing...

I imagine that must be a 200 lb. mastiff - what's the over/under betting line on the weight of that dog?

 

[bholler]

24 replies and no one has commented on the picture of Caw's enormous dog next to his mini-insert? Hearth.com is certainly changing...
View attachment 275861
I imagine that must be a 200 lb. mastiff - what's the over/under betting line on the weight of that dog?

There was a comment right after he posted it.

 

[begreen]

And the dog is in many of these postings and commented on a doggone lot of times.

 

[clancey]

I love doggies and that one is real nice looking but do not you think malnourished? He is a beautiful dog and looks so nice by the fire for he likes it there...

 

[brenndatomu]

200 lb "malnourished" puppy
I know I wouldn't want to be the one to have to pick up all that "doggie exhaust" out of the yard!

 

[Caw]

Another thread Gordon-jacked . He's usually involved in any stove pics I have so he shows up a lot. He's adept at making things look tiny...including my insert.

Gordon is an 18 month old English Mastiff and weighs 185 lbs. Today he ate 10 cups of kibble, an egg, and 2 pieces of pizza lol so don't feel bad for him...he's certainly not malnourished.

Back to the topic though - very curious what they say about going down to 5.5". I highly doubt they say go for it in writing but it's worth asking. Like I said earlier I think the most important think is having a liner in there period. Venting into the flue without a liner is usually not the best idea.

 

[tabner]

Another thread Gordon-jacked . He's usually involved in any stove pics I have so he shows up a lot. He's adept at making things look tiny...including my insert.

Gordon is an 18 month old English Mastiff and weighs 185 lbs. Today he ate 10 cups of kibble, an egg, and 2 pieces of pizza lol so don't feel bad for him...he's certainly not malnourished.

Back to the topic though - very curious what they say about going down to 5.5". I highly doubt they say go for it in writing but it's worth asking. Like I said earlier I think the most important think is having a liner in there period. Venting into a naked flue is almost never a good idea.

I called the stove dealer I purchased it from, and their tech was definitely against it. He said unless I get something in writing from hearthstone he definitely wouldn't do it. But that was mainly from a liability stand point. He was more in favor of a bare 6". But he did point out that even the bare 6" is gonna be tricky. Hoping hearthstone emails me back.

 

[DeadTreeBurner]

Another thread Gordon-jacked . He's usually involved in any stove pics I have so he shows up a lot. He's adept at making things look tiny...including my insert.

Gordon is an 18 month old English Mastiff and weighs 185 lbs. Today he ate 10 cups of kibble, an egg, and 2 pieces of pizza lol so don't feel bad for him...he's certainly not malnourished.

Back to the topic though - very curious what they say about going down to 5.5". I highly doubt they say go for it in writing but it's worth asking. Like I said earlier I think the most important think is having a liner in there period. Venting into a naked flue is almost never a good idea.

When is venting to a "naked" flue alright? Up until recently I hadn't heard of chimney liners, but I haven't had the need to know as I did not previously own a home with a wood or pellet burner. My parents have always heated with wood and they don't have a liner. The house I just bought has a 27' exterior masonry chimney with clay tile in good condition. It was built in '87. I've been using the Buck Model 81 the previous owner installed, as is. I'm assuming the house and chimney was built to code, but did things change in the last 30 years to require a SS liner?
In looking at liners, I'm seeing them state 0" liner clearance in masonry chimneys only if liner is insulated which seems like nonsense to me when you're adding a liner to improve draft, etc. What gives?

 

[bholler]

Another thread Gordon-jacked . He's usually involved in any stove pics I have so he shows up a lot. He's adept at making things look tiny...including my insert.

Gordon is an 18 month old English Mastiff and weighs 185 lbs. Today he ate 10 cups of kibble, an egg, and 2 pieces of pizza lol so don't feel bad for him...he's certainly not malnourished.

Back to the topic though - very curious what they say about going down to 5.5". I highly doubt they say go for it in writing but it's worth asking. Like I said earlier I think the most important think is having a liner in there period. Venting into a naked flue is almost never a good idea.

