The usual: What to buy?

[ProPain]

I called those Toledo guys and they do have good pricing. I went shopping today at two dealers near Jackson, MI.
One said that they would install a Quadrafire 2700i with insulated liner and do-dads, tax, etc. for $3300.
The Hearthstone Morgan was a bit more money and also looked good.

I went to the next store and looked at Pacific Energy and Lopi. Lopi seemed like more money for not much - am I wrong?

I am having a bit of a hard time choosing between the Vista (about $1900 with the surround, blk door, tax)
and the next size up P.E. insert the D1. Again, I have about 1200 sq feet in a pretty leaky house. I like the idea of the separate
chamber for heated room air and would like to get fresh air to the burning chamber from outside.

The place in Toledo was about $1500 for the P.E. Vista not including tax - pay by cash or check. Thanks for the tip.

 

[begreen]

If PE, I'd go with the D1. The 2 cu ft firebox will give you longer burns and you don't need to run full bore all the time.

 

[KeithO]

Propain, I second going with the biggest stove you can afford and which will fit. I heated my entire home last winter with a Morso 7110 and it did a good job, but with 4 hours of good heat per load and some heat stretched over 6 hours, you will be busy day and night. Bear in mind I have a pretty tight home with good windows and I'm pretty well protected from the northerly winds.

The pacific energy stoves have a very good reputation (they are made by Canadians who have 9 month long winters and burn softwood, after all..). Cost wise - the plate steel stoves are more cost effective and you may not have to have the "asthetics" discussion with your wife...

Something else to consider is the "Blaze King" line of stoves. Not very pretty, but some of the best and most efficient slow burning woodstoves on the market. Catalytic stoves will always work better for slow burning than typical non - catalytic stoves. They take a smouldering fire and then burn the smoke in the catalytic combustor which is a nice stable process. The non catalytic stoves can only operate above a certain temperature and turn into smoke dragons if the temperature drops too low when fresh fuel is loaded.

Keith

 

[Jerry_NJ]

Still learning, and I have a new non-cat, so that's what I'll live with.

Keith, you say: "..smoke dragons if the temperature drops too low when fresh fuel is loaded." Does that mean that if one has a fire that dies out over night it will not have a "bad" smoke phase as the temperature drops..i.e., the hot coals will simply burn out? Or, is there also a bad phase to go through when the fire dies? A bad phase that doesn't happen in Cat stoves?

 

[KeithO]

Jerry, with new fuel one normally burns off the majority of the volatiles early on. The problem occurs when one is in too much of a hurry and cuts back the air too soon after reloading. Cat stoves also have to be burnt hot initially to get the catalyst to "light off". But from that point on one is in safe teritory with the cat stove, whereas things can easily go wrong in a non cat stove. I have had fires flame up suddenly and get to the point of overfiring fast or have the fire stall out and soot up the glass if I was in too much of a hurry.

With a normal combustion cycle, once the fire gets to the coaling stage the volatiles are gone and only carbon remains. Burning carbon (like anthracite) does not create creosote, if the air is cut back the primary problem is CO. One typically can't put in a catalyst to oxidise the CO into CO2 because the catalyst is poisoned by the sulphur in the coal. So unfortunately there is not much more that can be done to improve the state of the art in coal stoves..

Keith

 

[Jerry_NJ]

Thanks, I have burned a few tons of anthracite in my basement coal/wood stove, and understood there was no concern about creosote, but some for acid, sulphuric when water added.

So, if I read you correctly, if I am careful to run the stove up to (Keep it up to) a clean burning temperature until the load is (what?) fully light, then a cut back on air to prolong the burn should not cause a lot of pollution/creosote?

 

[jadm]

The chimney is about 30 ft.
.

I just had my second insert installed this past January. Having already had an insert I knew what I didn't want and I did have a clearer idea of what I did want.

When considering different inserts check out the manuals, either in the store or on line. I know many specify height of chimneys due to how well an insert will draft which effects it's efficiency

Keep researching and asking questions and you will learn a lot and be able to narrow your search down.

When having your choice installed be sure installer really knows what he is doing....My first installer did not and I didn't know he didn't know what he was doing....Another learning curve...

Have fun!

 

[ProPain]

More information. I spoke with "Dr. Flue" and he recommended Lopi.
He has put in lots of them and likes how well they hold up over time as he is the guy who
normally cleans out many stove brands and makes repairs when needed.

The thing is, I went and took at look the Revere and was not impressed with the way the door closed.
I also read another thread about a noisy motor. Both are negatives in my book.
I also read about the air pipes falling out of the Lopi Revere.

I asked him about Pacific Energy. He said they were good for a "welded plate steel" insert, but he didn't think
they were as robust as the Lopi. Well, Lopi has a two or three year warranty and the P.E. has a five year.
Of course, if he sells lots of Lopi, he probably gets them at a good price and since he sells at MSRP, he makes more $$$.

