trouble shoot a gas stove

[lenlori2.1]

We bought it last year and had installed. Last night after taping around on the pilot and thermocouple while the gas was turned off I turned it on. It has been running for a couple hours no problems. The pilot always lights. Sometimes it will light and go for about five minutes, you will here a click, and then the pilot will go out. I will wait 60 seconds relight the pilot and it will go for five to ten more minutes. RIght now it has been going for an hour. And everything is ducky.

If I open the glass the flames are certainly more yellow/orange but not a whole lot. When I close the glass the go completely blue or even transparent. I really, really want yellow flames. Maybe I am not suppose to get yellow flames?

The fireplace is a Majestic Vermont 36BDVR. It is vented out of the back...three to four feet max right out hte side of the house. It doesn't go straight back becuase it is a corner unit so it has to have a 45 degree on it. But it appears that it is simply a vent pipe that goes out side.

Its natural gas. I can't post a picture of the outside vent....but outside of the house is a box with a chicken wire type grate over it.

Thanks for your help!

 

[fastrac]

So now we are getting somewhere

What you are describing is ghosting,, I would not use it for now.

I am going to see if I can down load a manual on it to read, I will get back to you shortly

But I still want to understand 100%

Is this a new problem with the unit?

Have you burned it before and the flames were more orange and you were happy with it last year?

Or is this the first time you are using it.

ghosting means your flames are lifting off of the burners and just kinda hovering over them like a ghost would

I am also so what concerned with your descrition of your vent termination I will see if I can dig up a photo of what it should look like

 

[GVA]

We bought it last year and had installed. Last night after taping around on the pilot and thermocouple while the gas was turned off I turned it on. It has been running for a couple hours no problems. The pilot always lights. Sometimes it will light and go for about five minutes, you will here a click, and then the pilot will go out. I will wait 60 seconds relight the pilot and it will go for five to ten more minutes. RIght now it has been going for an hour. And everything is ducky.

If I open the glass the flames are certainly more yellow/orange but not a whole lot. When I close the glass the go completely blue or even transparent. I really, really want yellow flames. Maybe I am not suppose to get yellow flames?

The fireplace is a Majestic Vermont 36BDVR. It is vented out of the back...three to four feet max right out hte side of the house. It doesn't go straight back becuase it is a corner unit so it has to have a 45 degree on it. But it appears that it is simply a vent pipe that goes out side.

Its natural gas. I can't post a picture of the outside vent....but outside of the house is a box with a chicken wire type grate over it.

Thanks for your help!

Where are you located elevation wise I'm no expert of gas fireplaces but, industrial heaters I work on quite a bit. Industrial heaters the flames are blue like a gas cooktop these are for heat only and not ambiance, I would say that if you open the door and you have yellow flame but when closed you get blue it is an air mixture problem...... The gas valve sounds like the other problem (to me) for the unit shutting down. Residential furnaces tend to have most of the electronics on the gas valve it self while industrial tend to have a separate control module in addition to the gas valve. I had the same problem with my NG furnace 3 years ago where the pilot was beautiful hitting the t/c just right but then after about 5 minutes it would just shut off...... I can't tell you exactly what's wrong here just some ideas The licensed professional that came out to my house replaced the gas valve and the problem was solved.
To me industrial is easier than residential and If I don't know what is going on I'll call a Pro...
And I've reread the posts a couple of times and MSG is right on target with his post............we can only assume info if we never get it after repeated questions.. Maybe you should go have a beer or three and PM MSG with an apology, He's a very knowlegable person.

 

[fastrac]

[quote author="GVA" date="1161478024

Where are you located elevation wise I'm no expert of gas fireplaces but, industrial heaters I work on quite a bit. Industrial heaters the flames are blue like a gas cooktop these are for heat only and not ambiance, I would say that if you open the door and you have yellow flame but when closed you get blue it is an air mixture problem...... The gas valve sounds like the other problem (to me) for the unit shutting down. Residential furnaces tend to have most of the electronics on the gas valve it self while industrial tend to have a separate control module in addition to the gas valve. I had the same problem with my NG furnace 3 years ago where the pilot was beautiful hitting the t/c just right but then after about 5 minutes it would just shut off...... I can't tell you exactly what's wrong here just some ideas The licensed professional that came out to my house replaced the gas valve and the problem was solved.
To me industrial is easier than residential and If I don't know what is going on I'll call a Pro...
And I've reread the posts a couple of times and MSG is right on target with his post............we can only assume info if we never get it after repeated questions.. Maybe you should go have a beer or three and PM MSG with an apology, He's a very knowlegable person.[/quote]

These direct vent units are a balanced flue system, They use out side air for combustion,

His pilot is doing what its supposed to do, shut off the unit when it doesn't sense a flame on the pilot, if he took a video of it we would see the flame lifting off of the pilot assemble just enough to allow the pilot to be cool enough to shut off the unit.

