Too many trees getting hung up

[SpaceBus]

Yeah around these parts those would be sawlogs.
The stuff I cut is usually smaller, uglier, and harder to split.

At my place if it's bigger than 6" on the small end I make it into a 4x4.

 

[DonTee]

My dads been bugging me to cut some small larch to saw into 4x4’s for dock posts. He had the same idea, trees just big enough to get the post from.

I want a sawmill really bad. Just gotta talk the wife into it. I bought a new woodstove this year, so maybe next year. Right now I'm relying on the Amish and another guy I know with a portable mill to saw up my logs. Still much cheaper than store bought lumber, but not as convenient as having my own mill.

@SpaceBus
What kind of mill do you have? Something like a wood mizer?

 

[DonTee]

There’s a guy down the road from me that had some logging done this spring. They took out everything worth anything on his property. Just some small trees left. But the loggers left all the tops in the woods.

It would be nice if someone came through and cut up the tops for firewood. It would look nicer for sure, and it would be a bit of firewood for someone who wanted to work for it a little. Plus that limb wood dries pretty fast.

 

[SpaceBus]

My dads been bugging me to cut some small larch to saw into 4x4’s for dock posts. He had the same idea, trees just big enough to get the post from.

I want a sawmill really bad. Just gotta talk the wife into it. I bought a new woodstove this year, so maybe next year. Right now I'm relying on the Amish and another guy I know with a portable mill to saw up my logs. Still much cheaper than store bought lumber, but not as convenient as having my own mill.

@SpaceBus
What kind of mill do you have? Something like a wood mizer?

I have a Logosol F2+ (6 meters) and a Husky 395xp for a powerhead. Not as fast as a band mill, but faster than an alaskan. I could do a few hundred board feet per day with a helper if it's all softwood. The hardest wood I've milled so far is tamarack (Eastern Larch), but mostly spruce and fir. Sometimes I wish I had gotten a Chinese made bandsaw mill, but I wanted something with good QC but couldn't justify a US made band mill. I will say that saw chain is way easier to sharpen and I can make nearly finish quality lumber that is +/- 1/32" when everything is set up well. The Logosol already paid for itself and it's nice to be able to cut 18' long beams/boards. However, a 18+" diameter 18' log really taxes my tractor, so I don't usually cut anything that long.

With a 16" bar fitted to the 395xp I can make 4x4's with some speed. I also use .050" 3/8lp chain to get 1/4" wide kerf. Not as good as 1/8" on a band mill, but I use the sawdust so I don't mind.

 

[Nealm66]

What kind of wood is that ashful?

 

[Ashful]

What kind of wood is that ashful?

Just went back and looked at the photos. I believe most were white oak, except the photo of several on the trailer, which were hickory. There's also a few ash scattered in the photo of the field, but most of these photos were taken before EAB really hit us hard.

 

[DonTee]

Wish I had white oak here. All I have is red oak. I’d really like to have both. I just need to find someone with a white oak so I can collect the acorns and plant them. I’ve already been playing Donny apple seed with black walnuts.

There are so many cheaper band mills available nowadays. My neighbor has one of the wood mizer copies. I really need to check it out closer and see if something like that is a good option for me. I don’t need anything too fancy. It doesn’t have to come with all the options. I would like a band mill though.

I think I’ll do like the Amish do, buy the mill and use it to cut the lumber for building that will cover it.

 

[SpaceBus]

Wish I had white oak here. All I have is red oak. I’d really like to have both. I just need to find someone with a white oak so I can collect the acorns and plant them. I’ve already been playing Donny apple seed with black walnuts.

There are so many cheaper band mills available nowadays. My neighbor has one of the wood mizer copies. I really need to check it out closer and see if something like that is a good option for me. I don’t need anything too fancy. It doesn’t have to come with all the options. I would like a band mill though.

I think I’ll do like the Amish do, buy the mill and use it to cut the lumber for building that will cover it.

I've been using most of my lumber for chicken housing, garden fences, a small wood shed, and raised garden beds. Even still it has already paid for itself. I've got a small pile of saw logs growing, but most of them are only 8-12" across. Eventually I'll have to buy some logs for specific projects, but still much cheaper than buying lumber.

 

[DonTee]

I’ve been paying the Amish 65 cents a BF for their lumber, but I have a lot of hemlock, larch, pine, and spruce I could cut up myself if I had a mill.

My dad planted about 5 acres of larch when he was a kid here about 70 years ago. I harvested about 10,000 BF of it to build my house. There’s still quite a bit left.