When questioned about outside fresh air to the firebox, he didn't think that it mattered much and Lopi does not offer that
capability. Hmmmm. He didn't know if P.E did.

I asked about the Quadrafire 2700i. "They're getting better" was the response.

He didn't say much about the Hearthstone Morgan.

I am still thinking about the P.E. D1. How do you guys think it will stack up against the Revere?

Again, I am thankful for all your great help.

 

[begreen]

I am still thinking about the P.E. D1. How do you guys think it will stack up against the Revere?

Again, I am thankful for all your great help.

Just fine. They're strong stoves and have long burn times. Stop by a shop that actually sells them and has them on the floor so you can look at one and try it out. The latch assembly is much simpler than the Jotul. But it works well.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

I looked at the Lopi and Jotul Rockland (a big boy) at a dealer. I got a price on the Jotul because I like the looks/feel and specs. I don't have any notes on the Lopi I looked at, but best I can remember they all seemed small..or something I didn't like.

I also looked carefully at Quadrafire and got a installed price on the 3100-I but later decided to go for the next one up, the 4100-I. I recall the 2700-I as a very small unit, have you looked at the 3100, or 4100? I think there's a $400+ step per model upgrade. Quadrafire does list price ranges on their web site, something else I liked.

 

[KeithO]

Jerry, sorry about the delay in replying. As you will find, it is important to keep an eye on a non catalytic stove at reloading time. Particularly if the wood you are burning is in the least way "suspect". Assuming the stove is not cold and there are some embers, and if the wood is good and dry, I will reload the stove, then open the ash door to get some air flowing into the fire from under the coals. This has been the best way to get the new load of wood lit off. I never leave the stove in this condition, I will sit right there for a few minutes and watch the flue thermometer climb (meaning re-establishing a good chimney draft). and once it is above the "creosote" mark I will close the ash door and be sure the primary air is fully open.

The stove manuals generally recommend opening the door, but I find opening the ash door works a lot better at getting the coals hot. The thing that makes reloading time unpredictable is the combination if increasing chimney draft, the new load of wood first sucking up heat and then starting to pour out volatiles and the fact that with the primary air open one gets very little secondary air flow out of the upper burn tubes. So during that initial phase after reloading one has to carefully respond to what is going on with the fire by closing off the primary air gradually as the temperature of the stove and flue comes up. This gets you the best secondary combustion, no smoke out the flue and happy neighbors, but also makes for a very hot fire that can easily get away from you if one does not pay attention. If you close it down too slowly you may get into an overfire condition, if too fast the fire can go out and soot up the stove and glass.

If your wood is just a bit damp it has a huge impact on the response time of the fire when you reload. If it is particularly dry, just the opposite. These are things one has to learn and adapt to. It becomes dangerous when one is in a hurry to get to work on time and thows on some wood that turns out to be damp, so one has to leave the air open longer to get it going and it is easy to forget about it and then 5 minutes later set off all the smoke sensors when the stove gets so hot that it outgasses some of the stove paint on the stove pipe or the stove body. I had a couple of mornings with all doors and windows open to clear the fumes from the stove paint with every smoke alarm in the house going off and sub zero wind blowing through the place... not fun.

Thanks, I have burned a few tons of anthracite in my basement coal/wood stove, and understood there was no concern about creosote, but some for acid, sulphuric when water added.

So, if I read you correctly, if I am careful to run the stove up to (Keep it up to) a clean burning temperature until the load is (what?) fully light, then a cut back on air to prolong the burn should not cause a lot of pollution/creosote?

 

[Jerry_NJ]

Thanks KeithO - now I understand you avatar :bug:

My Quadrafire doesn't have a ash door, it is an insert without an ash pan. It does have two air controls, I think one is open only when fueling the fire, like the ash door. I'll also read the owner's manual directions very carefully, sounds like these modern stoves require a bit of art and science to get the best results. In my old "slammer" insert, I just loaded..well I did watch and if the new wood didn't seem to be catching I'd open the double door a crack to allow more draft. That unit would smoke up the glass in one evening, so much so I couldn't even see if there was a fire going, I use the temperature guage as a guide to what was going on inside.

 

[ProPain]

Closing in on a purchase.

A dealer in Toledo has a couple of Pacific Energy Pacific model inserts. Out the door price is
just over $2000 including gold door, X-large flashing-gold trim for flashing and OHIO sales tax.

How does that sound to you guys?

Gracias!

PS This dealer says that new P.E. are going up 20%!

 

[begreen]

That's a good price, especially including sales tax. Is this a PE promo deal?
(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/pacins.htm)

 

[ProPain]

No, I think this dealer bought over 60 units and does a big volume of sales.