We just have to figure out why its ghosting could be as simple as the flu is blocked and re-circulating flue gases

 

[GVA]

That's fine......... I just have not heard him say that the pilot is ghosting only that his stove makes a click and the pilot goes out.
I will just read this post from here on out guy's good luck
:zip: :zip: :zip:

 

[webbie]

Yeah, we know a lot more now, but will never be able to fix from afar. Certainly could be pilot flame adjustment only - thermocouple could have slightly degraded or sooted.....or, the pilot hood is hitting the TC wrong......and on and on.

 

[fastrac]

That's fine......... I just have not heard him say that the pilot is ghosting only that his stove makes a click and the pilot goes out.
I will just read this post from here on out guy's good luck
:zip: :zip: :zip:

This is where I am reading into his description as "ghosting"

If I open the glass the flames are certainly more yellow/orange but not a whole lot. When I close the glass the go completely blue or even transparent. I

 

[GVA]

"pilot light ghosting" :zip:
sorry......... damn there I go again :zip: :zip:

 

[lenlori2.1]

Okay so I have looked at the manual again and also went on line. There is no where in the book or online that shows an air shutter for this Majestic 36bdvr. So thats probably the reason I don't know where its at. I just can't get anything but a blue flame, as best described, like you see on a gas stove when your burner is on....

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Look on page 31, top left photo.
(broken link removed to http://www.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/2006/20000584_DVBR-5031.pdf)

 

[fastrac]

Okay so I have looked at the manual again and also went on line. There is no where in the book or online that shows an air shutter for this Majestic 36bdvr. So thats probably the reason I don't know where its at. I just can't get anything but a blue flame, as best described, like you see on a gas stove when your burner is on....

I am trying to help you

Has it always been a problem or is it something new

I can see why you had problems with other people trying to help you

Have you read my other answers to you

 

[GVA]

Okay so I have looked at the manual again and also went on line. There is no where in the book or online that shows an air shutter for this Majestic 36bdvr. So thats probably the reason I don't know where its at. I just can't get anything but a blue flame, as best described, like you see on a gas stove when your burner is on....

I am trying to help you

Has it always been a problem or is it something new

I can see why you had problems with other people trying to help you

Have you read my other answers to you

Well?
I have to break my silence here but only for a second.... It's obvious your dealer is not such a good one how do we know that he used the correct pipe for direct vent?
Or even if he ran it correctly.
As Fastrac said is this a new problem or has it been..... excuse me here..........BLUE for you since the install? If the direct vent pipe is not correct you can be starving your unit of combustion air.... That is all :zip:

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

If it was starving it would be yellow. The air shutter needs adjustment, but thats not the problem. I think the problem is venting. He mentioned a "ton of heat" coming out of the unit. A 24,000 btu fireplace with tempered glass should not crank that much heat. I think his venting is wacked. I didnt look at the venting chart but i bet he is boderline. Expecially if he doenst have the proper rise.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

There you have it, he says "3-4' max out of the back with a 45* elbow" the manual on page thirteen states no more the 20" with a 45*. There lays the problem. Its overheating. I have asked severl times who installed it, so now that becomes a very important question,

 

[fastrac]

There you have it, he says "3-4' max out of the back with a 45* elbow" the manual on page thirteen states no more the 20" with a 45*. There lays the problem. Its overheating. I have asked severl times who installed it, so now that becomes a very important question,

Excellent diagnosis

All we need is the length of the wall that the unit is set in and with a little algebra we can actually determine his vent length

If his wall is longer then 65" he is most likely out of spec, unless the pro who installed it converted it to a top vent and gave it a head of 6' to 7' then he could actually of side wall vented up to 8' away

It would also answer my question of has it ever worked correct and the answer would be no


So the question still is

Did it ever work correct?

How long is the face of the wall the unit is installed in


Ghosting caused by improper venting is very dangerous, especially if the unit goes out and you decide to re-lite the unit before the gas dissipates in the unit.

 

[GVA]

Nice job guy's on such little info, now it's late so get some rest, it's football season ya know. some good games lined up tomorrow.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Im not totally convinced he realy has that much horizontal. I hope im wrong, there is obviously no easy fix it thats the case. Its more likely that he has a level, or downslope, or he lives in altitude, they never work up here vented that way even if the book says it will. I would guess that it has never worked right, nothing will chage the flames from yellow to blue besides something mechanical. There is WAY more to this story then we know. I want to know who installed it.

 

[GVA]

ok msg you can stay up a couple more hours but I'm est so I need some rest. ;-P
Agreed that more info is still needed I've reread this thread several times and think he has numerous issues here.
oooops :zip:

 

[lenlori2.1]

I apologize but I don't how many times to say that it has burned really blue since the day it was installed. It was a professional from the Michigan area. The vent comes out of the top of the fireplace. Does a 45 and goes out to the side of my house. It's really that simple. There isn't a knob on the left of the burner (as I look at it) that will allow the adjust ment of any air...I guess I will just let it be because I can't explain it any better. The flames are blue. Period. Translucent even maybe. The piping if you will goes from the top of the firebox, about three feet max to the side of the house. Remember I said earlier its a corner fireplace. I can tap on the burner with a screwdriver and i get the nice yellow flames...Thanks for all of your helps, our tigers lost and I will chalk this one as well up as a loss.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Have you called the pro from michigan? THIS IS A INSTALL PROBLEM.

