The Philosophy of Heating Large or Drafty Homes

[OhioBurner©]

Un-insulated stone house with various additions totaling 6660 sq.ft., with lots of original windows and doors built in 1773, heated primarily by oil fired boiler.

Wow. I wouldn't even think of trying to heat that place to 70's by wood alone. I think back when it was built, it was probably heated to the point of 'we won't get frostbite if we stand by the fire' not running around in a t-shirt throughout.

My house is old, drafty, half uninsulated, and too large (by my standards, not yours!) and I burn 2 stoves in it and can't keep it even above 60ºF average on a cold and windy day (like we had most of last week). 1900 home about 2400 sqft or so of living space I think. Even the room my pellet stove is in, 10 feet directly across from the stove I've read wall temps in the 40's and 50's last week. I could stand within arms reach of the stove (beside it), which was set on 9 and about 800 degrees, and be chilled with a cold breeze heading towards the stove.

I just deal with it, wear a flannel shirt, sit in front of the stove to warm up when I can. The cold doesn't bother me much except when sleeping. I'll spend most of the day outside anyhow. Have had an empty propane tank since last winter, though I do occasionally use electric space heaters.

Have you ever thought about shutting most of that 6660sqft down for the winter? I couldn't imagine heating that much home unless I had the entire extended family living there or something. Judging by how much heat my place leaks on a 0º or less day, I'd say it would take 5-6 of my stoves to heat your place!

 

[Jags]

I am also in the camp of "the stove will do what it will do". I am a 20 x 7 burner (simply out of the house too much for 24 x 7). I don't get up in the middle of the night (if heat is called for), the furnace picks up the slack. My wood use reduces my propane use by over 1000 gallons per year. I am comfortable with this. I have been doing this (in this style) for about 14 years. 14,000 plus gallons of propane not consumed.

 

[Ashful]

We were actually heating with base board heaters, coudn't keep up, stove we had was to small

You can still put a heck of a dent in those oil bills, if you just keep the stove running. That was the point of this thread.

My house is old, drafty, half uninsulated, and too large (by my standards, not yours!)...

It's probably a little large by my standards, as well. However, when shopping old houses, you take what you find. We wanted an old masonry house that wasn't planted 10 feet off a major road (as most are), so when we found one on 4 acres on a quiet cul de sac, we grabbed it. It's definitely larger than we had planned to buy.

Have you ever thought about shutting most of that 6660sqft down for the winter? I couldn't imagine heating that much home unless I had the entire extended family living there or something.

This is exactly what I try to do. I keep the lowest level (we now call "basement", but it was living space for the original residents) baseboards set at 53F, as I'm the only one who really goes down there much, and I'm exercising when I do. We keep the suite on the third floor heated at 62F, and would go colder if the exposed stone wall didn't sweat when we tried, but my wife is constantly leaving the door up to the third floor open. The four zones covering first and second floor are on programmable T-stat's, set to 70F for about 6 hours per day, and 62F the rest of the time. The attached garage is only heated when I'm working out there. The studio above the garage is on an auto-changeover heat pump, set to 63F heat and 85F cool. The shop will be on the same auto-changeover system, set to 55F / 90F when I'm not out there, but then we're talking space way beyond the 6660 sq.ft. I mentioned before. I think we have 8160 sq.ft. total, 7860 of which can be heated, the remainder being one unheated garage of 300 sq.ft.

 

[markam]

You can still put a heck of a dent in those oil bills, if you just keep the stove running. That was the point of this thread.


It's probably a little large by my standards, as well. However, when shopping old houses, you take what you find. We wanted an old masonry house that wasn't planted 10 feet off a major road (as most are), so when we found one on 4 acres on a quiet cul de sac, we grabbed it. It's definitely larger than we had planned to buy.


