Thermal Storage Technology

[Hansson]

I think you're doing OK, Hansson. Your English is a lot better than most American's Swedish.

How far are you from Jönköping?

About 370 miles.

Have you been at Skogs Elmia exhibit?

Yes, I went to Elmia Wood about 4 years ago and the World Bioenergy Fair this past spring. If I can fit it into the budget, I'll be back again next summer for Elmia Wood again. And I hate to disagree, but based on what I saw at the World Bioenergy Fair, you guys are way ahead of us.

For example, we don't even have access to residential chip burners on this side of the Atlantic (yet), and wood gasification is just catching on. I drooled all over the exhibit hall floor when I saw the various boilers on display in Jönköping.

Anyway, a belated "welcome" to the Boiler Room.

Tnx
Are you going to this to?
(broken link removed)

 

[jebatty]

The interesting item on saw on the Laddomat website is the gravity plumbing of their boiler/storage system. Agreeing that the Laddomat appears to be the equivalent of the Termovar or other 3-way mixing valves with an integral circ pump, the gravity plumbing allows for the storage to function as an "automatic" overheat loop on power failure. It's ability to perform this function would be inversely related to the heat charge on the storage, especially the cold water return - thus the emphasis on maximizing stratification in the storage.

 

[AndrewChurchill]

I have a Harman PB105 pellet boiler. Would there be any benefit to adding storage to my system?

 

[pybyr]

Andrew- no significant advantage that I can think of, since with pellets, unlike solid wood, the fire can be turned on and off without losing much efficiency. In theory, longer burns (which storage assists) are more efficient with any combustion appliance, but in your case, I doubt the added efficiency would outweigh the cost and complexity of adding storage

 

[DaveBP]

Jim,
I don't know if it's also true of the Laddomat loading unit but the Termovar comes in 2 flavors, one with and one without a backflow preventer. The backflow preventer is a lightly weighted rubber diaphragm gate that will open when the circulator pump is off due to failure or power loss. This is to allow a pressurized storage system to thermosiphon, if the friction in the pipes is low enough. I don't think this a replacement for the emergency gravity dump but it wouldn't hurt to have more backup capacity for the dreaded power-out scenario. Tarm USA says this backflow preventer is not desirable for the non-pressurized systems they have been selling so they currently stock the solid casting model only. They will have the other in later this summer to go along with their move toward pressurized storage systems. It's nothing that couldn't be put together with a box full of standard plumbing fittings and components if you made sure the backflow preventer was lightly sprung to allow a low head flow. But it is an elegantly integrated setup. It's also about $600 but a third off during their Spring Sale.
Don't mean to sound like an expert insider. I'm new to all this stuff. I was over there this week to pick up my boiler and one of the techs showed me around and answered a swarm of questions. They may be closer to offering a pressurized storage package than rumor has it around this forum, too.

 

[Hansson]

Here is an video of how the Termovar works.
(broken link removed to http://www.baxi.se/visa_filer.asp?kategori=10)

Klick the termovar funktionsdemo
It`s in Swedish but can maybe be interesting anyway

 

[Willman]

Here is an video of how the Termovar works

Thanks Hansson for posting this link.

Excellent example of return protection. I could pick out a few words but would like to read it all in English. Maybe Baxi will offer an English speaking site someday.
Will

 

[EricV]

I think you're doing OK, Hansson. Your English is a lot better than most American's Swedish.

How far are you from Jönköping?

Heck, his English is better than some American's

His info is good too.

 

[muncybob]

Would be great if we had translation of the frames though! Great graphics to understand things a bit better for me...I've always likes pictures!

 

[DaveBP]

Is the system portrayed in this video just a conceptual schematic or do they actually feed the heating circuits THROUGH the top of the storage tank. You'd definitely want to minimize mixing in there so as not to get a large temp drop as the water went through the tank when the tank temp was low. Might work with radiant floors wtih low temp requirements. Maybe they have specialized fittings for this. Or maybe it's just a demo of the Tarm Loading Unit with a storage tank thrown in to make it look more like a typical Euro setup. Tarm USA is selling these now but not the version with the swinging flow check. They told me they will be getting them later in the summer or fall. He said the flow check was for pressurized storage systems. Beware; they cost $600; or $400 if you buy it during their spring sale with a boiler. Haven't compared prices yet but it basically is a Grundfos 1558 circulator, the termovar mixing valve to keep return temps to the boiler above a minimum temp., 3 ball valves, three temperature gages and a cast housing to put it all together.

 

[pybyr]

When I was first digging around the 'net for what I might be able to do for storage, I noticed someone here mentioned the Lochinvar tanks, and Lochinvar claims to have some sort of special baffle to minimize turbulence and maximize stratification.
(broken link removed to http://www.lochinvar.com/product.asp?cat=ST&cls=ALL&prod=80&ln=BARE#)
click on the "Lock-Temp Baffle" to see what they claim it does
Size-wise, the gallonages I'd need would've never fit down my cellar hatch, and I expect it'd have been a wallet-buster, but it'd be interesting to know how their baffle is designed