There is a venturi on the left side of the burner, you have to remove the burner to see it.

Translucent blue could would be consiederd ghosting possibly.

In a typical corner install, the venting would go about 18" max

If you have three feet, you have a problem

You can tap on any burner and get a yellow flame. Every single one of them does that. Thats no suprise. Next time your grilling, bang on your gas grill and see.

Yea, chalk it up as a loss unless your willing to call someone to come look at it. You have recieved many warnings here about ghosting. Your venting seems exceptionaly long. Did a inspector sign of on this?

I can see why you think every one you call is giving you a hard time, you not too good at listening.

We tried to help. People assume that these are simple devices, there not. There complicated appliances, that take a certain amount of expertise to trouble shoot and fix. Yours never worked right from the begining, what does that tell you? If it were my house, i would be doing some math like the above posters mentioned, or at least give us the total wall deminsion of the front, so we can figure out how much horizontal you have. You have to understand that this poses a serious problem. 24,000 btu tempered glass fireplaces are not supposed to put out major heat. If it is thats a tell tale sign that somethings wrong. Expecially if its shutting down. Im done here. I and the others have done what we can do. Tapping on the pilot assembly is not going to fix it. If you cant find the air shutter you have no business working on this fireplace, expecially when there is a diagram where its located. For your saftey, please call a pro to come in, no matter what your differences are with them. This is NOT a DIY project.

 

[fastrac]

I apologize but I don't how many times to say that it has burned really blue since the day it was installed. It was a professional from the Michigan area. The vent comes out of the top of the fireplace. Does a 45 and goes out to the side of my house. It's really that simple. There isn't a knob on the left of the burner (as I look at it) that will allow the adjust ment of any air...I guess I will just let it be because I can't explain it any better. The flames are blue. Period. Translucent even maybe. The piping if you will goes from the top of the firebox, about three feet max to the side of the house. Remember I said earlier its a corner fireplace. I can tap on the burner with a screwdriver and i get the nice yellow flames...Thanks for all of your helps, our tigers lost and I will chalk this one as well up as a loss.

Sorry but this is the first time I actually read that its been blue since it was installed

How long is the face of the wall that its installed in. You did say it was a corner installation

Look in the manual at page 4 the diagram in the upper left corner of the page, Is this how your unit is installed, the diagram pictured show a 45 off of the rear of the unit and then straight out the wall. The note on page 13 explains it can only be a total 20" with a rear vent unit with one 45

If your wall is longer then 65" your defiantly out of spec and this is the problem with your unit.

the flue system is stalling and causing your problem

As MSG stated the only way to correct this is mecanicly meaning you need to correct the flue problem

You cannot fix this problem by adjusting the air shudder or gas pressure.

This unit is dangerous and should not be used if the flue is out of spec as we think it is

If you tell me the wall lenght I can calculate how long your flue actually is

 

[buildafire]

I apologize but I don’t how many times to say that it has burned really blue since the day it was installed. It was a professional from the Michigan area. The vent comes out of the top of the fireplace. Does a 45 and goes out to the side of my house. It’s really that simple.

I think what he meant to say is that the pipe comes off the top of the unit and has a 90 on it and the pipe exits the side of his house at a 45 degree angle to the fireplace. Now I don't think there is a 45 in the system..

You can't quit now lenf, this is just getting good! Hang in there...

 

[lenlori2.1]

Its a corner unit on a wall that is 7' x 7'....Its vented out of the back of the fireplace, not on top; attached to a 45 and vented out of the back the house. The pipe from the back of the fireplace to the outside is approximately 25"....

There is not a visible air shutter.

If I leave the glass cracked an inch I get beautiful yellow flames. If I close it the flames immediately go transparent. Is there any known way to adjust the air?

THanks.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I feel like a broken record.

You are out of the venting window. You can read for your self in the link i posted. The manual tells you no more then 20 ". Its in the manual beacuse its important. How many other ways can i say it. Its never going to work properly. Never Never Never.

If you burn it with the glass cracked you will fry the controls.

Once again, and the last time the airshutter is accesed by removing the burner.

 

[fastrac]

Lenf

As small a differance as it may seam, I am pretty sure MSG has hit the nail on the head, Your problem is a venting problem. the solutin is to open up the wall ,

covert it to a top vent,raise the vent as high up as you can with a 90 on it being used as a swing joint and you can vent it horizontally, Floow that chart in the owners manual.




Best of luck with it Sir