The Problem with VC Stoves

[BrowningBAR]

Hmmm - with all that build-up I wonder if you may have an air leak into your connector/chimney that is pulling cold air in and causing the smoke to cool and condense faster than it should? Still, in theory you shouldn't have that much crud making it past the cat, but perhaps if you have air leakage it is building up very fast during startup and reloads?

I have about three feet of double wall pipe, with two 45s that then goes into the lined and insulated chimney. The double wall pipe is only three years old, the 8" oval to 6" round double wall connector is new this year. All pipe connections fit tight.

 

[Diabel]

6" here wih no draft issues, total pipe length about 22' with two 45s

 

[BrowningBAR]

The Encore is 6" rear vented and then straight up 24'.

The Defiant is top vented with two 45s before it goes into the 90 for the chimney. Chimney is 24', also.

I think part of the problem is the two 45s and the 90, but it is unavoidable. I get some smoke spillage with this set up at times. But when the Defiant was top vented straight up for 18' and no bends, there was no smoke spillage ever. But, even with this problem, I can still easily get the stove over 700 degrees if I am not paying attention. The wood catches easily and quickly.

I just do not understand the extreme amount of build up. I'm home all day. It's not like I am choking it down at night and then all day when I am at work. There is only a 6-8 hour window when I am not checking on the stove. And even then, I know the cat is engaged and the air controls were not adjusted with a heavy hand.

I'd say the build up was worse than it was on the Vigilant. And the Vigilant used more wood. And it was poorer quality wood than what I am burning this year.

 

[Diabel]

I see this set up as problematic in terms of draft but not gunk build up.
How dirty is the flue where the encore is? Also, is the build up loose and flaky?

 

[STOVEGUY11]

The Encore is not the same beast that the Defiant is. On the encore you can take the oval 8" flue off and put on the 6" round option. Where as the Defiant has the oval 8" flue. To make that stove 6" you are using the oval 8" to 6" round adaptor. The reason you can not burn the stove with the doors open is because the volume of emissions out of the stove has been reduced. Meaning, if the doors are open smoke will come back into the house.The emissions out of the stove have been slowed. As the gases slow, they cool and collect and cause build up/creosote. I have taken defiants out of customers houses that were running them into 6" chimneys because they complained of poor draft and dirty chimneys. Once they replaced with 6" flue stoves, they had no problems. I am not saying that is the case here, but just sharing of experiences of 6" Defiants in the field.

 

[BrowningBAR]

The Encore is not the same beast that the Defiant is. On the encore you can take the oval 8" flue off and put on the 6" round option. Where as the Defiant has the oval 8" flue. To make that stove 6" you are using the oval 8" to 6" round adaptor. The reason you can not burn the stove with the doors open is because the volume of emissions out of the stove has been reduced. Meaning, if the doors are open smoke will come back into the house.The emissions out of the stove have been slowed. As the gases slow, they cool and collect and cause build up/creosote. I have taken defiants out of customers houses that were running them into 6" chimneys because they complained of poor draft and dirty chimneys. Once they replaced with 6" flue stoves, they had no problems. I am not saying that is the case here, but just sharing of experiences of 6" Defiants in the field.

That isn't entirely correct.
1. The 0028 Encore was never offered with a 6" round flue and only came in the 8" oval.
2. Neither, the Encore or the Defiant, can be burned with in fireplace mode when using a 6" pipe/liner.

 

[Hawkeye]

Not to rip on VC, but I had an encore for 7 yrs. Experienced a lot of the things you've listed above.

When we built a new house this last year, VC was not on my short list of stoves. I didn't overly "dislike" the Encore, but didn't like it enough to get another one.

Just my 1-1/2 cents.

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

Even when you are burning right (wood, stove temps, glowing cat), you still encounter hurdles that you should not have.

The Defiant's draft has been suffering. So, I pulled the pipe tonight to take a look. Massive amounts of build up.

A few things:

1. Wood is 2-3 years old. All Ash and Oak. I do not have a moisture meter, but, to put it in perspective, I have no problem getting the two cast iron stoves over 700 degrees and the 30 has hit 800 degrees.
2. The chimney was cleaned at the start of the season.
3. I do not have a Cat probe, but, the cat glows regularly so I know it is engaged.
4. I have not been choking down the stove. I have been running it at a higher temp.