I need a bit of rough lumber for similar projects. I built my shed, woodshed, chicken coop, rabbit hutches, fences etc with rough cut lumber. If I had some more cheap lumber I’d build another woodshed or two.

I’d like to build a pole barn soon. Maybe 32x60. I have to use PT posts in the ground, but I could splice on some hemlock posts after it comes out of the ground.

 

[DonTee]

The Amish most not pay very much for their logs here. They have huge piles they get trucked in. You figure if they’re selling for 65 cents they must be getting it for like half that.

 

[Ashful]

Wish I had white oak here. All I have is red oak. I’d really like to have both. I just need to find someone with a white oak so I can collect the acorns and plant them. I’ve already been playing Donny apple seed with black walnuts.

At least considering the varieties we have here, your effort won't bring you any good white oak in your lifetime, but perhaps your great-grandkids will thank you for it. One large white oak I cut in 2012 was clearly documented to have been an already-mature tree in the 1830's, and there's another slabbed in a local church with rings counted back to before the founding of the church in the 1720's.

What's interesting to me is that I cut enough trees from just four properties in close proximity, that I've noticed how a single species can really stand out in one location, but be nearly absent in another just a few miles away. One lot where I cut is completely dominated by hickory. But I live just 2 miles away from that lot, and have no mature hickory at all, on my property. We get hickory saplings, but they always disappear (deer damage?) before reaching maturity. Conversely, my yard is almost entirely walnut, to the point where you'd almost think it's the only thing that will grow around here. But the property behind me is dominated by ash and cedar, with only a few walnut trees. The 32 acre lot where most of my wood was taken 2011 until 2019 had an unusually high fraction of white oak, but also had a noticeable amount of sassafras. These are all lots with what would outwardly appear to be similar conditions for light, drainage, soil, but there must be enough small differences for local factors to favor one species over another.

 

[SpaceBus]

The Amish most not pay very much for their logs here. They have huge piles they get trucked in. You figure if they’re selling for 65 cents they must be getting it for like half that.

$0.65/bdft for rough cut used to be EXPENSIVE! Not that long ago you could pay a mobile sawyer to come out and pay $0.40/bdft, at least according to the sawyers I've spoken to. Today the current market price for lumber is right around $0.48/bdft, but that's of course wholesale and not retail pricing.

At least considering the varieties we have here, your effort won't bring you any good white oak in your lifetime, but perhaps your great-grandkids will thank you for it. One large white oak I cut in 2012 was clearly documented to have been an already-mature tree in the 1830's, and there's another slabbed in a local church with rings counted back to before the founding of the church in the 1720's.

What's interesting to me is that I cut enough trees from just four properties in close proximity, that I've noticed how a single species can really stand out in one location, but be nearly absent in another just a few miles away. One lot where I cut is completely dominated by hickory. But I live just 2 miles away from that lot, and have no mature hickory at all, on my property. We get hickory saplings, but they always disappear (deer damage?) before reaching maturity. Conversely, my yard is almost entirely walnut, to the point where you'd almost think it's the only thing that will grow around here. But the property behind me is dominated by ash and cedar, with only a few walnut trees. The 32 acre lot where most of my wood was taken 2011 until 2019 had an unusually high fraction of white oak, but also had a noticeable amount of sassafras. These are all lots with what would outwardly appear to be similar conditions for light, drainage, soil, but there must be enough small differences for local factors to favor one species over another.

Do you have a lot of grey squirrels in your area? Deer will also control a tree species by foraging on the young shoots and leaves. Some birds can control tree species if they have small seeds or berries.

 

[Ashful]

Do you have a lot of grey squirrels in your area? Deer will also control a tree species by foraging on the young shoots and leaves. Some birds can control tree species if they have small seeds or berries.

Yes, lots of grey squirrels. Lots of deer, too. It's a rare day that I don't see ten deer and four times as many grey squirrels in my yard.

 

[DonTee]

When I had the sawyer come out and saw up lumber for my house in 2012 it was 21 cents a BF back then. Not bad at all.

The Amish around here were still charging 45 cents a BF until lumber prices went up after covid. Maybe the price for the logs went up, so they had to raise their prices too.

I have a bunch of deer and critters out here. Not that many grey squirrels, but tons of red squirrels and chipmunks. Oh and also some black squirrels. Same size as the grey except they’re all black.

In regards to planting trees, the property I’m on has been in my family for 150 years. I’m harvesting trees my dad and aunt planted as a kid. I’m hoping the trees I plant will be enjoyed somehow by my kids and grandkids.