This is exactly what I try to do. I keep the lowest level (we now call "basement", but it was living space for the original residents) baseboards set at 53F, as I'm the only one who really goes down there much, and I'm exercising when I do. We keep the suite on the third floor heated at 62F, and would go colder if the exposed stone wall didn't sweat when we tried, but my wife is constantly leaving the door up to the third floor open. The four zones covering first and second floor are on programmable T-stat's, set to 70F for about 6 hours per day, and 62F the rest of the time. The attached garage is only heated when I'm working out there. The studio above the garage is on an auto-changeover heat pump, set to 63F heat and 85F cool. The shop will be on the same auto-changeover system, set to 55F / 90F when I'm not out there, but then we're talking space way beyond the 6660 sq.ft. I mentioned before. I think we have 8160 sq.ft. total, 7860 of which can be heated, the remainder being one unheated garage of 300 sq.ft.

Sounds like a really cool house. My house is also constructed of 18" thick stone, but it is a baby compared to yours (only 90 years old and about 2000 sf). Stone may have some disadvantages, but it does provide great thermal mass. A day of sun helps my fireplace all night.

 

[Babaganoosh]

Joful, I'm surprised nobody has said it but....

This thread is worthless without pics. 6600 square feet? Let's see that baby

 

[Ashful]

This thread is worthless without pics.

Hah... there must be more photos of my house on this forum than any other house in this forum's history. How have you avoided them?

With my advance apologies to anyone who's been on this forum for more than a year, here's a few more:

 

[Diabel]

I have seen them all when posted, but I still enjoy seeing them. I love these houses!

 

[gyrfalcon]

There's probably quite a few of us with that mentality still around. During a cold snap I'd be happy if the avg temperature throughout the house was above 60. The room with the stove, 70-75, elsewhere 60's & 50's.

Boy, you sure sound like me. My house is a little older (1850-ish) and a little smaller (1,300 sf), but in a colder climate. My stove keeps the first floor nicely warm down to low teens, but when we get into low single digits and below, I settle for close to 70 in the stove room and mid-50s to 60s, so supplemented by little electric heaters when needed, in the rest of the first floor. One or two days, that's OK, but the longer the bad cold goes on, as it did last year, the colder the structure itself gets, and the the harder it is to keep that high 60s. I also prefer sleeping in the cold, so I have the stairs to the second floor closed off during the winter, keeping most of the heat down below where I want it.

Last year, when we had a couple spells from that "polar vortex" that kept temperatures in low single digits daytime and double-digit below zero nighttime for a week at a time, it was interesting to note that it took several days of outdoor temps in the high 30s and 40s before the heat generated by the stove stopped being mostly sucked up by the ice cold structure itself and the interior of the house really warmed up.

To me, the "philosophy" of heating an old and leaky house with a woodstove is closing off rooms/spaces I don't have to use, and being willing to live with the ups and downs and uneven temperatures across the rooms I do use.

 

[brad wilton]

rent out two stay in the nice one and let them pay for your heating

 

[Wolves1]

I'm new since November and I love them thank you for sharing.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I wouldnt want to pay for your heat or your property taxes. But it sure is one fine house (or 3 fine houses)

 

[Diabel]

Back to the deep freeze! Appliances are sharing duties once again. The philosophy helps me to eliminate the furnace noise and sleep better!
Cheers

 

[ailanthus]

Boy, you sure sound like me....One or two days, that's OK, but the longer the bad cold goes on, as it did last year, the colder the structure itself gets, and the the harder it is to keep that high 60s.

Interesting, it does sound like we get some very similar results.

I love VT, BTW. I spent 2 summers as a camp counselour in Plymouth...some of the best months of my life!! You get some real winter there, though!

 

[gyrfalcon]

Interesting, it does sound like we get some very similar results.

I love VT, BTW. I spent 2 summers as a camp counselour in Plymouth...some of the best months of my life!! You get some real winter there, though!

Yeah, real winter, although we get a lot more brief warm-ups and melting than we used to, which means-- icing! Snow is easy to deal with, ice not so much. I sometimes wish for a Zamboni to get up and down my sloped and curved drive.

I was thinking last night as the temp dropped to minus-12 and the cold outside felt like a big, ominous, malignant thing that was eager to crush me, how on earth the people who lived here 200 years ago survived it in leaky, uninsulated houses, however solidly built, and before there were even woodstoves but only a fireplace to huddle around. My Heritage stove kept up beautifully for a while when I was pushing it, but by the time I went to bed, the deep load of coals in the firebox was a real problem. Trying to burn them down a bit made the house temperature drop fast in that cold, and then difficult to build back up without repeating the problem.