So, I'll be cleaning the chimney tomorrow, and will seemingly need quite a large bucket to dump all the build up that I will be cleaning out.

A cat probe will be installed this off season and at least one mid-season cleaning will take place next year to be sure the build up is being held in check.

VC stoves have always seemed to me to be more complicated inside than most other stoves. With that said, if you're getting a massive buildup of creosote (not ash) then you're either not burning it hot enough, your wood has too much moisture in it, or a combination of both. I've seen VCs who's bypass damper was "glued shut" with creosote. Open the damper up and burn it hot on a regular basis. I alsways caution to make sure you're chimney is clean 1st so you don't start a chimney fire from the same kind of buildup in your chimney.

 

[BrowningBAR]

VC stoves have always seemed to me to be more complicated inside than most other stoves. With that said, if you're getting a massive buildup of creosote (not ash) then you're either not burning it hot enough, your wood has too much moisture in it, or a combination of both. I've seen VCs who's bypass damper was "glued shut" with creosote. Open the damper up and burn it hot on a regular basis. I alsways caution to make sure you're chimney is clean 1st so you don't start a chimney fire from the same kind of buildup in your chimney.

I'm already burning it at 700 degrees. How much hotter do you want me to get it?

The wood is 2-3 years old cut stacked and split.

The chimney was cleaned before the burning season began.

The firebrick inside the Defiant are clean with no creosote build up. The firebox is clean. The windows stay clean.

 

[raybonz]

The Defiant has double wall pipe that vents into the chimney that has a 6" liner with insulation. I think this is more of a VC issue than anything.

I have noticed that I can have the cat glowing and smoke still coming from the chimney. And, to be clear, the wood was 2-3 year old oak and ash. Same wood that is being thrown through the 30. Both stoves can get hot. The 30 can get to 800 if I let it and the Defiant can go over 700 if I want it to.

Next year I will have to check the pipe in December and then February to be sure this isn't happening again.

As it regards the 30, I have no complaints. Runs like I had hoped it would. I will always want longer burns, but the 30 is doing exactly what I wanted it to. I did waste a lot of wood trying to figure out what stoves to burn and when this year.

I had this issue with my CDW and finally upgraded to a secondary burn stove.. I have the feeling that some smoke is getting around the cat somewhere so it is not reburning and ending up as creosote..

Ray

 

[BrowningBAR]

I had this issue with my CDW and finally upgraded to a secondary burn stove.. I have the feeling that some smoke is getting around the cat somewhere so it is not reburning and ending up as creosote..

Ray

I think that's an accurate description of what is going on. I've tested the Encore and the Defiant at different temps while the cat is engaged and will still get smoke far too often. The Defiant's issues seems to take it to another level, though. Both stoves have the cat and assembly in very good condition. I've even swapped out the cats with the back up cat that I have. Same results.

 

[jharkin]

I have the same problems bbar. Lots of buildup this year and see visible smoke even when the cat is well over 1000F. I do have the probe and rarely have it below 1200 even with the air fully closed. Wood is 2 - 3 years CSS. stainless lined interior brick chimney.

I was thinking its the old refractory or an internal gasket gone bad and plan to do a partial rebuild. If that doesn't improve anything I will loose it.

 

[raybonz]

I think that's an accurate description of what is going on. I've tested the Encore and the Defiant at different temps while the cat is engaged and will still get smoke far too often. The Defiant's issues seems to take it to another level, though. Both stoves have the cat and assembly in very good condition. I've even swapped out the cats with the back up cat that I have. Same results.

Smoke/air will take the path of least resistance so the cat/bypass damper and stovetop have to be perfectly sealed so all smoke exits through the cat.. I might use a little more wood with secondary burn but the chimney liner stays clean.. To me it's a tradeoff I can live with after having one chimney fire which cracked my clay tile liner which didn't know happened then another in the SS liner which was a small one with no damage but that was enough for me to change to secondary burn with no issues..