Besides planting the larch, my dad and aunt planted a bunch of spruce that my dad planned to harvest as Christmas trees. That never happened, but the trees are still here. Nowadays he wishes he planted all larch. I do too.

 

[Nealm66]

I’m going to stop by woodmizer this weekend on my way to bend Oregon. Guess they’re 12 to 16 months out on a mill but maybe things will die off and some that got ordered will fall through. Researching the best my crappy internet skills allow on what mill to buy and go back and forth on going all in, or just dip my feet in it. I’ve also cut a lot with my chainsaw sawmill and really enjoy making boards. No market for oak around here. Tough to kiln dry compared to the soft woods. I bet that stuff is like a rock when it’s dry

 

[SpaceBus]

Yes, lots of grey squirrels. Lots of deer, too. It's a rare day that I don't see ten deer and four times as many grey squirrels in my yard.

Greys are pretty territorial and will have favored trees. I'd guess between them and the deer they have made their own managed food forests. This is commonly observed behavior in both species. There's a logging trail in the woods in my neighbor's lot that has been abandoned for over 60 years. It's still kept clear by a moose that eats all the fir and spruce seedlings. The logging trails make perfect buffets for moose, and deer if there's alder, birch, etc on the sides during spring.

 

[SpaceBus]

When I had the sawyer come out and saw up lumber for my house in 2012 it was 21 cents a BF back then. Not bad at all.

The Amish around here were still charging 45 cents a BF until lumber prices went up after covid. Maybe the price for the logs went up, so they had to raise their prices too.

I have a bunch of deer and critters out here. Not that many grey squirrels, but tons of red squirrels and chipmunks. Oh and also some black squirrels. Same size as the grey except they’re all black.

In regards to planting trees, the property I’m on has been in my family for 150 years. I’m harvesting trees my dad and aunt planted as a kid. I’m hoping the trees I plant will be enjoyed somehow by my kids and grandkids.

Besides planting the larch, my dad and aunt planted a bunch of spruce that my dad planned to harvest as Christmas trees. That never happened, but the trees are still here. Nowadays he wishes he planted all larch. I do too.

The black squirrels are melanistic grey squirrels, kind of like a panther and jaguar are the same animal. Pretty cool that you have a large population of them, it means they have been established for some time.
I wish we had more tamaracks. Only a handful have been big enough to cut into boards and I try to only cut them down if they are dying. Plenty are popping up to replace them, which is nice.

 

[qwee]

I had a 9 cord permit for wood up in the forest. I had 1.5 cords worth of tags left - my last trip (1.5 would be a big load for me). I knew of a tree - a dead Lodgepole pine. But there was a problem. A large living Quaking Aspen had uprooted and was now leaning against the dead standing pine (~60 degree angle). Both were big trees (not huge). Moreover the aspen was leaning against the pine in the opposite direction I wanted to fell it. If I cut the pine that aspen is coming down, too. Where? Who knows? This could get dangerous. The aspen needs to come down first.

I noticed another smaller dead pine staggered to the right about 15 feet away from the large pine. I decide to take it too. If I could get the aspen to fall off of the large pine, I bet it would stumble right into this smaller pine and get hung up again. What to do? My plan - first cut the small pine, next the aspen, and finally the target tree, the big pine. Time consuming, yes. I don't know what that leaner is going to do if I cut my target tree first, and I don't know what happens to the target tree with that leaner pushing on it. If it goes in the wrong direction I have tripled my work load (I'm trying to drop the pines toward the dirt road).

So, I drop the little pine (20") base. It goes where I want it to go - towards the road. These trees are really dry. The tops are full of small branches and pine cones. The tree goes down - thump! The top branches shatter into bits and pieces laying a 2 inch layer of twigs and cones across the road. Now I can try to get the large aspen to roll off to the right of the big pine. I'm not suppose to cut living trees. But this storm-falling aspen was saved from death by getting caught in the pine. It's a goner.

I start by making the uncomfortable 4' up the trunk diagonal cut on the leaner. As the cuts are made, this aspen tree just keeps plopping down without falling. On the second or third chunk cut I get sloppy and pin my chainsaw bar. I go back to the truck and grab another saw. I get back to the aspen, and try to fire up the Dolmar. No go. I check for fuel - no fuel. Back to the truck. On the way, it occurs to me that maybe I could just use a strap and tug the bottom of the aspen loose so it will fall. Okay, I'll try this.

After several pulls with the truck, I eventually get the aspen to fall. It goes to the right and falls right on top of the downed small pine. I think, 'I'll take some of that aspen if I need extra wood to reach the 1.5 cord limit.' (Little did I know that I wouldn't even be able to harvest all of the small pine much less the aspen). Next, I drop the large pine. I'm off. I was trying to send it towards the road but not across the road - but I'm 30 degrees off and it falls on the road across the top of the other small pine - thump! Now there is a 4" layer of twigs and cones across the road.

