To OAK or not to OAK...that is the question...

[Justin M]

Most dealers are not stove enthusiasts like us and have never heard of Hearth.com. They know that the vast majority of stoves will run fine and safely without an OAK and either don't know or don't care about the other benefits of an OAK.

 

[DamienBricka]

Is it possible to add an OAK on a CFM-FM240007 wood stove. Today it has been cold in Pittsburgh and I could feel cold air drafts in the house.

 

[Harvey Schneider]

Is it possible to add an OAK on a CFM-FM240007 wood stove. Today it has been cold in Pittsburgh and I could feel cold air drafts in the house.

This is the wrong forum for that (just kidding). I expect that if the stove has a port that can be attached to tubing, an OAK can be added.

 

[DamienBricka]

Sorry I could not find any port to attach anything. So I guess the answer is no for me. Darn..............

 

[ZBrooks]

I was just going to say, why is it that nearly every post says the dealer said an OAK is not worth it? I got one because by code it had to be done. Is it too much work for the money you get paid or what? There has to be some explanation because when you read this forum almost every poster says the dealer said I didn't need it.

Add to this the fact that the Harman manual strongly recommends installing an OAK.

 

[Madcodger]

It's funny, I have never heard anybody say that their dealer recommended installing an OAK.

So a couple of stories to illustrate the point... My father was a plumber, and was 54 years old when I was born, retiring at 62. So I had the benefit of spending lots of my childhood with him, during which he sometimes volunteered his time on worthwhile building repair projects, often helping people recommended by our church as needing help. He was also an incredible craftsman. I remember counless times when someone in the trades would get stuck on something and stop by our house for a lesson and consult from my father, who was always a fan of learning about your trade / craft. So even after he retired he often knew more about buildings and new materials than those still working, because he had a passion for his craft.

Years later my wife and I owned a home repair company that did some light remodeling. I was more of an investor and manager than a worker, but having grown up in the trades and having rebuilt several homes myself I've always kept somewhat up to date on building science and materials. So I was always amazed at just how little most "contractors" - people who worked in the trades every day, earning their living - knew about new materials, code changes, etc. They just hadn't bothered to learn. And when offered the opportunity, most just "couldn't find the time" for a class, or seminar, or certification even when it was offered for free and might have earned them more money over time. They essentially had to be forced to learn. In fact, our frustration with finding high quality craftsmen who had a passion for their trade/craft contributed to our decision to eventually sell the company. It was just increasingly difficult to find these folks, and we had other ways to spend our time and earn a living.

My point is that sadly, most people don't work in a field for which they have a true passion. They know enough not to cause an easily identified problem, but not enough to optimize the situation for their customers. My personal exprience has been that stove dealers are the same way. There are great ones, but they are rare. Most know less about building science and sometimes their own products than a passionate amateur, which is the foundation of this board. So when one does find a truly great dealer: Strike up a relationship, pay their higher fees for service, and be glad you're able to do so. Otherwise, LEARN to protect yourself and optimize your situation.

 

[Harvey Schneider]

So a couple of stories to illustrate the point... My father was a plumber, and was 54 years old when I was born, retiring at 62. So I had the benefit of spending lots of my childhood with him, during which he sometimes volunteered his time on worthwhile building repair projects, often helping people recommended by our church as needing help. He was also an incredible craftsman. I remember counless times when someone in the trades would get stuck on something and stop by our house for a lesson and consult from my father, who was always a fan of learning about your trade / craft. So even after he retired he often knew more about buildings and new materials than those still working, because he had a passion for his craft.

Years later my wife and I owned a home repair company that did some light remodeling. I was more of an investor and manager than a worker, but having grown up in the trades and having rebuilt several homes myself I've always kept somewhat up to date on building science and materials. So I was always amazed at just how little most "contractors" - people who worked in the trades every day, earning their living - knew about new materials, code changes, etc. They just hadn't bothered to learn. And when offered the opportunity, most just "couldn't find the time" for a class, or seminar, or certification even when it was offered for free and might have earned them more money over time. They essentially had to be forced to learn. In fact, our frustration with finding high quality craftsmen who had a passion for their trade/craft contributed to our decision to eventually sell the company. It was just increasingly difficult to find these folks, and we had other ways to spend our time and earn a living.

My point is that sadly, most people don't work in a field for which they have a true passion. They know enough not to cause an easily identified problem, but not enough to optimize the situation for their customers. My personal exprience has been that stove dealers are the same way. There are great ones, but they are rare. Most know less about building science and sometimes their own products than a passionate amateur, which is the foundation of this board. So when one does find a truly great dealer: Strike up a relationship, pay their higher fees for service, and be glad you're able to do so. Otherwise, LEARN to protect yourself and optimize your situation.

