Thoughts on this build out?

[bholler]

So you don't have any prove it's not approved. Doesn't say anything that it can't be alcove. Show you pictures that nothing is hot on the walls. But ok...

Is there any diagram showing clearances in an alcove? No I don't have to prove anything. I read the manual. The spec isn't there so it doesn't exist. You can't just make something up because you think it's ok. Again regardless of the walls your floor is nowhere near spec.

And you showed pictures supposedly after 6 hours of normal operation. With not readings of the wood behind that cement board. Or the wood under the tile.

 

[Hogwildz]

So your telling me and everyone else that has a stove it's unsafe? I built a built out that surpasses everything in the manual and when burning the walls don't get hot at all with actually proof yet it's unsafe?

Time will tell whether it's "Safe or Unsafe". The thing is, most if us would not take the chance when it comes to something that could threaten our lives, or the lives of others in the home. What you consider "going beyond what is called for" is actually the bare minimum, if you elect to bypass even 1needed safety procedure.

BTW, 101 is not exactly cool for a wall that has drywall on the top half.
You asked for input, and now that you have gotten it, you are getting defensive to those that are offering you very sound advise.
If the specs call for 1" minimal nonflammable base, at whatever insulated value it calls for, that is the minimal.
That means cutting out the wood or PVC flooring or whatever it is, and setting a proper hearth extension.
In the photo you posted, that pad is barely going to contain anything on the sides. we can already see the ashes or whatever has come out and is laying on the pad, a few inches from the sides.

It takes very little to cause a house to burn to the ground. When it comes to burning, especially if you are seriously thinking of heating with a wood burner, it always pays to, meet ALL specs, and surpass them. Sure, you can build whatever you want, but whether its safe or not is another thing.

You've burned in a garage, with cold concrete floors for two years. Congrats. That's another possible hazard in itself.
You asked for input, you got it, then you fought the advise given. Many of us have been burning for many years, and continue to learn to hone our burning skills. Going into burning wood in ones home with a cavalier attitude, is never a good thing.

Maybe instead of getting all butthurt, after you asked for input, and so many took the time to offer some really good insight.
You should see past your pride, and realize these guys have nothing to gain by giving safe advice, and you have everything to lose by getting all upset and dismissing advise based on experience, and careful thought.
You won't get any more input from me, no worries. You already know it all and have it covered.

 

[Hoytman]

If you take this stove totally out of the equation and ask an inspector what this is he will likely say it’s an alcove or space for a zero clearance fireplace. He will also say…

It’s NOT a masonry fireplace…is, I think, the point BHoller was trying to make. He is correct in saying that.

Has nothing to do with your build by itself, but does after you install that stove in there.

I haven’t looked at install instructions for this stove, but if that cubby hole was a masonry fireplace there would likely be no issue.

I think there’s been several misunderstandings in this thread, and not all by the OP.

Ben, do let me know if I misrepresented what you were saying. What caught my attention was the discussion between you and brenndatomu about it not being safe for an insert…and it would not be. Inserts go into fireplaces.

Slow down guys (mods). Be patient with the guy. He may have totally misunderstood the difference between installing a stove in a masonry fireplace and an alcove for all I know.

I just know that I’m positive that’s not a masonry fireplace, so the install requirements will likely be for an alcove…because that is what it is. He’ll have to them follow those requirements to meet code.

 

[tyreese27]

Is there any diagram showing clearances in an alcove? No I don't have to prove anything. I read the manual. The spec isn't there so it doesn't exist. You can't just make something up because you think it's ok. Again regardless of the walls your floor is nowhere near spec.

And you showed pictures supposedly after 6 hours of normal operation. With not readings of the wood behind that cement board. Or the wood under the tile.

Is there any diagram showing clearances in an alcove? No I don't have to prove anything. I read the manual. The spec isn't there so it doesn't exist. You can't just make something up because you think it's ok. Again regardless of the walls your floor is nowhere near spec.

And you showed pictures supposedly after 6 hours of normal operation. With not readings of the wood behind that cement board. Or the wood under the tile.

I showed a picture of the back of the cement board at 84 degree's and the 2x4 was even cooler then that with the one inch gap. Under the stove was cool to the touch under the tile. But if you would like I can take more pictures or even videos of you don't believe me

 

[tyreese27]

If you take this stove totally out of the equation and ask an inspector what this is he will likely say it’s an alcove or space for a zero clearance fireplace. He will also say…

It’s NOT a masonry fireplace…is, I think, the point BHoller was trying to make. He is correct in saying that.

Has nothing to do with your build by itself, but does after you install that stove in there.