It isn't naked it is clay lined with proper clearances

 

[bholler]

When is venting to a "naked" flue alright? Up until recently I hadn't heard of chimney liners, but I haven't had the need to know as I did not previously own a home with a wood or pellet burner. My parents have always heated with wood and they don't have a liner. The house I just bought has a 27' exterior masonry chimney with clay tile in good condition. It was built in '87. I've been using the Buck Model 81 the previous owner installed, as is. I'm assuming the house and chimney was built to code, but did things change in the last 30 years to require a SS liner?
In looking at liners, I'm seeing them state 0" liner clearance in masonry chimneys only if liner is insulated which seems like nonsense to me when you're adding a liner to improve draft, etc. What gives?

Their chimney is lined. Clay is still a perfectly acceptable liner if built correctly and sized properly. The problem with clay is that it transfers heat very well through to the masonry structure which also transfers heat very well. Because of this you need to allow clearance around that masonry structure to combustibles to prevent a dangerous situation. This is far from a new requirement. And no your parents chimney was probably not built to code most are not. And you can usually get away with it but the danger is there.

 

[DeadTreeBurner]

Their chimney is lined. Clay is still a perfectly acceptable liner if built correctly and sized properly. The problem with clay is that it transfers heat very well through to the masonry structure which also transfers heat very well. Because of this you need to allow clearance around that masonry structure to combustibles to prevent a dangerous situation. This is far from a new requirement. And no your parents chimney was probably not built to code most are not. And you can usually get away with it but the danger is there.

Thanks for the clarification, I got a little confused in this thread.

I was referring to my house that I just bought specifically being built to code, but I would include my parent's house as well. Both houses passed inspection and received their occupancy permits. How would most homes with chimneys not be built to code? Are inspectors that incompetent?
I know what you're talking about w/ transfer of heat, the block/grouting touching my clay thimble reaches around 170 degrees when the stove is fired up to max temps. But the sides and bottom area is significantly cooler.

But to the point, it sounds like zero clearance with an uninsulated liner in a properly constructed masonry chimney is fine. I think that was pointed out earlier already though.

I would venture to say that even if a masonry chimney has no clearance to combustibles, zero clearance with a SS liner is in practice safe. The surface area of a round SS liner touching clay tile is going to be very small relatively speaking, it's going to be point contact all the way up. There will be some radiated heat as well, but there's also a lot of air gap and cooling and it will be even cooler the further away from the stove you get. There's a lot of mass in a masonry chimney to absorb, distribute and dissipate heat.

 

[Caw]

It isn't naked it is clay lined with proper clearances

Hmm poor choice of words. My whole point was simply recommending a liner in addition to the terracotta though. I'll edit it for clarification. Ty.

Side note though - how often do you see "slammed" stoves vented right into a terracotta lined chimney?

 

[clancey]

There is a real danger here because (I hope I am interrupting this right) (forgive me if I am not) for I do not know that much about this but I will tell you a story. I have my home which was built in 1926 and it has a chimney because it used to have coal heating where the brick chimney years ago had vents that went into the chimney for exhaust as well as vents going to the different rooms. Well the first year or two when I moved into the house after I bought it cheap I got a carbon dioxide thing that warned you of something wrong---it keep going off and I could not figure out why thinking it was the batteries or something. Well I began to get real sick when I put the force air heater on and real sleepy and the co detector went off again so I opened up all the doors and windows (in the deep of the winter) and the next day I had a furnace man come and he told me that I most likely got a down draft because of the cold and carbon dioxide leaked into my house from the chimney and I said how is this it is brick? And he said you have no liner and it needs one with a cap to keep out the rain and I said "why" its brick and he said that it has openings in it and the gas is escaping and I be darn when we took off some of the covering (drywall) it had holes in the brick that were covered with pie pans glued in I guess and some of the morter holding the bricks was caked out and holes in it--so of course I got a brand new liner from the boiler exhaust to the cap fit tight and never had the problem again..Hope this is what you are talking about and hope it helps...Get a Liner...chancey

 

[bholler]

Hmm poor choice of words. My whole point was simply recommending a liner in addition to the terracotta though. I'll edit it for clarification. Ty.

Side note though - how often do you see "slammed" stoves vented right into a terracotta lined chimney?