At the risk of being reprimanded by the moderators, I think that you are unrealistically generous to the people in the building trade.
I know that much of the building trade runs on thin margins, but I get tired of always finding that they cut corners in unacceptable ways. The trouble I have is that many tradesman and contractors feel that it is necessary and acceptable to lie to the customer in order to optimize their profit on a job.

 

[Lake Girl]

Good and bad found in most occupations ... Mike Holmes would be out of a couple of TV shows (in Canada) if everyone was competent and diligent in home construction I get to learn more due to other people's construction woes. Keeps me aware of new products on the market too.

Dealers not wanting to install an OAK could be for several reasons ... lack of knowledge, low profit margin on install, extra sq. ft. required at shop due to extra materials ... combination of all three?

If you find the prize winning dealer ... keep him

 

[St_Earl]

Sorry I could not find any port to attach anything. So I guess the answer is no for me. Darn..............

try the wood burning forum on this site. : )

 

[newbieinCT]

No there is no "Pellet Stove for Dummies" but I may refer you to google eBooks "Principles of Home Inspection & Wood Heating" by Carson Duntop Page117 Chapter 6 Wood Stove Section 6.9 Pellet stoves. Unfortunately the web preview does not show all the pages!

http://books.google.com/books?id=JFX3P-XuNagC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Principles of Home Inspection & Wood Heating&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8UK6UsbgK-ezsQS6yID4Bw&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Principles of Home Inspection & Wood Heating&f=false


See pellet stove diagram below from eBook link above! Enjoy

Here is a good book too!
Wood Pellet Heating Systems: The Earthscan Expert Handbook on Planning ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=bdPKLH-QCWEC&pg=PT32&dq=pellet stoves&hl=en&sa=X&ei=v-u6UoD-GO2_sQTM1oDoCA&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=pellet stoves&f=false

Click pic to Enlarge:

Thank you!! Seems like everything we are getting into has a huge learning curve (pellet stoves, insulation, electric). We can handle the basics around the house - but we are definitely first time home owners. The ebook and the handbook are going to be good reading...even if my family makes fun of me
I was blabbering on to my sisters about stoves and insulation all during Christmas dinner...had to shut myself up before they fell into a coma from boredom. One day, they will get a pellet stove...then they will understand

 

[newbieinCT]

I have two stoves. One has an OAK, and the other was installed while I was out of town, and I foolishly allowed it to be installed without one (a dealer recommendation there, as well, which I can tell you often means little). Both stoves burn well. But the one without an OAK creates drafts near the floor (none with the OAK stove) and when we run the non-OAK stove the humidity in the house plummets (western CT probably has far greater problems with dry indoor air in cold weather than dampness).

I still use that non-OAK stove, but this is the LAST season without nm OAK on it (this is also the first!). I may even address that this season, depending on weather. After learning more and experiencing it first-hand, I've become an OAK-zealot. Take it from someone who has direct experience with both and avoid a mistake you will regret (I sure do). You DEFINITELY want an OAK.

Just placed the order...we are getting the OAK. Thanks for the advice...it's great to hear real world examples of why we want the OAK to wrap my brain around everything

 

[newbieinCT]

Some of them likely have that and more.


To the OP,

Sure looks to me like a fairly straight forward setup does your dealer actually have copies of those pictures to go by?

Pictures are worth many thousands of words and the reason we like them on this forum.

Don't try to over analyze things, if you are not going to do your own service work there is only one question you need to get answered and then you can take it from there.

That question is how reliable are the dealers in your area and you need to talk to their customers to find that out. You can get the worlds best stove but if the dealer isn't reliable you have purchased a boat anchor.

Thanks, Smokey

I tend to overcomplicate things because we have come across quiet a few contractors since we got our house a few months ago that haven't done what they claimed they would or could. I did a lot of research to find them and they were just "eh". After the last bad expereince with a tree guy, I know I'm going a bit overboard but I want to understand what we are getting into, this is a huge investiment for us. I've heard good and bad about the dealer - much more good than bad. In the end, I think we are going to be okay. You guys have all given me so much background information that I know what to ask and I was able to rule out a stove shop I thought wasn't right for us. Plus, I like to support local small town shops instead of big name flashy stoes. This guy is opinionated but so far, has had not given me any trouble about the stove and has let us make our decisions without pushing us one way or another. That's big points in my book - if he was trying to sway or double talk me, I'd have an issue.