Ray

 

[BrowningBAR]

Smoke/air will take the path of least resistance so the cat/bypass damper and stovetop have to be perfectly sealed so all smoke exits through the cat.. I might use a little more wood with secondary burn but the chimney liner stays clean.. To me it's a tradeoff I can live with after having one chimney fire which cracked my clay tile liner which didn't know happened then another in the SS liner which was a small one with no damage but that was enough for me to change to secondary burn with no issues..

Ray

I enjoy the burn times of the Defiant more than the 30. The temps stay higher, longer, throughout the course of the burn than it does on the 30. But, both have about the same total burn time.

Right now, the VC stoves need to last another 4-5 winters before I can even think of buying more stoves. I will just have to check the pipe more often and perform one or two mid-season cleanings to keep the problem at bay.

 

[raybonz]

I enjoy the burn times of the Defiant more than the 30. The temps stay higher, longer, throughout the course of the burn than it does on the 30. But, both have about the same total burn time.

Right now, the VC stoves need to last another 4-5 winters before I can even think of buying more stoves. I will just have to check the pipe more often and perform one or two mid-season cleanings to keep the problem at bay.

Good luck BB.. I would take a good look at the bypass damper for any leaks particularly where the bypass seals to the stove.. I'm sure you'll figure it out

Ray

 

[BrowningBAR]

Good luck BB.. I would take a good look at the bypass damper for any leaks particularly where the bypass seals to the stove.. I'm sure you'll figure it out

Ray

Already looked at the damper. It closes properly. I think it is the nature of the downdraft beast.

 

[lopiliberty]

Seems like a good reason to get two new stoves

 

[BrowningBAR]

Seems like a good reason to get two new stoves

Not for a few more years.

 

[Ashful]

Already looked at the damper. It closes properly. I think it is the nature of the downdraft beast.

I have two downdraft stoves. Just did my first mid-season cleaning on the less well-bahaved of my two stoves, which has burned 3 cords of mostly poorly-seasoned oak mixed with poplar, running pretty much 24/7 since at least Halloween. Not even a pint of creosote to be found in that flue. The 5/8" mesh cage at the top was still clean. There may be some inherent disadvantages of the downdraft design, but I do not believe creosote build-up is one of them.

 

[BrowningBAR]

There may be some inherent disadvantages of the downdraft design, but I do not believe creosote build-up is one of them.

No, but the inability to run them consistently from chimney to chimney seems to be an issue which could lead to creosote build up. I had smoke issues last year with the stove, but I thought it might have been the shorter chimney. I moved the stove to the taller chimney, while also inspecting the stove, and the build up has been the worse I have had in any stove I have operated. And that includes the first year running the Vigilant with wet wood.

There is absolutely no reason for the build up to be taking place. The stove is in correct operating order without leaks. The wood is properly dried. I am home all day and can be sure it is not smoldering. Meanwhile the 30 is using the same wood and has barely a fraction of the build up. I am beginning to feel it is the downdraft design that prevents the stoves from being consistent burners.

 

[Diabel]

BB, something else must going on with the big boy! Can you post a video of the smoke coming out the pipe while cat glowing/active.

 

[BrowningBAR]

BB, something else must be boing on with the big boy! Can you post a video of the smoke coming out the pipe while cat glowing/active.

I could but what would that prove other than I'm not making this up?

 

[Ashful]

Perhaps. You know better than I, that there have been quite a few draft-related complaints from downdraft owners. What surprised me is that my stove on the short chimney was not worse, but perhaps I should have my eye on the taller of my two chimneys. Maybe that one will surprise me when I do the spring cleaning.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Perhaps. You know better than I, that there have been quite a few draft-related complaints from downdraft owners. What surprised me is that my stove on the short chimney was not worse, but perhaps I should have my eye on the taller of my two chimneys. Maybe that one will surprise me when I do the spring cleaning.

It could also be VC's downdraft design.

Because I have been seeing more and more posts, both current and past, that have complained about smoke and creosote deposits piling up at the bottom of the pipe.

 

[Diabel]

I am just trying to brainstorm several issues at the same time. Mine, some smoke out the pipe while cat nicely glowing and some accumulation of creosote...nothing serious. And yours some smoke as you describe and buckets of misty stuff! Or maybe just fly ash...
I believe my refactory box is shot, where yours as you said is in good shape
Just thinking out loud...