A "slammer" install is a completely different situation than we are talking about and is not safe at all. A slammer is an insert simply slid into a fireplace with no connection. This is a stove being hooked to a dedicated clay lined chimney built specifically for the purpose. And I see more stoves run through clay lined chimneys than info stainless lined ones. Actual slammers are getting pretty uncommon

 

[bholler]

There is a real danger here because (I hope I am interrupting this right) (forgive me if I am not) for I do not know that much about this but I will tell you a story. I have my home which was built in 1926 and it has a chimney because it used to have coal heating where the brick chimney years ago had vents that went into the chimney for exhaust as well as vents going to the different rooms. Well the first year or two when I moved into the house after I bought it cheap I got a carbon dioxide thing that warned you of something wrong---it keep going off and I could not figure out why thinking it was the batteries or something. Well I began to get real sick when I put the force air heater on and real sleepy and the co detector went off again so I opened up all the doors and windows (in the deep of the winter) and the next day I had a furnace man come and he told me that I most likely got a down draft because of the cold and carbon dioxide leaked into my house from the chimney and I said how is this it is brick? And he said you have no liner and it needs one with a cap to keep out the rain and I said "why" its brick and he said that it has openings in it and the gas is escaping and I be darn when we took off some of the covering (drywall) it had holes in the brick that were covered with pie pans glued in I guess and some of the morter holding the bricks was caked out and holes in it--so of course I got a brand new liner from the boiler exhaust to the cap fit tight and never had the problem again..Hope this is what you are talking about and hope it helps...Get a Liner...chancey

He has a liner. He is planning on getting a better stainless one but his chimney is not unlined.

 

[DeadTreeBurner]

There is a real danger here because (I hope I am interrupting this right) (forgive me if I am not) for I do not know that much about this but I will tell you a story. I have my home which was built in 1926 and it has a chimney because it used to have coal heating where the brick chimney years ago had vents that went into the chimney for exhaust as well as vents going to the different rooms. Well the first year or two when I moved into the house after I bought it cheap I got a carbon dioxide thing that warned you of something wrong---it keep going off and I could not figure out why thinking it was the batteries or something. Well I began to get real sick when I put the force air heater on and real sleepy and the co detector went off again so I opened up all the doors and windows (in the deep of the winter) and the next day I had a furnace man come and he told me that I most likely got a down draft because of the cold and carbon dioxide leaked into my house from the chimney and I said how is this it is brick? And he said you have no liner and it needs one with a cap to keep out the rain and I said "why" its brick and he said that it has openings in it and the gas is escaping and I be darn when we took off some of the covering (drywall) it had holes in the brick that were covered with pie pans glued in I guess and some of the morter holding the bricks was caked out and holes in it--so of course I got a brand new liner from the boiler exhaust to the cap fit tight and never had the problem again..Hope this is what you are talking about and hope it helps...Get a Liner...chancey

No, not really what's being talked about. Yours was/is a chimney that was in disrepair and sounds like it didn't even have a clay liner, so HUGE safety concerns all the way around. You definitely needed a SS liner with proper insulation. Glad you survived.

 

[Caw]

A "slammer" install is a completely different situation than we are talking about and is not safe at all. A slammer is an insert simply slid into a fireplace with no connection. This is a stove being hooked to a dedicated clay lined chimney built specifically for the purpose. And I see more stoves run through clay lined chimneys than info stainless lined ones. Actual slammers are getting pretty uncommon

Ok thanks for clarifying.

I want to be more accurate in future discussions so would you consider a flex SS liner in a terracotta lined masonry chimney an "insulated liner" (this is what I have but I've always considered it uninsulated). It seems like it kind of is but it's obviously not the same as dropping a one piece insulated liner or pouring insulation.

 

[bholler]

Thanks for the clarification, I got a little confused in this thread.

I was referring to my house that I just bought specifically being built to code, but I would include my parent's house as well. Both houses passed inspection and received their occupancy permits. How would most homes with chimneys not be built to code? Are inspectors that incompetent?
I know what you're talking about w/ transfer of heat, the block/grouting touching my clay thimble reaches around 170 degrees when the stove is fired up to max temps. But the sides and bottom area is significantly cooler.