I haven’t looked at install instructions for this stove, but if that cubby hole was a masonry fireplace there would likely be no issue.

I think there’s been several misunderstandings in this thread, and not all by the OP.

Ben, do let me know if I misrepresented what you were saying. What caught my attention was the discussion between you and brenndatomu about it.

Well my insurance has approved it.

 

[Hoytman]

Well my insurance has approved it.

End of discussion, then. But I’d get their approval in writing in case something happened later on. Cover all your bases. A fire Marshall and an insurance inspector and adjuster might call into question just who in their company approved it.

Hard to reclaim family heirlooms after the fact though, especially photos.

(Coming from someone with very close ties to several insurance companies. Take it for what it’s worth to you.)

 

[bholler]

End of discussion, then. But I’d get their approval in writing in case something happened later on. Cover all your bases. A fire Marshall and an insurance inspector and adjuster might call into question just who in their company approved it.

Hard to reclaim family heirlooms after the fact though, especially photos.

(Coming from someone with very close ties to several insurance companies. Take it for what it’s worth to you.)

Very well said. Without a written waiver for the code violations the insurance company can absolutely still deny a claim.

But the whole point is to avoid a situation where a claim has to be made. Honestly I doubt the walls will be an issue. But the floor and it's lack of r value concerns me.

 

[Hoytman]

Usually there’s some spelling and grammatical errors because of auto correct when using this phone. I hope it all comes out ok…don’t have time to edit…

HOT Floor concerns are valid.

I will say this though…it’s early in the season and not all that cold out yet.

For later in the season…Regardless of codes a temp gun doesn’t often lie. I’d monitor it as temps fall and stove is used more, especially running it 500-650F…if IR gun temp readings are cool in the cold garage, and I mean cool, and the floor is cool inside , etc., etc., … ONLY running it while you are home … and while you are there to monitor it and can find out if temps remain cool, if they do then roll with it until you figure out if the install is 100% correct to you and everyone else directly involved. Your choice at that point if you change it. Regardless of codes if that set-up remains cool if we have a cold winter to run the stove hard, then it will highly likely always remain cool. Like I said, a temp gun doesn’t usually lie and doesn’t care about codes. You make that decision. not anyone else.

Most radiant stoves will warm surrounding floors some to just comfortable. Nothing should be so hot that if you lay your hand on it that you can’t leave it there. If you can’t leave your hand there then you have a major problem. Under the stove is a good indicator as well as in front of the glass in the floor.

My stove/hearth install isn’t to code. It runs cool to the touch all the time on surrounding hearth, hearth wall behind stove, floors around the stove and my stove pipe I can lay my hand on and leave it as long as I want to … BUT … I am running coal which, in my house for this big stove runs much cooler than a similar wood fire in this stove, exhaust is can leave my hand on it all the time, temps usually around 95-105F and my draft is good. I have an IR gun, two magnet thermometers, a mechanical thermostat that runs my stove, and I monitor my draft with a Manometer. All those tools work and don’t lie.

However…BIG HOWEVER…that does not make my install code compliant, legal, or safe to code specs.

All the tools do is help me make a decision on a calculated risk…that I decided I am willing to take. I would not be running my stove without those tools to help make that decision because then the risk to my family is even greater. The tools turn unknowns into information I can use to make an informed calculated risk.

I took the risk because I can’t afford to tear out an old hearth that wasn’t made non-legal until more recent code changes. (There is such a thing as grandfathered-in and up to code legal and there’s a difference between the two) No installation will remain up-to-date code compliant as long as the powers that be keep changing the codes for new homes. No one can afford to tear out thousands of dollars worth of existing hearth that worked for 40 years just to spend tens of thousands to replace it to meet a modern code. Only a fool changes his hearth all the time trying to satisfy some new code. It’s called chasing your tail.

Now, don’t mistake using an old stove (swapping it out for another old stove and not telling anyone you did it…still grandfathered in because no one knows you changed it) … don’t mistake using an old stove with an existing hearth…making the swap yourself, and confusing it with hiring someone to install a modern stove for you. It all (stove and hearth) must be updated for them to except the risk and liability of the new install, understandably.

As far as I know there is no stove police going around making sure everyone’s old stoves and hearths are compliant. In other words, no one is going around trying to disqualify still existing stove/hearth set-ups that likely passed older codes. No one goes around asking if everything in your home meets the latest and greatest new code. At least not yet. They (gubberment) already have too much of their nose in people’s business.

I already know what the risk is with my coal stove. It holds enough coal and can get way hotter than any wood fire, so hot you wouldn’t believe it if you ever witnessed a coal stove ash pan door left open unintentionally.