Well, we got through it, but the cats were unhappy and hunkered down between the stove and the wall for much of the night before bringing their chilly selves up to bed.

Vermont is a beautiful state, but your Shenandoah Valley ain't chopped liver in the beauty department. I think the thing Vermont did 50 years ago of banning billboards and large roadside signs was truly a stroke of genius. Vermonters are so proud of the beauty of the landscape, a statewide candidate for major office a few years ago sank like a stone in the polls when he started putting up garishly ugly yard signs because people were so indignant at the visual desecration of the landscape. The guy was a lifelong Vermonter, but just didn't get it, and he slunk away to California after he lost the election badly.

 

[Simonkenton]

Great pics! What a palace. That is a beautiful house.
Can I rent a room for $300 a month? I will bring my own wood stove.

 

[Ashful]

Can I rent a room for $300 a month? I will bring my own wood stove.

lol... you'll need it! Luckily, we have a half dozen spare thimbles from which to choose.

 

[Simonkenton]

Is this house haunted? I am not goofing on you, I believe in ghosts. I lived in a house in Atlanta for 5 years that was haunted. If any of y'all went through what I did in that house, you would believe in ghosts too. That house was built in 1939.
Is your house haunted?

 

[Ashful]

Is your house haunted?

No. I have lived in a very "active" house before, and owned another as a rental that was a serious problem for several of the tenants in that regard, but this house is dead quiet. (pun intended)

 

[FirewoodAddict]

Hah... there must be more photos of my house on this forum than any other house in this forum's history. How have you avoided them?

With my advance apologies to anyone who's been on this forum for more than a year, here's a few more:

View attachment 150652 View attachment 150653

View attachment 150655 View attachment 150654

View attachment 150656

Nice, when can I come deer hunting???
I'm in central bucks and from the looks of it so are you. I'm getting my Clydesdale installed in about oh, an hour and a half I already have the kindling ready for the break in!! T minus 1 hour 21 minutes!

 

[eclecticcottage]

Here's my .02. I have a SMALL drafty house, which has its own set of problems, the largest (lol) of them being space. We don't have central heat, or a furnace.

The basics because I like a backstory on info:
Built as a summer cottage, added onto (living room) in either the 60's or 70's and turned into a full time residence. Original portion has old wood windows (two that predate the build date I'm sure) with aluminum storms that stay on year round (screens for summer). These ARE staying. They aren't actually all that leaky, despite what people say about old windows. I do need to do some work to them and reglaze some too. Addition has one older casement and one replacement (but still older) Anderson vinyl window and two newer sliders. Some wall insulation. When it was converted to a residence, boiler and baseboard heat was installed-when we bought it there was freeze damage and it was all junk. Just this past fall we did a lot of sealing and put down a layer of attic blanket, it helped a LOT. But we're still drafty. Before the sealing we lost 6,000 (cfm?) per hour per an energy audit. I'd love to get an updated number.

We heat until the low teens with just the wood stove. Once we hit single digits or have high winds in the teens (above 25 mph) we light the VF in the dining room to supplement the stove. I'd rather not have to but last year during the polar vortex we didn't have LP in the tank for it and we hit 49 in the stove room, with the stove running 700 degree top temps (and two electric heaters in the front rooms). It was brutal. I imagine with the sealing we've done we would be able to maintain higher temps now but I don't want a repeat of that!

I'd like a DV LP stove in our sunroom once it's rebuilt to serve as back up more than the VF, but I don't know if we'll ever be able to heat 100% with wood 100% of the time here. Even once we complete more sealing.

So, my thoughts are...seal, seal, seal and seal some more. Insulate where possible. Then come to terms with the fact that you live in a sieve and do what has to be done to be warm. Back up heat is ok sometimes! And size your stove accordingly-those "heats x-x sq ft" doesn't apply to drafty houses!