But to the point, it sounds like zero clearance with an uninsulated liner in a properly constructed masonry chimney is fine. I think that was pointed out earlier already though.

I would venture to say that even if a masonry chimney has no clearance to combustibles, zero clearance with a SS liner is in practice safe. The surface area of the SS liner touching clay tile is going to be very small relatively speaking, it's going to be point contact all the way up. There will be some radiated heat as well, but there's also a lot of air gap and cooling and it will be even cooler the further away from the stove you get. There's a lot of mass in a masonry chimney to absorb, distribute and dissipate heat.

Passing inspection does not mean it is actually to code it just means it passed inspection. And yes most inspectors know very little about chimneys. They miss severe problems all the time. A bare stainless liner in a noncompliant chimney is certainly safer but testing shows it still is not safe.

 

[clancey]

Thanks dead tree burner but just in case they were talking about that and wanted them to know how dangerous that might have been and I am glad I'm alive because my foot ball game was on that night with Seattle playing the Denver and it was important to be still around. Sorry I interrupted but I sensed danger for the nice young man and wanted to share a real story.. I will butt out now..clancey

 

[bholler]

Ok thanks for clarifying.

I want to be more accurate in future discussions so would you consider a flex SS liner in a terracotta lined masonry chimney an "insulated liner" (this is what I have). It seems like it kind of is but it's obviously not the same as dropping a one piece insulated liner or pouring insulation.

A ss flex liner in a clay lined chimney is not an insulated liner unless it has proper insulation around it.

 

[bholler]

Thanks dead tree burner but just in case they were talking about that and wanted them to know how dangerous that might have been and I am glad I'm alive because my foot ball game was on that night with Seattle playing the Denver and it was important to be still around. Sorry I interrupted but I sensed danger for the nice young man and wanted to share a real story.. I will butt out now..clancey

No need to apologize at all warning of potential dangers is always a good idea. The situation being discussed is very different from yours though.

 

[DeadTreeBurner]

Passing inspection does not mean it is actually to code it just means it passed inspection. And yes most inspectors know very little about chimneys. They miss severe problems all the time. A bare stainless liner in a noncompliant chimney is certainly safer but testing shows it still is not safe.

Interesting, crazy world we live in, makes one wonder what the point of being inspected was - I thought they checked for compliance with code for the various parts of the home. Guess I'm not surprised though.
Not to argue, I'd like to see that test data and see what their definition of safe is. No doubt it gives an extra margin of safety though.

 

[tabner]

Just wanted to follow up since everyone was nice enough to share advice, and someday someone else may read this thread for education.
Successfully put a bare 6" liner down yesterday! Interestingly I tried with a pulling cone first (one person on roof and one down below), and it got stuck. We suspected it was the tension bolt/band on the pulling cone that was getting stuck so we removed it, and I was able to get the whole liner down from the top without the cone. Everytime it stuck I just spun and pushed. Only took about 5 mins to go all 26 feet.
The tee was a real pain. Because it's wider than the liner I didn't wanna risk feeding it down. I put it in the clean out door and used a string to pull it up to the crock/thimble hole. There was some crap in the way I had to reach in the crock and cut out just below, spent some time wiggling everything around, and had to fish the tension band on the snout around the back of the tee, since the tee was actually too wide to slide up the chimney far enough to get the snout band below it. Anyways, in the end I got everything fully seated and well tightened. Cut the snout off a couple inches inside the masonry and crimped the end, jammed my insulated wall thimble over the crimp and screwed tight to the chimney with tapcons, per the instructions. Just gotta come back with some high temp silicone around the collar (somewhat irrelevant since my liner to thimble is a fully enclosed system now, but just wanna be extra thorough).
The two piece chimney cap system went together great. Overall really happy with this Rockford chimney liner customizable system. And super happy I did the research here and took the time to do it. Definitely feel a lot safer. I didn't take any pictures during the install, so apologies for that, but here's some pics of the small amount you can see now that it's complete.

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the update. Next comes the stove!

 

[clancey]

You sure did a lot of wonderful "hard" work and like the former poster said--next the stove..lol enjoy..clancey