Having the tools to ensure it remains cool isn’t the same as operating compliant to code. Two different things.

 

[bholler]

Usually there’s some spelling and grammatical errors because of auto correct when using this phone. I hope it all comes out ok…don’t have time to edit…

HOT Floor concerns are valid.

I will say this though…it’s early in the season and not all that cold out yet.

For later in the season…Regardless of codes a temp gun doesn’t often lie. I’d monitor it as temps fall and stove is used more, especially running it 500-650F…if IR gun temp readings are cool in the cold garage, and I mean cool, and the floor is cool inside , etc., etc., … ONLY running it while you are home … and while you are there to monitor it and can find out if temps remain cool, if they do then roll with it until you figure out if the install is 100% correct to you and everyone else directly involved. Your choice at that point if you change it. Regardless of codes if that set-up remains cool if we have a cold winter to run the stove hard, then it will highly likely always remain cool. Like I said, a temp gun doesn’t usually lie and doesn’t care about codes. You make that decision. not anyone else.

Most radiant stoves will warm surrounding floors some to just comfortable. Nothing should be so hot that if you lay your hand on it that you can’t leave it there. If you can’t leave your hand there then you have a major problem. Under the stove is a good indicator as well as in front of the glass in the floor.

My stove/hearth install isn’t to code. It runs cool to the touch all the time on surrounding hearth, hearth wall behind stove, floors around the stove and my stove pipe I can lay my hand on and leave it as long as I want to … BUT … I am running coal which, in my house for this big stove runs much cooler than a similar wood fire in this stove, exhaust is can leave my hand on it all the time, temps usually around 95-105F and my draft is good. I have an IR gun, two magnet thermometers, a mechanical thermostat that runs my stove, and I monitor my draft with a Manometer. All those tools work and don’t lie.

However…BIG HOWEVER…that does not make my install code compliant, legal, or safe to code specs.

All the tools do is help me make a decision on a calculated risk…that I decided I am willing to take. I would not be running my stove without those tools to help make that decision because then the risk to my family is even greater. The tools turn unknowns into information I can use to make an informed calculated risk.

I took the risk because I can’t afford to tear out an old hearth that wasn’t made non-legal until more recent code changes. (There is such a thing as grandfathered-in and up to code legal and there’s a difference between the two) No installation will remain up-to-date code compliant as long as the powers that be keep changing the codes for new homes. No one can afford to tear out thousands of dollars worth of existing hearth that worked for 40 years just to spend tens of thousands to replace it to meet a modern code. Only a fool changes his hearth all the time trying to satisfy some new code. It’s called chasing your tail.

Now, don’t mistake using an old stove (swapping it out for another old stove and not telling anyone you did it…still grandfathered in because no one knows you changed it) … don’t mistake using an old stove with an existing hearth…making the swap yourself, and confusing it with hiring someone to install a modern stove for you. It all (stove and hearth) must be updated for them to except the risk and liability of the new install, understandably.

As far as I know there is no stove police going around making sure everyone’s old stoves and hearths are compliant. In other words, no one is going around trying to disqualify still existing stove/hearth set-ups that likely passed older codes. No one goes around asking if everything in your home meets the latest and greatest new code. At least not yet. They (gubberment) already have too much of their nose in people’s business.

I already know what the risk is with my coal stove. It holds enough coal and can get way hotter than any wood fire, so hot you wouldn’t believe it if you ever witnessed a coal stove ash pan door left open unintentionally.

Having the tools to ensure it remains cool isn’t the same as operating compliant to code. Two different things.

The only problem I have with the surface temp reasoning especially for the floor is that the surface of the floor is being cooled by convection. The underlying materials can absolutely be hotter. It also doesn't cover a worst case scenario of someone leaving the air open or a chimney fire. The tested clearances do.

As far as grandfathered in that is absolutely true old installs absolutely are. But once you install a new stove the install is no longer grandfathered. If you are installing an old stove yes you could claim it was always there. But if it's one made in the 90s or later you can't. Codes for stove installs havnt changed at all since the late 80s. And listed stoves have always just been required to be installed to manufacturers specs.

My concern with this install and most honestly is far less about legality and code compliance. But more with safety. And there are just to many assumptions being made about safety in this case which are not backed up by actual data and testing.

 

[bholler]

In addition being grandfathered in says nothing about the safety of the install. The same goes for the argument that nothing has gone wrong yet. I can't tell you how many times I have found charred wood when I opened up a wall. That tells me that wood was really close to ignition at some point and most likely would ignite at some point in the future

 

[begreen]

Closing thread. It's become a repeating loop and all that can be said has been said. Stay safe out there.