 

[Ashful]

Nice, when can I come deer hunting???
I'm in central bucks and from the looks of it so are you. I'm getting my Clydesdale installed in about oh, an hour and a half I already have the kindling ready for the break in!! T minus 1 hour 21 minutes!

Grew up in CB, but we only have one farm left in Central Bucks (New Hope 48 acres), and it's now surrounded by McMansions on all sides. I only have a few acres here in Mont.Co., big enough for archery, but not shotgun. When I was a kid, we had almost 400 continuous acres in New Hope, and you better believe I did some deer hunting there.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Electric-- I agree entirely about those aluminum storm/screen windows. People sneer at them, but if they were put on properly, they don't leak at all. This is my second old house with probably '60s or '70s-era aluminum-framed storm/screens. Their major disadvantage compared to newer windows is that the glass itself gets colder than you'd like, not that they're drafty or leak air. I deal with that by having thermal curtains I pull closed overnight when the temperature really goes down so most of the colder air is contained within the window frame.

 

[Ashful]

Electric-- I agree entirely about those aluminum storm/screen windows. People sneer at them, but if they were put on properly, they don't leak at all. This is my second old house with probably '60s or '70s-era aluminum-framed storm/screens. Their major disadvantage compared to newer windows is that the glass itself gets colder than you'd like, not that they're drafty or leak air. I deal with that by having thermal curtains I pull closed overnight when the temperature really goes down so most of the colder air is contained within the window frame.

Get much condensation on those cold windows, when humid and warm room air infiltrates curtains? That's the primary trouble I had with them, in the past. It's frustrating to see your interior sash paint get damaged by condensation.

The only way to keep things dry is to have your inner-most barrier be the most air-tight, basic vapor barrier to warm side concept. This is why tight fitting storms over drafty windows is usually a bad idea. Get the windows tight, and then put storms outside. Alternatively, put airtight storms on the inside.

 

[FirewoodAddict]

Grew up in CB, but we only have one farm left in Central Bucks (New Hope 48 acres), and it's now surrounded by McMansions on all sides. I only have a few acres here in Mont.Co., big enough for archery, but not shotgun. When I was a kid, we had almost 400 continuous acres in New Hope, and you better believe I did some deer hunting there.

Nice! Yeah the farms are dwindling down to nothing, can't afford the taxes so it doesn't pay to till em'. Now they put 8000 sq ft homes on a 8001 sq ft lot, can't sneeze without your neighbor yelling God Bless you! Same here, I can only archery hunt but it's good hunting, not much pressure. Good luck with the house, my brother just moved into a 1764 farm house... needless to say he's installing a T5 Alderlea!

 

[gyrfalcon]

Get much condensation on those cold windows, when humid and warm room air infiltrates curtains? That's the primary trouble I had with them, in the past. It's frustrating to see your interior sash paint get damaged by condensation.

The only way to keep things dry is to have your inner-most barrier be the most air-tight, basic vapor barrier to warm side concept. This is why tight fitting storms over drafty windows is usually a bad idea. Get the windows tight, and then put storms outside. Alternatively, put airtight storms on the inside.

Nope, have never had a lick of that, and the interior windows ain't exactly new.

The only issue they've given me is that the storms themselves develop a thin coating of frost in the unheated 2nd floor rooms. I solved that in my bedroom by not putting the storms down. And despite the age of the windows, I'm getting no draft at all from them. So they must have been made well to begin with.

I actually think smaller, old homes, especially in the north, were often built a hell of a lot more solidly than newer ones or larger old ones. There's a very elegant large 1790s house "next door" -- ie, 1/4 mile up the road -- that was built right on the very top of the ridge, and the folks who live there now say it's drafty as hell and the wind in the winter roars right through it up there. My modest little farmhouse half the size was nestled on the SE side of the same ridge, protected from both N and W winds. The farmers who built my place 175 years ago couldn't afford the ego-boo of living in a grand big place on top of the ridge, and they were, I'm sure, a hell of a lot warmer in the winter than the fancy people who built where they could dominate the landscape. (And it may well be that builders in those days were just as willing to take advantage of foolish people with more money than sense as they are today.)