I buck up the large pine. Most of the rounds are big. I can see I need to do a better job of estimating the cordage in a tree. This one tree pretty much fills my trailer (6.5' x 11') with stacked rounds two high (32"). I'm use to smaller trees. Darn, I didn't realize there was that much wood in that big pine - it didn't look that big to me.

After a few hours I'm exhausted rolling and loading these big rounds - at least they are dry. I cut the top half of the small pine and load some into the pickup bed. I have to get it off of the road. And, I cut six 32 inchers to use as a wall across the back of the trailer ( to pin the big rounds in). I hope this works. The 2 wheel drive Tundra slowly crawls up the hill of this dirt road and makes it to the main gravel road. I stop and recheck the load - my strapped in 32 inchers appear to be staying in place.

It's a heavy load. So I go 25 mph down the mountain. At some point I smell hot brakes. I slow down and avoid using the brakes. I take the back roads for 35 miles - slow and steady. I get home - all of the wood is still there - whew, made it. I'm now done with wood gathering in the forest, at least for this year. I realize I need to get and bring a rake next time. That 4 inch layer of twigs and cones needs to be raked to the side of the road (fire hazard), oops. I can hear the foresters in my head cussing when they have to do this. Next year....

 

[DonTee]

I’ve been using the Dutchman notch on bigger ash. I think thats what it’s called. It’s where you make a horizontal notch cut, then another horizontal cut above it, and then connect them with a vertical cut at the back of the notch. Oh and on the bottom cut you make a little ramp down at the end. Anyways, it seems like with the tree kind of jumping off the stump, it has more momentum and doesn’t get hung up as easily.

A lot of the wood is firewood, but I’ve been getting some nice sawlogs as well. Which brings me to my next question. I’ve been using this online board foot calculator on wood web. They list 3 different options for “log scale”. The options are
Doyle
International
Scribner

Do you guys have any idea which one I should be using? For instance, if I put in a log that’s 14” diameter and 8’ long, it gives me these BF numbers

Doyle= 50BF
International= 65BF
Scribner= 60BF

I’m not sure if one system optimizes the log for the least amount of waste or what. Basically when I have the Amish guy saw these up, it’s going to be whatever widths he can get in 2” increments

 

[DonTee]

Seems like the most popular scale is the Doyle. At least that’s the one I see referenced most often.

 

[Nealm66]

We use scribner here for almost everything except pulp ( usually by the ton or kunit). It favors the mills with longer logs with taper and makes it tight with the shorter logs. They actually pay less the for the shorter length stuff. Some of this is because of the container ships ( export) but the local mills are the same. Years ago we cut some taller second growth around 160ish ft and they had us making longer than normal cuts like 48’s and the had us on some other scale that was more fair but I can’t remember what it was called. Poles ( power) are set up different as well as I’ve cut them up to 120’. We called swing cuts a Dutchman. Could just be local slang though. Basically any shallow undercut with a small face in the front will make them jump but you might want to make some side cuts to help avoid barber chairs cuting vertical can make the wood pull harder and can help swing side leaners or swing cuts( Dutchman’s?)

 

[DonTee]

Ok thanks. Maybe I’ll use the smaller number just to be safe. I don’t want to cut too little. I need around 1200 board feet, but 1500 would be better.

It was my understanding that the Dutchman is the notch cut, and the swinging Dutchman is that notch cut used with angled back cuts (triangle) to make the tree swing around. But my knowledge is just internet knowledge, so I’ll just throw that out there

This is the notch I’m using. Sometimes I do the little angled part at the bottom and sometimes not.

 

[SpaceBus]

Ok thanks. Maybe I’ll use the smaller number just to be safe. I don’t want to cut too little. I need around 1200 board feet, but 1500 would be better.

It was my understanding that the Dutchman is the notch cut, and the swinging Dutchman is that notch cut used with angled back cuts (triangle) to make the tree swing around. But my knowledge is just internet knowledge, so I’ll just throw that out there

This is the notch I’m using. Sometimes I do the little angled part at the bottom and sometimes not.

View attachment 298192

Do you use a normal back cut to fell the tree? I may try something like this when I know I'll have a hard time and don't feel like using the winch.

 

[DonTee]

Yes, normal back cut.

 

[SpaceBus]

Yes, normal back cut.

How high? Level with the bottom of the notch, middle, top, or?