From what I can see, the install price is going to be a bit high but I'd rather pay a little more for the install and get a good relationship with the dealer. We will be buying another stove in a few years, so he will be a good resource.

The dealer actually came to my house on his day off to check out the install location. He took measurements and made notes. Today, I called and confirmed pricing and put a deposit down. We are going to remove the wood stove and the venting. He asked us to send him pictures of the thimble once we take the indoor black pipe off. Just so he can see if there is anything else he couldn't see during his site visit. He seemed pretty confident it was a straight forward install. I asked if we needed to do anything else prior to install and he said they would take care of all of it.

Fingers crossed the install goes this smoothly. Thanks for your help!!

 

[Madcodger]

Just placed the order...we are getting the OAK. Thanks for the advice...it's great to hear real world examples of why we want the OAK to wrap my brain around everything

Enjoy! Great way to provide comfort over a surprisingly large area, and a purchase I think you'll value for many years. And we look forward to your contributions here as you move out of "newbie" stage.

 

[newbieinCT]

Enjoy! Great way to provide comfort over a surprisingly large area, and a purchase I think you'll value for many years. And we look forward to your contributions here as you move out of "newbie" stage.

Thanks! Im excited about it..especially on a cold morning like this one. We are freezing here! I know the stove won't fix everything but it'll help as we wait for the insulation guy to arrive

 

[Lake Girl]

Pics when done

 

[newbieinCT]

Of course

 

[1kzwoman]

Finally decided on the p61a. The dealer does not recommend the OAK. Seems like most on this forum do.
I am planning on getting it...unless I hear otherwise...any thoughts?

We have an old house (original from 1890s, additions in 1980s). Getting whole house air sealing and new insulation next month.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!!
Meg

 

[1kzwoman]

Newbie( former lurker)
I have been researching this too. Found it interesting that Canada had laws requiring OAK but removed requirements when they did further research.

I do not see a major change in my TL200 fire when I open near by window, nor am I having moisture problems inside house. So for now have not installed OAK.

Thank to forum for help with stove issues

How do I start a new thread?? Haven't found anything except replies. Sorry

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Newbie( former lurker)
I have been researching this too. Found it interesting that Canada had laws requiring OAK but removed requirements when they did further research.

I do not see a major change in my TL200 fire when I open near by window, nor am I having moisture problems inside house. So for now have not installed OAK.

Thank to forum for help with stove issues

How do I start a new thread?? Haven't found anything except replies. Sorry

From the forum page near the top right hand side there is a post new thread button.

 

[Lake Girl]

Newbie( former lurker)
I have been researching this too. Found it interesting that Canada had laws requiring OAK but removed requirements when they did further research...
How do I start a new thread?? Haven't found anything except replies. Sorry

What laws were changed in Canada? When? Sites?

For new thread go to main page of the pellet mill and near the top will see "post new thread" button.

Welcome to the forum

 

[1kzwoman]

From the forum page near the top right hand side there is a post new thread button.

Found it! Thanks

 

[1kzwoman]

What laws were changed in Canada? When? Sites?

For new thread go to main page of the pellet mill and near the top will see "post new thread" button.

Welcome to the forum

P
I found info on woodheat.org outdoor combustion air requirments canada

1990 mandatory dropped in 1995 per article

 

[Harvey Schneider]

I have only done a cursory read of this document

http://www.woodheat.org/outdoor-combustion-air-in-the-canadian-national-building-code.html

It appears to apply to fireplaces not air tight stoves, either wood burning or pellet.
The reasoning for abandoning the requirement was that a fireplace will pull air from wherever it wants, because it is not sealed. A pellet stove is sealed and the rule never applied to it in the first place and the reason for abandoning the rule also does not apply.

 

[richg]

I had a Crappyfarter 1200 for a few years. It was of poor quality, heated sub optimally and was a general nuisance. The outside air fitting on this stove was about as helpful as opening a window. I installed a Harman P61A with an outside air kit and it was a definite step up. The outside air kit kept cold air from pouring into the house.

 

[1kzwoman]

I have only done a cursory read of this document

http://www.woodheat.org/outdoor-combustion-air-in-the-canadian-national-building-code.html

It appears to apply to fireplaces not air tight stoves, either wood burning or pellet.
The reasoning for abandoning the requirement was that a fireplace will pull air from wherever it wants, because it is not sealed. A pellet stove is sealed and the rule never applied to it in the first place and the reason for abandoning the rule also does not apply.